A Step Too Far

I watched The Military Summary's latest report on the war in Ukraine yesterday where he reported on the likely probability that the US and NATO were planning to authorize the supply and use of one of the US's latest air to surface cruise missiles. These cruise missiles can be carried and launched from the F-16s now being supplied to Ukraine.

This news is also being reported by Newsweek just 2 days ago. Newsweek

ashington is close to a deal in which it will give Kyiv long-range cruise missiles that can strike deep into Russia, it has been reported

Unnamed officials cited by Reuters said that Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSMs) will be part of a weapons package that is expected to be announced this fall, pending a final decision.

The new acquisition is the AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (AGM-158 JASSM). It has a range, depending on the variant, of 230 mi (370.4 km) up to 575 mi (925 km) with a 1,000 Lb. armor penetrating warhead with limited stealth capabilities. These missiles cost roughly $1.66 million dollars each for the oldest versions.

The distance from the Ukrainian border to Moscow is approximately 300 miles. This means a NATO supplied F-16 has the capacity to strike Moscow with one of these missiles. At the least, they would have the capacity to destroy the nuclear powerplant at Kursk.

If the United States and NATO insanely authorizes the use of these weapons deep into Russian territory, that will be a red line crossed without the possibility to step back from. The use of these weapons on Russian territory will be the step too far that could likely lead to nuclear escalation.

This US administration is insane. They are going to get us all killed, for no justifiable reason.

a reply to: charlest2

Russia has used foreign made weapons to attack civilian targets in Ukraine, including Kyiv.

And here I thought this thread was gonna be about the thermite-bearing anti-personnel drones Ukraine has decided to use.

Good times.

a reply to: charlest2

I find it offensive that the average westerner hasn't got a clue on how close they are from oblivion . Like mushrooms they are living in the dark and getting fed BS. because if they realized they would be horrified and get off their couches and do something. Without NATO involvement Moscow would not be getting bombed. Bombing Moscow is not a good idea for whoever does it.

originally posted by: annonentity
a reply to: charlest2

I find it offensive that the average westerner hasn't got a clue on how close they are from oblivion . Like mushrooms they are living in the dark and getting fed BS. because if they realized they would be horrified and get off their couches and do something. Without NATO involvement Moscow would not be getting bombed. Bombing Moscow is not a good idea for whoever does it.

Is bombing Kyiv OK?

a reply to: annonentity

Makes one wonder if humanity IS worth saving.

ca reply to: charlest2

We have to get rid of the old ones so that they can be replaced with newer ones.

IRAN is resupplying Russia with ballistic missiles. the JASSM's will be used to take these out.

a reply to: charlest2

I find some of the thinking used to not getting into a war is utter trash.
Moscow is one man wanting to conquer the world as did Hitler.
The world saw how appeasement went in that game.
When the crazy one is definitely not rational in the normal sense--and draws his own red lines,
sometimes you have to take off your shirt to prove that you are your own man/country.
Ukraine is doing just that, and the rest is standing around slack-jawed.
Man Up, People!

I am against both sides in this war. I cannot muster any good feelings for either leader.
I also feel sorry for all innocent people caught up in this.

That out of the way.

Are there any female leaders right now wanting to try out nuclear weapons?
I know rhat some blame the state of the world on women leaders, forgetting entirely the word 'woke' before women.
Yet here we have angry men, with their toys seemingly itching to use them...on innocent people.

I am frankly fed up with this man crap. However I do know at least that this man crap can also save us, if there are still heroes out there, knights, good guys.
Which I believe there are.

Personally however I have long given up worrying. I'm old(ish) now and nope, none of this makes me afraid. They are frigging idiots alive, dead or if they survive the use of their man-toys.
So feck it all.

a reply to: charlest2

Your government just facilitates the free market. Those are just consequence of that unchecked free market Why aren't you proud?

a reply to: charlest2

Get us all killed, you act like that is not their plan...

Releasing violent murderers and rapist's back on streets, importing violent criminals from foreign countries, defunded police in inner cities where re needed most, shall I go on with how the so called elected representatives are letting death take over the streets?

As if a war would hinder their plans...

Once you realize that our so called leaders want us controlled like a herd of compliant sheep, everything else makes sense.

Taking off your shirt to prove your a man?

Your not a man are you. 😂🤣

a reply to: CosmicFocus

Misandrist gunna hate.

a reply to Hecate.

originally posted by: annonentity
a reply to: charlest2

I find it offensive that the average westerner hasn't got a clue on how close they are from oblivion . Like mushrooms they are living in the dark and getting fed BS. because if they realized they would be horrified and get off their couches and do something. Without NATO involvement Moscow would not be getting bombed. Bombing Moscow is not a good idea for whoever does it.

We are very aware, but there's a process for switching the tracks, so to speak. And yes there's thousands of volunteers nationwide for that exact purpose.

originally posted by: Hecate666

Are there any female leaders right now wanting to try out nuclear weapons?
I know rhat some blame the state of the world on women leaders, forgetting entirely the word 'woke' before women.
Yet here we have angry men, with their toys seemingly itching to use them...on innocent people.

I am frankly fed up with this man crap.

Is this really a man vs. woman issue?
There are plenty of female war hawks.

Hillary loved using those big bombs against...anyone.
Kamala is 100% behind giving more big boom-booms to Ukraine.

Nancy Pelosi is bombed most of the time.

My generation grew up under the constant threat of nuclear war. We got used to it.
I'm honestly not to worried about Putin doing something stupid until he gets backed into a corner that he can't see an exit. Motivating him to end the war has to happen but there needs to be a little care before pushing to far.

A missile blow up a Russian airfield is probably fine but a miss killing hundreds of civilians could spark something.

Looks like you have have soaked up all the bs.
What a good little mushroom you are.

a reply to: CosmicFocus

I sometimes wonder these days if anyone still really believes in the MAD doctrine. I think the world's superpowers do (against each other), but I honestly question whether some of the proxy states do.

I know this sounds crazy, but let's imagine what might happen here. Ukraine launches some JASSM's deep into the Russian homeland and the worst possible scenario happens...a couple of them miss and hit major civilian populations, killing hundreds or even thousands of Russian civilians. Russia responds with theater nukes on Kyiv and elsewhere. Okay, what then??

The US isn't going to retaliate and nuke Russia directly, and the World knows Ukraine has little, if any, remaining nukes. NATO isn't going to respond because Ukraine isn't a NATO country (yet); they'd be beyond foolish to do this.

Just as a little side show, Iran seizes on the opportunity to nuke Tel Aviv, and Israel responds in kind by nuking Tehran. At the same time North Korea decides to nuke South Korea and/or Japan. Now what?

I think at this point there is a big pause as the World now sees the reality and horror of nuclear weapons in the modern era (society is too distant from Hiroshima and Nagasaki to remember), and the weapons today are vastly superior to those in 1945. All of a sudden a nuclear catastrophe has been unleashed, but only in a limited arena. A major joint China, US and Russian warning goes out to the world...STOP! OR WE WILL STOP IT!

Any further escalation results in an end to the war in Ukraine (Russia wins), Iran gets wiped off the map (or sent back to the stone age), and North Korea gets nuked into orbit by both the US and China. China, otherwise, stays largely out of the whole fracas.

Here's kind of the bottom line...The US giving Ukraine long-range strike weapons is a mistake of Biblical proportion, and it is an open invitation for Russia to nuke Ukraine. This is a colossal mistake, the magnitude of which the US will realize and see the error of its ways. The events which follow are out of the US and/or any other world power's control, but Armageddon isn't (out of their control).

That's the "red line" as I see it. I hope it never comes to this, I truly do, but this is the reality of the situation right now.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I don't think MAD would happen if Russia was to use tactical nukes on Ukraine.

Certainly not automatically, like might happen if they proper nuked, say, the UK or any NATO country.

But I don't want to find out for real.

But yes, things can spin out of control.

If Iran did this to Israel, Iran would be destroyed, not sure if Iran is capable of destroying Israel.

But I'm no expert.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
I sometimes wonder these days if anyone still really believes in the MAD doctrine. I think the world's superpowers do (against each other), but I honestly question whether some of the proxy states do.

I know this sounds crazy, but let's imagine what might happen here. Ukraine launches some JASSM's deep into the Russian homeland and the worst possible scenario happens...a couple of them miss and hit major civilian populations, killing hundreds or even thousands of Russian civilians. Russia responds with theater nukes on Kyiv and elsewhere. Okay, what then??

The US isn't going to retaliate and nuke Russia directly, and the World knows Ukraine has little, if any, remaining nukes. NATO isn't going to respond because Ukraine isn't a NATO country (yet); they'd be beyond foolish to do this.

Just as a little side show, Iran seizes on the opportunity to nuke Tel Aviv, and Israel responds in kind by nuking Tehran. At the same time North Korea decides to nuke South Korea and/or Japan. Now what?

I think at this point there is a big pause as the World now sees the reality and horror of nuclear weapons in the modern era (society is too distant from Hiroshima and Nagasaki to remember), and the weapons today are vastly superior to those in 1945. All of a sudden a nuclear catastrophe has been unleashed, but only in a limited arena. A major joint China, US and Russian warning goes out to the world...STOP! OR WE WILL STOP IT!

Any further escalation results in an end to the war in Ukraine (Russia wins), Iran gets wiped off the map (or sent back to the stone age), and North Korea gets nuked into orbit by both the US and China. China, otherwise, stays largely out of the whole fracas.

Here's kind of the bottom line...The US giving Ukraine long-range strike weapons is a mistake of Biblical proportion, and it is an open invitation for Russia to nuke Ukraine. This is a colossal mistake, the magnitude of which the US will realize and see the error of its ways. The events which follow are out of the US and/or any other world power's control, but Armageddon isn't (out of their control).

That's the "red line" as I see it. I hope it never comes to this, I truly do, but this is the reality of the situation right now.

Western countries almost certainly would respond to Russia using nuclear weapons.

It would be catastrophic for the West if Putin believed he could use nuclear weapons without response and would likely result in massive conventional response from NATO. This would result in Russia's defeat in Ukraine in a matter of weeks.

Putin would then have to decide if he wanted to escalate further in knowledge this would involve the destruction of Russia.

China would also most likely cut off support for Russia, as the use of nuclear weapons against a non nuclear state is completely against Chinese strategic interests.

Putin has shown he has no regard for civilian lives or his own forces. He is not using nuclear weapons as it against his own interests, not humanitarian grounds.

If Putin is insane enough to go nuclear it doesn't matter much what Ukraine does so why not let them defend themselves properly in the hope that saner voices in Moscow prevail.