Donald Trump says he would encourage Russia to attack Nato allies who pay too little

originally posted by: Kenzo

Well the treaty just doesn't work as Trump seem to think . The 5th article is not bound to how much each country use their money to their own defense . Some countries use less than the 2% of GDP, and some more than 2% .....yet they are in same line when it comes to 5th article .

And i dont like how Trump is acting like mafia boss, asking "pizzo" ...Protection money .

Then that needs to change, or maybe we get out... How about them apples? If Trump doesn't push back then no one will. Being hard on China, NATO, and trade agreements isn't a bad thing. Especially when they were messed up in the first place. You should be thanking him, but you are worried about acting tough.

Would you rather him all nice say...pretty please increase your military spending, but if you don't we got your back still, so no worries. I'm sure that would work.

originally posted by: JinMI
Lol.

My debate skills, as little and shallow that they be, are more than adequate to curtail the demonstrated intelligence.

Its because of you and Sookie that I may even have a notion of the possibilitity of being intelligent.

No clue what your political side is, I would at least say leaning left, but the funny part is how I know when someone is far left.

Sooner or later in their discussions, they say how smart they are patting each other on the back in agreement while saying how dumb everyone else is. It's like clockwork as to how their post-progression plays out.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Imhere

How many generals and other top-tier personal has Putin had ""replaced"" or ""disappeared"" since this debacle began?

Nothing is clear about the conflict Imhere.

And if its major blows you are after, of the 360,000 troops that made up Russia's pre-invasion ground force, they have lost 315,000 on the battlefield.

Then there are the 11,822 armored personnel carriers and 6,348 tanks that have been destroyed which cannot be realistically replaced.

Also what happened to the Russian cruiser Moskva and lately the Corvette Ivanovets?

What this has proven is that Russia's forces are antiquated and a former shadow of themselves and nothing more than a paper tiger of sorts imho.

Take another look.

Ukraine is losing with now 3 major blows in a row.

No amount of pointing at Russian loses changes that.

Zelensky is stubbornly holding Avdiivka for “PR points” because the excuse is for the upcoming “Putin/Russia’s election”

Putins getting reelected regardless if Avdiivka folds by then or not.

Now Zelensky has 3000+ UA troops are getting trapped in the pocket.

This is one of the reasons Zelensky ousted his top and most popular general last week.

Yet, wants more monies, donations and “aid” sent to his corrupted regime?

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

new invented independent states who we are led to believe in the west desired independence

Is this the Putin version of 'history'

I'd class it as neo colonial activity by the western PTB. Been going on for hundreds of years they always get taken by one side or the other

The only colonial actions going on in Ukraine are by Russia trying to reform its empire.

and that is blatantly not true. Michael Portillo stated recently on GB News that it was accepted by both the West and Russia that there would be no movement of NATO influence into Ukraine. Non whatsoever. When NATO moved in Russia had to respond.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Why do you take things to absurdity every time? The original question was what would Trump do, and I replied he said he wants to stop people from dying... end of story.

With all due respect, I think this is you taking things to absurdity. What you've written in your several recent posts is political science-fiction. The forced peace between Ukraine and Russia will not save any lives. Russia will wait a few years and will attack Ukraine again. Ukraine ceding one third or even half of its territory will not appease Russia just like annexation of Crimea, which Trump supported or at least didn't object to (cuz "he wanted to save lives") didn't appease it.

And Russia will never let what will remain of Ukraine to join NATO. This is out of the question and everyone with some basic knowledge of Russian international politics knows that. Russia hardly stomached the Eastern Europe countries joining NATO and it was under Yeltsin's reign back then, who was far more lenient than Putin. I remember the vehement protests and the country was weak still suffering the consequences of the USSR dissolution, not a strong imperial autocratic regime like it is today.

Now something about "no pay, no protection". The countries on NATO eastern flank pay more because they border with Russia and therefore are in more danger than Germany and the rest of Europe. It's quite obvious that by protecting the Eastern flank NATO protects the whole of Europe. So how does Trump want to throw Germany to Russian polar bears without sacrificing the countries of Eastern Europe? If Russia ever decides to move deep into Europe, will it miraculously omit Eastern countries because Trump wills it? Will Trump phone Putin and say:

"No no Bro, don't attack Poland or Baltic countries. They are paying their bills and I must protect them."
Putin: "But I want to go to Berlin. Half of Germany is Russian. I want my lands back."
Trump: "Oh Germans. You can have them. They don't pay."
Putin: "I have to move my army through Poland but Mr President, I will be a good boy and won't touch anyone there. We will move peacefully causing no harm. Peace."

See any logic here? Tell you what. Trump is an idiot with the brain of a baby monkey. I initially thought he was a Russian pawn but he's too stupid even for that. Too bad he's also unpredictable. If I recall properly he suggested once bombing Russia using jets with the Chinese flag painted on them. Anyway, you can brace yourself for the war with China. Xi's appetite for annexing Taiwan is getting stronger. Considering Trump's hostility towards China, I'm afraid he won't be so keen on "saving lives."

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

new invented independent states who we are led to believe in the west desired independence

Is this the Putin version of 'history'

I'd class it as neo colonial activity by the western PTB. Been going on for hundreds of years they always get taken by one side or the other

The only colonial actions going on in Ukraine are by Russia trying to reform its empire.

and that is blatantly not true. Michael Portillo stated recently on GB News that it was accepted by both the West and Russia that there would be no movement of NATO influence into Ukraine. Non whatsoever. When NATO moved in Russia had to respond.

Joining NATO is voluntary and Ukraine wasn't even close to joining.

Russia has invaded Ukraine twice in ten years.

Russia is the only one acting like a colonial power.

a reply to: Xtrozero

This treaty goes back long time, many decades ....it doesn't , or should not change every 4 year as as who get`s elected to white house , it`a contract/agreement between goverments / countries both side Atlantic . What good is a contract if the parties wont honour it....like what happened in Ukraine where Russia did not honour the border agreement/treaty .

And if the US people want to give an signal that you want out from NATO , it`s your decision then.

Trump giving signals to Russia that he might not honour the 5th article is such a move that others loose trust to US .

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

new invented independent states who we are led to believe in the west desired independence

Is this the Putin version of 'history'

I'd class it as neo colonial activity by the western PTB. Been going on for hundreds of years they always get taken by one side or the other

The only colonial actions going on in Ukraine are by Russia trying to reform its empire.

and that is blatantly not true. Michael Portillo stated recently on GB News that it was accepted by both the West and Russia that there would be no movement of NATO influence into Ukraine. Non whatsoever. When NATO moved in Russia had to respond.

Joining NATO is voluntary and Ukraine wasn't even close to joining.

Russia has invaded Ukraine twice in ten years.

Russia is the only one acting like a colonial power.

Anybody who has been watching the western war hawks flying into Kiev over the past twenty years knows that colonisation by NATO was on the cards. Ben Wallace was flying into Kiev relentlessly. This went completely against what Portillo was a gentlemen's understanding that NATO would never get involved in moving into Ukraine. All the signals were there. Russia had to go in before the inevitable colonisation.

How about the US own constitution ?

That’s because Article VI of the Constitution declares, "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States ... and all Treaties made" are the "supreme Law of the Land." Trump is not just saying that he will break treaty obligations to U.S. allies and hand them over to Russia, he is flat-out saying that he will break the law. Because treaties are law. Failure to abide by the obligations of Article 5 would be the gravest possible betrayal of our allies and a direct failure to uphold the Constitution of the United States. It seems like someone should be making a big deal about this. But that doesn’t seem to feature in the coverage.

Trump's threat to abandon NATO allies is worse than it seems

Article VI - Supremacy and Oaths

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

new invented independent states who we are led to believe in the west desired independence

Is this the Putin version of 'history'

I'd class it as neo colonial activity by the western PTB. Been going on for hundreds of years they always get taken by one side or the other

The only colonial actions going on in Ukraine are by Russia trying to reform its empire.

and that is blatantly not true. Michael Portillo stated recently on GB News that it was accepted by both the West and Russia that there would be no movement of NATO influence into Ukraine. Non whatsoever. When NATO moved in Russia had to respond.

Joining NATO is voluntary and Ukraine wasn't even close to joining.

Russia has invaded Ukraine twice in ten years.

Russia is the only one acting like a colonial power.

Anybody who has been watching the western war hawks flying into Kiev over the past twenty years knows that colonisation by NATO was on the cards. Ben Wallace was flying into Kiev relentlessly. This went completely against what Portillo was a gentlemen's understanding that NATO would never get involved in moving into Ukraine. All the signals were there. Russia had to go in before the inevitable colonisation.

Ben Wallace became the secretary of state for defence 5 years after russia first invaded.

And again joining NATO is voluntary, something countries want to do because Russia still acts like a colonial power.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Ben Wallace has been 'visiting' Ukraine for decades. He is trouble number 1 for world peace. Ukraine and NATO made moves to get close, hence Russia moved in, especially after the western backed coup in 2014. You will never accept that there is a balance of power in this world that needs respecting. Ukraine is absolutely non of Britain's interest whatsoever. We have no religious, ethnic, linguistic, economic, historic, cultural links to this land of the Slav's. Non of our business whatsoever.

a reply to: Imhere

""reelected"" with 99% of the ""vote"" methinks.

I don't need to take another look as the facts, numbers and figures which you have simply chosen to disregard speak for themselves.

Russia has made an arse of their failed land grab good and proper which again failed on day 3.

And in the process have become the European pariah for the foreseeable future.

Putin will fail to return Russia to anything reminiscent of the former Warsaw Pact.

As to more monies, yeah they always have more money for war, that's just a fact of the matter.

Zelenskyy is not in the wrong postcode that would be Putin's invasion farce.

Have a nice day.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Ben Wallace has been 'visiting' Ukraine for decades. He is trouble number 1 for world peace. Ukraine and NATO made moves to get close, hence Russia moved in, especially after the western backed coup in 2014. You will never accept that there is a balance of power in this world that needs respecting. Ukraine is absolutely non of Britain's interest whatsoever. We have no religious, ethnic, linguistic, economic, historic, cultural links to this land of the Slav's. Non of our business whatsoever.

Yes I am sure in his role as under secretary of state for Northern Ireland he would definitely be the NATO point man to Ukraine. Or maybe not.

I think we need to respect the rights of independent democratic countries to make their own decisions and not be invaded by brutal dictators like Putin.

That you don't is telling.

a reply to: andy06shake

Only 99%?!!!

Who is running against him?

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

He was our Defence Minister and he also served in the Army.

Is Donald Trump president? No. So why the f'k are we talking about him? Because we have a current president in such cognitive decline I bet he could not find Ukraine on a map and he is supposedly in charge.

Simply put, the issue is the US pays more than the rest combined. Why? It is not our country. We can help but we should not be the main funding source.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

He was our Defence Minister and he also served in the Army.

Yes in 2019 I said that According to UFO he has been visiting Ukraine for decades to get them to join NATO.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Totally non of our business whatsoever. Ukraine is as corrupt as the rest of the FSU and will remain so as they are always going to be bordering Russia. There is no way Russia was ever going to accept NATO going into Ukraine. They stated so.

If you want to defend your Ukraine dream then so be it. Ukraine is looking for western volunteers right now. Go and vote with your feet if you really "think we need to respect the rights of independent democratic countries to make their own decisions and not be invaded by brutal dictators like Putin." Go for it..................... Just keep us Brits who want to be left alone completely out of it including our hard earned taxes which are funding this proxy war, while at the same time our own health services, roads, education, infrastructure is literally falling apart. Total nonsense getting involved in an inter Slav mafia war

originally posted by: twistedpuppy

With all due respect, I think this is you taking things to absurdity. What you've written in your several recent posts is political science-fiction. The forced peace between Ukraine and Russia will not save any lives. Russia will wait a few years and will attack Ukraine again. Ukraine ceding one third or even half of its territory will not appease Russia just like annexation of Crimea, which Trump supported or at least didn't object to (cuz "he wanted to save lives") didn't appease it.

I think you missed a couple of points here.

1. Donbas is about 15% or less of Ukraine, not 50%, with about 10% or less of the population of Ukraine.
2. I didn't say give up Donbas without getting something in return, and that would be to join NATO which would put in that future protection you are suggesting that Russia will just come back for more.

And Russia will never let what will remain of Ukraine to join NATO. This is out of the question and everyone with some basic knowledge of Russian international politics knows that. Russia hardly stomached the Eastern Europe countries joining NATO and it was under Yeltsin's reign back then, who was far more lenient than Putin. I remember the vehement protests and the country was weak still suffering the consequences of the USSR dissolution, not a strong imperial autocratic regime like it is today.

OK, then we have three choices...
1. To continue to give a little here and there until Russia finally works its way to Kyvi and takes it all even if it costs Putin two million Russian deaths and millions of Ukraine deaths and full destruction of Ukraine foot by foot.

2. Go full in and support them as what is actually needed to win. This would consist of much more military aid and full support from our Airforce, Spaceforce, and Navy

or

3. Is to give up Donbas and maybe end it now...

Those are your options so what should we do?

Now something about "no pay, no protection". The countries on NATO eastern flank pay more because they border with Russia and therefore are in more danger than Germany and the rest of Europe. It's quite obvious that by protecting the Eastern flank NATO protects the whole of Europe. So how does Trump want to throw Germany to Russian polar bears without sacrificing the countries of Eastern Europe? If Russia ever decides to move deep into Europe, will it miraculously omit Eastern countries because Trump wills it? Will Trump phone Putin and say:

We both know this was all said during a rally... He has always been strong on NATO's 2%. You all read too much into it, creating something that isn't there. You didn't like his statement, OK good. That is really the level many of you should just stick to.

See any logic here? Tell you what. Trump is an idiot with the brain of a baby monkey.

And the truth comes out... TDS leads the way...

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Totally non of our business whatsoever. Ukraine is as corrupt as the rest of the FSU and will remain so as they are always going to be bordering Russia. There is no way Russia was ever going to accept NATO going into Ukraine. They stated so.

If you want to defend your Ukraine dream then so be it. Ukraine is looking for western volunteers right now. Go and vote with your feet if you really "think we need to respect the rights of independent democratic countries to make their own decisions and not be invaded by brutal dictators like Putin." Go for it..................... Just keep us Brits who want to be left alone completely out of it including our hard earned taxes which are funding this proxy war, while at the same time our own health services, roads, education, infrastructure is literally falling apart. Total nonsense getting involved in an inter Slav mafia war

Number 4.