A different look at freewill

a reply to: davidstrickland

BEAUTIFUL! I thank Father God for you and what you have shared..

a reply to: theatreboy

So well said. Wisdom is a precious gift and God won't hold back.

Re: the topic of freewill simply means we are free to choose to follow God or not. God doesn't want robots without feelings or heart or the ability to choose (this isn't direct at you Theatreboy). Just a simple explanation. All the choices we make has a ripple effect.

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

I am going to be quite clumsy in my discourse because, as you have explained, the subject of the OP is, truly, beyond words....and descriptions framed in words.


Some things just feel "right". Athletes of various stripes often speak of "being in the Zone" when talent, skill, practice, "head/heart-space" are all in seeming perfect "sync", and the resulting performance is both perfect and essentially effortless.

I am not sure if this is the thing you are speaking of, or in some way related to the deep connection to the "All" that could be expressed as "Love" per the OP....


But the connection feels "right"!.

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

Beyond the Golden-Rule, the teachings of great sages like Jesus, and the societal rules that man makes : there is something deep within us, that somehow tells us what is right, and what is wrong.

Quite right -- there is indeed.

It is called instinct. As social animals we have inborn instincts to cooperate with one another, form societies and communities, help and nurture the weakest of our kin.

These social instincts are often in conflict with our selfish instincts as individuals, which urge us to put ourselves first and let others look after themselves.

Our feelings of guilt, shame, self-respect, protectiveness, generosity and so on are functions we have evolved to help us cope with the conflict between our selfish and our social instincts.

This is the true genealogy of morals.

ETA: If anyone wishes to dispute the above because they don't believe in evolution, they are of course free to express their opinions, but I will not respond. Let this very interesting thread stay on topic!

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: FlyersFan

So you have to bring them up, otherwise you can't speak of freewill.

I guess that's why "free will" is never mentioned as something we have been gifted in the Bible. I hear God hates it! But, he had to deal with it anyway.

I read your post, giggled about it and thought to myself "well, this is an agnostic who worships cats, so to each their own" and went off to do other stuff.

Then the more I thought about it, the more I realized that you really don't understand the concept of Christianity at all.

Beginning in the Garden of Eden in which God creates Adam and Eve with the ability to obey or disobey him, and continuing on throughout the Bible through the New Testament where life and death are portrayed as depending on peoples’ acceptance or rejection of the Savior, the Bible portrays people as generating their own activity and creating their own destinies by the decisions they make. God’s will is unequivocally for all to choose to obey him: to choose life and not death. But, sadly, many freely reject God to their own destruction. Creating creatures with wills of their own is risky, even for God.

There is no Christian anywhere on this earth that thinks that God is the God of the old Testament.

Simply because of the Son of God thing.... and the New Testament.

You know... what modern Christianity is built upon.

Unless you think that Christians nowadays just take Jesus Christ out of the equation?

To the OP...

I am considered a heathen by most modern religions, but firmly believe that most religions have but a part of the equation.

I give you the example of the elephant and the blind men...

There were once six blind men who stood by the road-side every day, and begged from the people who passed. They had often heard of elephants, but they had never seen one; for, being blind, how could they?

It so happened one morning that an elephant was driven down the road where they stood. When they were told that the great beast was before them, they asked the driver to let him stop so that they might see him.

Of course they could not see him with their eyes; but they thought that by touching him they could learn just what kind of animal he was.

The first one happened to put his hand on the elephant's side. "Well, well!" he said, "now I know all about this beast. He is exactly like a wall."

The second felt only of the elephant's tusk. "My brother," he said, "you are mistaken. He is not at all like a wall. He is round and smooth and sharp. He is more like a spear than anything else."

The third happened to take hold of the elephant's trunk. "Both of you are wrong," he said. "Anybody who knows anything can see that this elephant is like a snake."

The fourth reached out his arms, and grasped one of the elephant's legs. "Oh, how blind you are!" he said. "It is very plain to me that he is round and tall like a tree."

The fifth was a very tall man, and he chanced to take hold of the elephant's ear. "The blindest man ought to know that this beast is not like any of the things that you name," he said. "He is exactly like a huge fan."

The sixth was very blind indeed, and it was some time before he could find the elephant at all. At last he seized the animal's tail. "O foolish fellows!" he cried. "You surely have lost your senses. This elephant is not like a wall, or a spear, or a snake, or a tree; neither is he like a fan. But any man with a particle of sense can see that he is exactly like a rope."

Then the elephant moved on, and the six blind men sat by the roadside all day, and quarreled about him. Each believed that he knew just how the animal looked; and each called the others hard names because they did not agree with him. People who have eyes sometimes act as foolishly.

This in my experience is the case for most religions.

As for free will and Gods, think about this...

If enough people think something exists, it exists.

A quick example for me is the stock market.

If nobody believed in it, would it exist?

Of course not.

If you take that thinking to its logical conclusion and if free will is indeed something that we as humans have, then technically we make our own Gods.

A good topic and a lot deeper than some can handle.

a reply to: theatreboy

Is the fundamental difference between the left and right the fact that those on the right believe we have free will and can work hard and live the life we choose...and those on the left don't believe in free will? Hence why they are always so negative?

No.

Calvinists (who are highly conservative) don't believe in free will. Certain other Protestant sects too.

My favourite take on free will is from Steinbeck's East of Eden. 'Timshel', translated as 'thou mayest'.

My take is, Thou may do 'right' or thou may do 'wrong' - it's always a choice and sometimes, the only winning play is to do nothing, also a choice.

There is also the theory, 'the mind is flat'. That people do not really know or understand the choices they make. For example, if you ask a 100 people to name an animal, a high % will say elephant, or ask them to name a number and 7 commonly features. Derren Brown uses this knowledge to great effect. We see evidence of this at elections - despite plenty of information that politics and modern democracy are broken, people still vote and still believe they are making a choice, making a difference and contributing to public life.

Consciousness is real enough and without it, there can be no real awareness or conceptualisation of anything beyond the physical world.

And CS Lewis take on love involves head and heart - 'learn to love with your head and think with your heart' - makes sense to me but not so easy in practice.

No point worrying about any of it - just live by what you think is right and stand up for what you believe in probably goes a long way in shaping conscience and promoting personal growth (even though you may meet violent opposition).

a reply to: Astyanax

I'd dispute...

There's no free will if genetic memory is the basis of morality or governs our emotions, it's the same as questioning if a dog has free will.

Dogs are social creatures, they learn and they can express... I'm fairly sure they think too. Therefore they have free will? But a dog's nature can be changed, it can train to do things in a very similar manner as a human, much of that "programming" can be totally counter intuitive to the canine condition just as it can be for the human.

I guess what I'm trying to say is consciousness would make a mockery of any set pattern or base system we can apply to humans (or dogs) when it comes to instincts and morality. Sure, there's the emotional system that essentially works the same minus trauma, memory and neurological issues but then there's language and thought to throw a spanner in the works.

a reply to: Lumenari

My suspicions have always centered around free will only existing in thought. To think differently can be troubling though and I'm not one to have original thoughts so my conclusion is it might be a myth.

Which means we made it up. Which means I'm probably chasing my tail again going around in circles. Religions are cultures based around those tail chasing questions whether they know it or not... Feels like I'm being an ass writing that which isn't my intention. I'm actually fascinated by the tail chasers new and old. It looks fun and although I know I'm often doing it wrong I know others aren't not doing it right.

a reply to: RAY1990

There's no free will if genetic memory is the basis of morality or governs our emotions, it's the same as questioning if a dog has free will.

Genetic memory is an old idea from analytical psychology. I wasn't referring to anything like that, just to evolved instinct. You can relate one to the other but they are not the same thing.

That having free will is a precondition for having morals sounds obvious, but if you look a little more closely at the proposition it tends to disintegrate. We can talk more about that, if you like.

But if a person has free will, then so has a dog, I should think. Humans, too, can be turned into automatons. This again brings us to the question of free will.

a reply to: Degradation33
Thanks for your reply DeeG33.

Strip-away all of the stuff we think we know.
Get a spatula in there, to loosen-up the ideas of man.
Peel another layer off-of what we are told we are, and then even our belief that they may be right.
Chisel-away all of the studies, dogma, and doctrine.

I understand that what is being described is rare-air.
It's like having an " experience ", where all of the pre-programming is visible, exposed.
In the bright light, we see the automated, idiosyncratic, and instinctual messaging that pops.

As far as the idea that we are talking about the same " place " from whence Ouija answers pop, I think you do have some understanding, because it seems to me, that it is near the same level.

Had a thought the other day, that what I am trying to describe, is also related to the place where some " Channelers " get their messages. I don't really watch them, nor give them any special belief, but I'm talking about the vids that are always showing-up in my You tube feed, with titles like : " They can't stop what's coming now " , with some image of a person with a surprised look on their face, and a message about much of humanity is moving towards a new age of peace, or something similar.

I get the feeling that we are looking at a similar source, but we don't need to make it woo-woo, when we have experienced it ourselves.

a reply to: Astyanax

Genetic memory was a bad choice of words on my part, it's more like a predisposition to certain behaviours and traits/instincts which isn't a memory, the best example I can think of is puberty. The genetics is just the blueprint for all the different changes which clearly do have set patterns but for the individual going through it a lot is instinctual. That said we're not monkeys and things like communication and morality changes things.

My point with that is there's seemingly more to it, we're more than a sum of our parts

That having free will is a precondition for having morals sounds obvious, but if you look a little more closely at the proposition it tends to disintegrate. We can talk more about that, if you like.

Well it was a tree of knowledge...

I still don't detect any new flavours though, I do understand the problem is I have a human mouth and a human brain so I'm compelled to think and taste like a human, again it might seem like I'm stating the obvious but if you consider other life forms with all the variations coupled with the fact we're all running on similar chemistry then one might have a "duh" moment and conclude evolution. The thing is though most modern morality is invented, laws are often built around morality yet I can imagine a person who lives under common law could find himself in trouble within a different nation that also follows a common law system, there's not exactly a set pattern for social instincts.

Idk... Just seems off to say we've got our base instincts and our social instincts and they're at odds with each other. The latter would be a construct and non existent without some form of educating right?

But if a person has free will, then so has a dog, I should think. Humans, too, can be turned into automatons. This again brings us to the question of free will.

Sometimes there's new things under the sun?

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

" They can't stop what's coming now "

It's always painted as something coming that's so beautiful and pure it'll burn away the bad and corrupt.

I consider it naive, and it often reeks of the divisionist attitude applied to others whilst claiming it doesn't exist within themselves.

There's definitely no free will in oneness.

Maybe if those videos were titled "You can stop it if you want too! But you really won't!" I'd be a bit more into it. Because my answer to "you can't stop this" is non serviam.

a reply to: glend

Yes Good-Glend !
I know you have visited these places, in your deep meditations.

That place where we can see the machinations of our mind, ego, and programming.
We can sit in that place, and let Love shine a bright light on whatever residue may be bringing clouds and confusion.

When we can clearly see the contaminants : we can see the light more clearly.
In that understanding, we realize that we do have the choice to choose : Love, or not-Love.

And you're right that it is a beautiful and true Love, beyond the Love of the mind/ego.

What you describe as the Love of the Father, seems to be exactly the idea.
I'm looking at it from an experiential point of view, without outside elements.
So that Father's Love, flows through us, and it can be experienced first-hand, with no need for any outside manifestation.
From this energy : we can feel creative energy exploding through, or from us.

Let Love be with you.

a reply to: BrotherKinsMan

Thanks mate.
It's great to get such positive pings.

Peace.

a reply to: Venkuish1

I'm glad you have been able to feel this deep inside.

Let's go beyond the stories of man, to our deepest experiences.

Let Love be with U.

a reply to: bluemooone44

Experts say plenty of stuff, and some of it is nonsense.
Without knowing : I imagine the vast majority have no clue what is being discussed in this thread.
They may be wonderful good folks, but these experiences are not available to those whom worship mind, and the workings of mind.

All one has to do, is find one crack, then it starts to crumble apart.

Love is here, now.

originally posted by: theatreboy
...
When I was younger, I prayed for wisdom. I made my choices, and lived with the consequences.

And I learned...I was given that wisdom I asked for. Wisdom comes from pain.

But this change that is happening in me, is truly making me a better person to those around me, and hence the world in general...if only a tiny way.

This understanding and learning brings growth, and a peace I have never known.
...
I will continue my search, listening deep to my soul, and try to do what is right. To grow everyday.

And besides, this world is truly beautiful, but you can't see the beauty when you are mad at it.

Noticing the difference, makes all of the difference.
The layers of thoughtless, programmed acting are ending, and you can see there is a different way.

Beautiful !