A different look at freewill

a reply to: Astyanax

Well, my point is that communication (through speech, song and writing) and prescriptive morality are evolved features of Homo Sapiens. But though the former is unique to us, morality most certainly is not. All social animals display it, though their ideas of good and bad behaviour may be very different from ours. Dolphins are exquisitely sociable and demonstrably moral animals for whom rape is perfectly normal and natural. Consensual sex apparently does not exist in their world.

Touchy subjects in their own right...

Humans can find rape justifiable under certain circumstances too, apparently the part of the brain that governs communication also controls aggression and sexual activity. You're right of course and it seems my issue was knowing a little more exists to it all that I couldn't quite elaborate on.

Externalising information (writing) truly does seem to be unique to humans but until we can talk anything else I'd claim it as a theory, just because the whale doesn't have an alphabet it doesn't mean they cannot externalise information. The rest isn't though, other animals definitely sing and talk.

I don't really know how animals navigate, do you? How are they finding a pin point of salt deposits in a vastness of land for instance? We used to call that "genetic memory" but the obvious answer is externalised information that wouldn't change like Chinese whispers or a song down the ages... Just a thought.

The absence of free will is not automatism

It's the inability to consider. I think.

It's a slight difference but a fundamental one. I'd never accuse an ant of being an automaton, I've seen them war
they can most definitely think but that doesn't mean they can "think about thinking" to put it simply, free will is a part of the ultimate questions of life and my ability to answer it is probably no better than an ants in reality. It's a yes or no question unless it's a maybe.

That is, however, what I’m saying, and I wonder why, apart from its unfamiliarity, the idea seems off to you. All higher social species experience conflicts of conscience. Have you heard of Hamilton’s Rule? It’s the tension between selfish and social instincts given mathematical form, and although the idea has its flaws, it is still enormously useful as a conceptual tool.

I genuinely appreciate it

I don't think what you were saying was unfamiliar now that I look back on it all. We might have been making the same point in a way. Reality is subjective to the individual, humans have certain potentials and leanings (instincts) but we also have a mind and language. It's that time between A and B I was looking at and I honestly cannot say free will exists in it. Neither for me or the dog so to speak. I have my doubts anyone can.

There's set patterns regardless of what we do.

a reply to: BatCaveJoe

Oh man, that's a beautiful description.
I almost feel bad for teasing, ... almost ... hehe.

Perhaps Joseph-of-The-Halls-of-Contemplation ?

Find any truth yet ?

Everybody knows a coin has two sides.

Except for the edge, that kinda could be a side.
What if the edge is serrated ?
What about inside ?
Is inside, not a side ?

What I mean by that nonsense, is that I like to look at, ponder, contemplate things like you.
I also like to look for additional sides, alternative views, inside-out and backwards views.

One example is intelligence.
There is a new thread here today about some bright your lady, passing a ridiculous amount of A-grade exams.
That's only one or two kinds of intelligence

I have a bud who couldn't get-out of grade 9, yet his street-smarts are a wonder to observe.
Pro-athletes have their own flavor of genius, as do artists.
Creators of all stripes and flavours.
Channeling creation ?

If we only think of one kind of intelligence, we could miss all of the others.
And perhaps by contemplating other ideas, we open-up to them, somehow,
or somehow clear the path for the subtle messages ?

Peace and blessings

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin
Oh man, that's a beautiful description.
I almost feel bad for teasing, ... almost ... hehe.

Perhaps Joseph-of-The-Halls-of-Contemplation ?

Thanks, and yeah that’s sounds more up my alley…Nice!

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin
Find any truth yet ?

Yeah, quite a bit!

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin
Everybody knows a coin has two sides.
Except for the edge, that kinda could be a side.
What if the edge is serrated ?
What about inside ?
Is inside, not a side ?
What I mean by that nonsense, is that I like to look at, ponder, contemplate things like you.
I also like to look for additional sides, alternative views, inside-out and backwards views.

People naturally look for answers but a key to seeking truth I find is by asking oneself the right questions…seeking out the right questions is very important…but no one can give them to you…You have to be searching with an intense passion (in any subject matter) to find those!... While also remaining completely honest with yourself; easy to say but difficult to do…

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin
One example is intelligence.
There is a new thread here today about some bright your lady, passing a ridiculous amount of A-grade exams.
That's only one or two kinds of intelligence

Intelligence is tricky to define…And there are probably many shades of intelligence with varying degrees etc…but there are also some key ingredients that are needed like memory…without which nothing could be formulated or even recalled…

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin
I have a bud who couldn't get-out of grade 9, yet his street-smarts are a wonder to observe.
Pro-athletes have their own flavor of genius, as do artists.
Creators of all stripes and flavours.
Channeling creation?

Street-smarts are sooo underrated…

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin
If we only think of one kind of intelligence, we could miss all of the others.
And perhaps by contemplating other ideas, we open-up to them, somehow,
or somehow clear the path for the subtle messages?

Exactly…if we only think of the color blue then that’s all well ever see…gota stay open to the possibilities…

Peace to you too…

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

I agree about the subtlety, but perhaps, there are some, that can ride a vibe differently, and feel more intense in those sort of inner-messaging, meditating times ?

It is important to understand why that intensity exists. If we speculate that the inner is stillness, the outer is movement. We can only conclude from that speculation that "intensity" must derive from movement. It is perhaps the ego mind that is projecting that intensity as a defense against its death to stillness. The ego-mind wanting people to believe that the stillness is so intense that it is too much to bear. Yet if they could bathe in the absolute stillness for hours. They would find nothing intense about it at all.

Even if one has an understanding of the processes involved. If we have not burnt all our material desires at their roots. Any understanding of enlightenment is worthless. That understanding will be lost when our body and mind dies. All for naught. So two aspects are needed. Wisdom and Will. The primary being "Will". If we have the will to defeat all our material desires. Seeing them completely empty of eternal happiness. We can free our inner from entrapment. Let it take the reigns of our being.

Sorry for raving on.

Love.

a reply to: BatCaveJoe

Howdy Joseph-of-The-Halls-of-Contemplation !

Glad that you have found some truths.
Some we may wish to keep, in our tended secret-garden.

Originally posted by Joseph-of-The-Halls-of-Contemplation
People naturally look for answers but a key to seeking truth I find is by asking oneself the right questions…seeking out the right questions is very important…but no one can give them to you…You have to be searching with an intense passion (in any subject matter) to find those!... While also remaining completely honest with yourself; easy to say but difficult to do

That reminded me of JK totally.

J. Krishnamurti Online

Most of us have very little energy. We spend a great deal of our energy in conflict, in struggle; waste it in various manners, not only sexually but also a great deal is wasted in contradiction, in the fragmentation of ourselves, which brings about conflict. This conflict is definitely a great waste of energy – the voltage decreases. Energy is necessary, not only physical energy but psychological energy – a mind that is intensely clear, logical, healthy, undistorted, and a heart that has no sentiment whatsoever, no emotion, but that quality of abundance of love and compassion. All this gives a great intensity and passion. You need that, otherwise you cannot take a journey into this thing called meditation. You may sit cross-legged, breathe – oh, all the fantastic ways – but you will never come to it.

From Public Talk 4, Santa Monica, 8 March 1970

I don't think that I'm anywhere in the same neighborhood as JK, but perhaps in the same province ?
( Maybe a big province, LoL !! )

May I ask how you developed your pondering, meditative, contemplative thinking/questioning style/methods ?

Member Good-Glend has been an avid meditator for a while, and I'm wondering how close we are to what is taught to students in meditation centres.

If you missed it : there is a very interesting thread ongoing, where Member Compendium is sharing esoteric knowledge taught to initiates : ATS : It's 15 years since Hidden Hand's dialogue with ATS members.

Love and blessings, and a beverage of your choice.

a reply to: glend

Greetings Good-Glend !

Thanks for explaining the intensity.

My ego wants to find an example of where that intensity is not ego, hihihi !

I still have roots in the material world, but what you are saying here,
is very much also akin to some of JK's quotes.

Those roots keep me here, and will for a while.
Otherwise : I could totally see going-off to live my " Ikigai ",
or some " Into-the-Wild ", mad-trapper, type scenario, in a remote log-cabin.

...Even if one has an understanding of the processes involved. If we have not burnt all our material desires at their roots. Any understanding of enlightenment is worthless. That understanding will be lost when our body and mind dies. All for naught. So two aspects are needed. Wisdom and Will. The primary being "Will". If we have the will to defeat all our material desires. Seeing them completely empty of eternal happiness. We can free our inner from entrapment. Let it take the reigns of our being.

Is it still called raving, when it oozes with wisdom ?
You're oozing, or perhaps : there is merely the oozing of wisdom, as our old friend ItIsNowAgain might have offered.

Now I need to question how strong that will is.
It does not dominate, because ego is still here, and in varying strength, in varying moments.

Your words also remind me of supposedly imaginary philosopher Jed McKenna, when he said something to the tune of : " If you're going looking for the truth, you leave all baggage behind. All of it. " ( Paraphrased. )

The nobody that approaches the gateless-gate, is naked inside and out.
But I'm dressed for winter, and partially dressed to meet society.

Love and blessings.

Jed Mckenna - Everything You Need To Know




This, not that.

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

ItsNowAgain certainly new the terrain. I enjoyed reading his posts.

Yes I too often ask how strong that will is. With my ego mind continually clawing its way back with temptations for this material world. The battle is ongoing. But I ask myself again and again do I want to exist in the ego-minds mediocrities. Or do I want give rise to a higher self that will enlighten the inner for all people (not for myself .. aka ego). So the will to fight for the well being of others is instrumental I feel. Its altruistic love versus selfishness.

The ego-mind will win at times. I will be lost in its thoughts. Then whilst in those thoughts I will notice the ringing of the Anahata Naad (unstruck sound). Which pulls me back into the now of pure awareness. In which no ego-mind thoughts exists. So like a puppet I get pulled backward and forward. But if we have the will never to give up the battle. At least there is a chance of success.

Love to all.

a reply to: glend

Greetings Good-Glend.

Reading your post, brought me right back to the OP.

This battle being waged, in every moment, in the now.
We look at ourselves, and see what old monkey ego is up-to.
We can take our time, and make the right choice.

Let Love be with U.

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

Originally posted by BatCaveJoe [/]
People naturally look for answers but a key to seeking truth I find is by asking oneself the right questions…seeking out the right questions is very important…but no one can give them to you…You have to be searching with an intense passion (in any subject matter) to find those!... While also remaining completely honest with yourself; easy to say but difficult to do

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin [/]
That reminded me of JK totally.

J. Krishnamurti Online

Most of us have very little energy. We spend a great deal of our energy in conflict, in struggle; waste it in various manners, not only sexually but also a great deal is wasted in contradiction, in the fragmentation of ourselves, which brings about conflict. This conflict is definitely a great waste of energy – the voltage decreases. Energy is necessary, not only physical energy but psychological energy – a mind that is intensely clear, logical, healthy, undistorted, and a heart that has no sentiment whatsoever, no emotion, but that quality of abundance of love and compassion. All this gives a great intensity and passion. You need that, otherwise you cannot take a journey into this thing called meditation. You may sit cross-legged, breathe – oh, all the fantastic ways – but you will never come to it.

From Public Talk 4, Santa Monica, 8 March 1970

Hey, thanks for sharing…very inspiring words by JK…

I can definitely attest to the fact that having a clear, logically thinking mind that is driven by Love and compassion, are the real keys to finding spiritual Truth imo…

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin [/]
May I ask how you developed your pondering, meditative, contemplative thinking/questioning style/methods?

It’s a long story lol but to cut it short…I had a spiritual awakening studying the Bible…I then branched out into Gnosticism and more recently into Rosicrucianism…But I also find that Wisdom and Truth can sometimes turn up in the most unexpected places…such as from the many great literary writers.

I guess my method would be using logic and reason, guided by the heart. Additionally studying a text without formulating any fixed ideas about it is quite important too; The ability to just think and contemplate the words without bringing in any judgments or bias is an important part of it too.

Additionally having a thirst for truth that comes from deep down inside your soul, will lead you to asking yourself the right questions…If you put your whole heart, soul and mind into seeking, then things will naturally begin to reveal themselves to you…

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin [/]
Member Good-Glend has been an avid meditator for a while, and I'm wondering how close we are to what is taught to students in meditation centres.

I used to be a long time poster here…but since the “Big Hack”, I decided to start a-fresh with a new account name!...Glend is awesome, I’ve interacted with him/her a quite a few times before…

It’s funny because during my spiritual journey I spent a lot of time just contemplating the text…I often saw this as a kind of form of meditation, although not meditation as is seen from any Buddhist traditions etc…

Originally posted by KnowItAllKnowNothin [/]
If you missed it : there is a very interesting thread ongoing, where Member Compendium is sharing esoteric knowledge taught to initiates : ATS : It's 15 years since Hidden Hand's dialogue with ATS members.

Love and blessings, and a beverage of your choice.

Pretty much a trip down memory lane for me, as my first ever post was actually on that thread under my original handle name!