A different look at freewill

There have been many exchanges on the subject of freewill, within these hallowed halls.

Wanted to see if there were any interesting pings, from this viewpoint.
A large part of this idea was posted in another thread, that got buried because folks wanted to discuss other stuff.

As an added bonus : this thread gets it's own soundtrack !


( Kula Shakur - Let Love be with u. )

Beyond the Golden-Rule, the teachings of great sages like Jesus, and the societal rules that man makes : there is something deep within us, that somehow tells us what is right, and what is wrong.

Not the rules of conduct, laws, or philosophy, that a person adopts, but way below, before, or beyond the ego and intellect.

Deep down to the sources of intuition, instinct, and things that reverberate within us, even before the intellect can frame it, before the ego can label it : deeper.

Decades ago, a French-speaking friend asked me if, when I was speaking in French, if my thoughts were in English, then somehow passed through a translation filter, before being expressed in French.

I didn't have an answer at the time.
Many years later : it appeared to me.
My thinking process was a-priori to language, and therefore, somehow not in language.
( By this time, I had forgotten who had asked me the question ... LoL !! )

This realization, opened the door to my understanding that there is a deep centre, where perhaps the constructs of society and Man, have less influence.

We are not talking about the kind of thinking, where random thoughts just pop into our consciousness : but the kind of thinking where we purposely ponder, contemplate, pray, and meditate.

Below that level of contemplation, deeper, are instincts, intuition, and whatever. Things we feel, that do not originate from our social-programming, education, and other brainwashings.

Not many have hiked these trails.
Some of these deep dives, have led to an experience of a total void : nothing.
Other times : it's a burst of what can only be described as pure, limitless, infinite Love.

These experiences are beyond words, and give what some call noetic knowledge, or experiences.
I'm not really familiar with talking about noetics, so it might not be the right context.
The right context is that these are experiences beyond words.

no•et•ic: From the Greek noēsis/ noētikos, meaning inner wisdom, direct knowing, or subjective understanding. As defined by the philosopher William James in 1902, noetic refers to "states of insight into depths of truth unplumbed by the discursive intellect. They are illuminations, revelations, full of significance and importance, all inarticulate though they remain; and as a rule they carry with them a curious sense of authority..."

I find it difficult to navigate society, with nothing but Love, but that's what my deep intuition tells me to do.

So here we are, each a conscious agent, of some kind of larger whole.
From deep within, we are compelled to be Loving, to all. To choose Love, in every instant.

So for me : that is the source, or basis of the morals of man.
It is the deep-seat, where we truly are free to decide how to act, or react.

We live in a world of lies and deception.
We have a collective amnesia, about our history, origins, and abilities.

We face self-appointed supposed authorities, who lie and deceive, as their standard operational procedures.
We are told that we are tiny, insignificant ants, in a universe too vast for us to get our minds around.

Professor Donald Hoffman says it is the other way around :
We are infinite limitless creators, and the physical universe is only the filter, or headset through which we experience consensual reality.

Perhaps we are infant Gods, sent here into these meatsuits, to learn ?
Some say that we choose these human experiences.

Whatever : here we are !
And in every moment : we are presented with choices.

Right and wrong, peace or war, Love or not-Love.

Am coming-around to thinking that this is very acuratish, on those deeper levels of consciousness, and experience.

Cal Washington says that is what this whole experience, on this plane is about : the classic battle between God and satan, right and wrong.

Perhaps this is why we are having this experience : so that we may learn to choose Love, eternally ?

This is God and the devil, playing poker on the train, that never ends. ( The devil keeps cheating ... LoL !! )
This is a fiddle, or guitar contest, between good and evil.
This, right here.
This experience.

This is the classic first-nations myth, about the grandfather constantly having two wolves fighting within.
He has the freewill, to choose which one he feeds.
Love, or not-Love.

We somehow seem to know, instinctively, what is right and wrong.
When we are calm : it's easier to hear that inner-voice.
When we are in chaos : it's more difficult, and we may be forced to act quickly, in a way that we otherwise may not.

Not the God of religions, but that feeling, in common with what they are all trying to describe.
We all have that deep within us, and it has been a wonderful feeling for me to use this very powerful concept of this feeling, presence, of some kind of creator, creativeness, that I now feel comfortable calling God.

We are not talking about the physical, empirical, limited, universe : but the infinite immensity of our creativity.

Have you never felt it, in moments of silence, and quiet contemplation ?

The Love/not-Love choice is an interior feeling, instinct, or intuition.

First : we choose to Love ourselves : means we curtail the inner critic, and negative self-talk.
This is not ego : it's the opposite of ego.

Once we learn to be kind and Loving to ourselves : it's time to experiment in the " outside " world.
Starting with beloved family members.

I'm not talking about sappy Love : but just really listening to someone, and responding to them in a very gentle, kind, accepting, and Loving way.

Now I sound like I'm preaching : but am not perfect at showing this in the outside world.

Please don't get stuck on the words God and devil.

It's deeper than words.

Words are just pointers, tools.

It's when you close your eyes, and ponder how to treat yourself, and others.

It comes from deep inside, but it is not always manifest on the " outside. "

All beliefs are welcome here.
( Please don't turn this into another : " atheists vs Christians " thread, thanks. It's deeper that constructs and concepts. )

Before you reply : please take one minute, to ponder what the exact opposite of your reply would be.


TLDR : If we nurture our very own Loving essence : we cannot do otherwise than act in a way, that society calls moral.
This is where we have freewill.

originally posted by: KnowItAllKnowNothin

Please don't get stuck on the words God and devil.

Well .. when talking about freewill, you kind of have to. We are stuck living in a very structured reality, one not of our making or choosing. We have many different forces pushing and pulling us, trying to influence us. We have 'freewill' in how we deal with those realities and influences that we had/have no say in. That's about it. It seems rather limited. And yeah, there is a God and there is a devil, and lots of good spirits and bad spirits ... all pushing and pulling and trying to influence us. So you have to bring them up, otherwise you can't speak of freewill.

a reply to: FlyersFan

So you have to bring them up, otherwise you can't speak of freewill.

I guess that's why "free will" is never mentioned as something we have been gifted in the Bible. I hear God hates it! But, he had to deal with it anyway.

To knowitallknownothing:

Greetings my friend. Your story parallels my own - started several years ago (actually at the beginning of my life about 61 years ago, but only in retrospect do I see it). I think you are having a deep spiritual awakening - it has happened (and is still happening) to me much along the same lines as you.

It has also been called "the shift" - our thinking changes as we perceive the same things much differently. You can google it and get some good information; my faith tradition is Christian, but it is happening across the world to people of all and no faith backgrounds.

The first thing to come to me was gratitude/gratefulness for the great life I've had (not rich, just average - but filled with loving family and friends (not perfect by any means), the opportunity for a good education and the daily things we take for granted (warm bed, roof over head, job to provide for my family), then progressed to my personal ethos =- "the law of love". Whatever I am doing or plan to do (or say or go) - I run it through the filter of love (does this show love to other, my self and my understanding of God).

You also get a major wake up call - that we are all ONE, truly brothers and sisters. All flesh is really spirit cloaked in a body (my tradition calls human bodies "jars of clay" - useful for a purpose, but eventually to be broken and/or discarded. For me, this did not come through reading any scripture or other purposeful "religious" activities. I was visiting Greece, the land of my wife's birth. We were cruising the backroads of the beautiful, uncrowded (in September) Navarino coast. I was maybe "praying in the spirit" and thanking God for the beauty and opportunities that the trip provided. The presence of the Creator came to me and let me know "that we are One" - it hit me like a ton of bricks. I had to pull over and cry/tremble while my wife thought I was having a heart attack. Later that day on a Greek beach, smoking a Cuban cigar, drinking Italian coffee and speaking french with the Senegalese beach vendor - I was overwhelmed with joy, gratitude and once again - "We are One". I could do nothing but worship my God.

For me the next lesson came in a difficulty with my youngest son (26 years old) - he challenged me deeply, causing painful introspection. After much emotional pain and wrestling, I called out to God as I understood him/her at the time, and the Teacher arrived. From my tradition, I understand this to be the spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, my advocate, my guide.

The flesh in us must die for the spirit to thrive. Hold onto your ass - it's going to be one hell of a ride.

Just an fyi - I still attend and serve in an evangelical church, but I no longer consider myself and evangelical as of the last 6 months - more of a fellow seeker of the way and partaker of God's grace. The God I am discovering cannot be held in evangelical (or any other) religious dogma/doctrine. As religious people, we have clouded the one true God with more often than not, religious lies. My daily prayer is that I perceive EVERYTHING through the Creator's eyes and not my own understanding. I am undergoing "reconstruction" with everything I thought I knew - love your log in handle.

Grace and Peace on your journey.

P.S. - Wish we could meet for a cup of coffee. It appears we have a lot in common.

a reply to: KnowItAllKnowNothin

I don't think it really exists.

I think you have something you believe to be a free choice, but they are still based on your ideomotor preference. Like what you believe to be your volition is from the same well Ouija board answers come from.

This study:

qz.com...

Free will, from a neuroscience perspective, can look like quite quaint. In a study published this week in the journal Scientific Reports, researchers in Australia were able to predict basic choices participants made 11 seconds before they consciously declared their decisions.

To me, God comes into play like any other preference or imprinting thereof. Things like love may not be the preference of a child of constant abuse or no instructed or observed moral foundation.

I feel the world we live in works like a simulation analog. We make true/false logic gate decisions, influenced by our experience, and are VERY limited in the choices we can make.

And because several of these come down to a binary decisions, the application of right and wrong is almost always applicable.

It only appears like determinism.

From Ineffable.

One philosophical position has been neglected in these reflections. Since quantum mechanics still stands as one of the most successful physical theories of all time, all evidence points into the direction of a indeterministic universe. But this does not necessarily imply that therefore the actions of human beings are the result of a free acting agent. In short: the universe could very well be undetermined, but still human beings have no free will. This position is called “hard indeterminism”

So basically you make ideomotor decisions in a world that is statistical and indeterminate. Even though the world presents you with uncertainty, you still have no ultimate control of the circumstances you are presented with, and forced to defer to preference.

But it is obligatory to say you are free to choose the celestial voice if that is your preference.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: FlyersFan

So you have to bring them up, otherwise you can't speak of freewill.

I guess that's why "free will" is never mentioned as something we have been gifted in the Bible. I hear God hates it! But, he had to deal with it anyway.

I don't think God hates freewill, it how we chose to use it.

a reply to: FlyersFan

This is an invitation to look beyond the standard definitions of those words.
Beyond books, dogma, and doctrine.
Beyond what we have been told.
Beyond all of the stories of man.

What all humans, of all cultures and faiths, may experience.
The ages-old internal battle of the two wolves.

We can call it God vs the devil, as that is a product of our culture.
What I am really interested-in, is what is felt, meant, when using those words.

Because words are merely pointers, to concepts, ideas, feelings, beliefs, etc.

I want to look beyond the words, and beyond the concepts, ideas, feelings, beliefs, etc.

originally posted by: theatreboy

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: FlyersFan

So you have to bring them up, otherwise you can't speak of freewill.

I guess that's why "free will" is never mentioned as something we have been gifted in the Bible. I hear God hates it! But, he had to deal with it anyway.

I don't think God hates freewill, it how we chose to use it.

I don't think the God from the Old Testament cared for it too much. I mean, you can blame the whole Adam and Eve debacle on them being naive, and seduced by the serpent, but after that!? I mean God killed a guy for masturbating, another one for accidentally falling against the Ark of the Covenant, He threw plagues at Egypt because of their Pharoah's free will, had Jonah swallowed by a big fish for exercising his free will, and on and on.

I see free will as the choice to exist in mind or exist in the essence that exists before mind. When we living in the will of the mind we are existing in evil. When we are living in the essence before mind we are existing in the will of the Father.

The mind can love. But that love is always limited and self serving. Even the love of partner is dependent on the happiness that partner brings to our self serving ego. When people love Jesus for all that he provides them. That love also comes from the self serving ego. Seeing Jesus like a cow. That has provided them with milk.

Whereas love from the essence of the Father has no limits nor requires any requisites. That essence loves all.

Well said.

Thank you my friend.

^_^

originally posted by: KnowItAllKnowNothin
a reply to: FlyersFan

This is an invitation to look beyond the standard definitions of those words.
Beyond books, dogma, and doctrine.
Beyond what we have been told.
Beyond all of the stories of man.

What all humans, of all cultures and faiths, may experience.
The ages-old internal battle of the two wolves.

We can call it God vs the devil, as that is a product of our culture.
What I am really interested-in, is what is felt, meant, when using those words.

Because words are merely pointers, to concepts, ideas, feelings, beliefs, etc.

I want to look beyond the words, and beyond the concepts, ideas, feelings, beliefs, etc.

I have to agree with you partly because there is no need for books, doctrine, dogma, just as you said. That will make the abrahamic religions (and all other religions) a thing of the past.

Speaking of Jesus I very much doubt he ever existed (like I said in another thread) and I don't see how doctrine/dogma and the believe in the supernatural world can enhance free will. The abrahamic religions for example tend to enslave the individual and don't encourage free will.

Most neuroscientists say free will is an illusion. I do believe that the holy Spirit overrides this although other than that do we really know why we do the things we do.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: theatreboy

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: FlyersFan

So you have to bring them up, otherwise you can't speak of freewill.

I guess that's why "free will" is never mentioned as something we have been gifted in the Bible. I hear God hates it! But, he had to deal with it anyway.

I don't think God hates freewill, it how we chose to use it.

I don't think the God from the Old Testament cared for it too much. I mean, you can blame the whole Adam and Eve debacle on them being naive, and seduced by the serpent, but after that!? I mean God killed a guy for masturbating, another one for accidentally falling against the Ark of the Covenant, He threw plagues at Egypt because of their Pharoah's free will, had Jonah swallowed by a big fish for exercising his free will, and on and on.

That is where we differ.

I grew up religious. When to school for my EE degree with a minor in Biblical Studies with the plan to go on to be a preacher. I prayed for wisdom and knowledge every day for years. I did not want to be smart, I wanted to be wise.

I fell in love with rock and roll. I walked away from God. I lived it. Everyday. Being buzzed 24/7 became a chore.

I quit drinking almost 3 years ago. I am doing better in life and my career than I ever imagined.

About 1 year of sobriety, a friend of mine was struggling. He quit about the same time as me.

He was going on about all the tough times and consequences his choices made. No different than me or any of us, sober or not.

And that is when it hit me:

When I was younger, I prayed for wisdom. I made my choices, and lived with the consequences.

And I learned...I was given that wisdom I asked for. Wisdom comes from pain.

But this change that is happening in me, is truly making me a better person to those around me, and hence the world in general...if only a tiny way.

This understanding and learning brings growth, and a peace I have never known.

I am not perfect, never will be. I lost my patience on a gig last week and snapped at both the road crew and my crew. I don't usually raise my voice, it startled even me. I bought break for everyone, said sorry for snapping....but get your # together.

I will continue my search, listening deep to my soul, and try to do what is right. To grow everyday.

And besides, this world is truly beautiful, but you can't see the beauty when you are mad at it.

originally posted by: bluemooone44
Most neuroscientists say free will is an illusion. I do believe that the holy Spirit overrides this although other than that do we really know why we do the things we do.

Something I don't get from your explanation.

What do you mean by 'the holy spirit overrides this'?

originally posted by: theatreboy

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: theatreboy

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: FlyersFan

So you have to bring them up, otherwise you can't speak of freewill.

I guess that's why "free will" is never mentioned as something we have been gifted in the Bible. I hear God hates it! But, he had to deal with it anyway.

I don't think God hates freewill, it how we chose to use it.

I don't think the God from the Old Testament cared for it too much. I mean, you can blame the whole Adam and Eve debacle on them being naive, and seduced by the serpent, but after that!? I mean God killed a guy for masturbating, another one for accidentally falling against the Ark of the Covenant, He threw plagues at Egypt because of their Pharoah's free will, had Jonah swallowed by a big fish for exercising his free will, and on and on.

That is where we differ.

I grew up religious. When to school for my EE degree with a minor in Biblical Studies with the plan to go on to be a preacher. I prayed for wisdom and knowledge every day for years. I did not want to be smart, I wanted to be wise.

I fell in love with rock and roll. I walked away from God. I lived it. Everyday. Being buzzed 24/7 became a chore.

I quit drinking almost 3 years ago. I am doing better in life and my career than I ever imagined.

About 1 year of sobriety, a friend of mine was struggling. He quit about the same time as me.

He was going on about all the tough times and consequences his choices made. No different than me or any of us, sober or not.

And that is when it hit me:

When I was younger, I prayed for wisdom. I made my choices, and lived with the consequences.

And I learned...I was given that wisdom I asked for. Wisdom comes from pain.

But this change that is happening in me, is truly making me a better person to those around me, and hence the world in general...if only a tiny way.

This understanding and learning brings growth, and a peace I have never known.

I am not perfect, never will be. I lost my patience on a gig last week and snapped at both the road crew and my crew. I don't usually raise my voice, it startled even me. I bought break for everyone, said sorry for snapping....but get your # together.

I will continue my search, listening deep to my soul, and try to do what is right. To grow everyday.

And besides, this world is truly beautiful, but you can't see the beauty when you are mad at it.

The world cannot be 'beautiful' for those who starve and suffer or are very sick, the homeless, and a a range of people who live in the margins.

You said you don't think God hates freewill.

Does God exist? And when you mentioned God you probably meant the Christian version of the abrahamic character in the bible?

a reply to: davidstrickland

Thanks for your post DS.

I share your feelings of, some kind of a deep gratitude, for this experience.
We transcend the struggling and suffering mind, to get the F over ourselves and our egos, to finally see the world as it is.

Those are the thoughts that come, when reading your beautiful shing of your " awakening ."

It is precisely for souls like you, that this thread is born.
So very glad that you found it at this time, and decided to sign-up and reply.

... then progressed to my personal ethos =- "the law of love". Whatever I am doing or plan to do (or say or go) - I run it through the filter of love (does this show love to other, my self and my understanding of God) ...

Yes !
That's the crux of my OP !
( I should have consulted with you before, so I wouldn't have been so long-winded ... LoL ! )

In every moment, we have the choice : Love, or not-Love.
I recognize it, because my ego is still strong.

My ego, somehow, always blurts-out the first answer.
I have learned to pause, and look at the situation upside-down, or a different angle, or any other way that pops.

Have learned to just wait, and listen to what the other wolf has to say.

I'm also interested in meeting kindred spirits.
Perhaps it's one of the reasons for making threads like this ?

Here is a coffee for you, me, and the other one reading this thread ... LoL !

a reply to: theatreboy

Well, here's where I think we differ. You think "GOD" is that guy from the Old Testament, and I don't.

As far as free will. I have to agree with Degredation33, we don't really have free will.

To my thinking the holy Spirit can guide us and we can choose to follow or not. Other that that our brains gona kinda do what it wants. May be wrong. a reply to: theatreboy

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: theatreboy

Well, here's where I think we differ. You think "GOD" is that guy from the Old Testament, and I don't.

As far as free will. I have to agree with Degredation33, we don't really have free will.

Lots of people believe God is that marvelous character from the old testament...

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: theatreboy

Well, here's where I think we differ. You think "GOD" is that guy from the Old Testament, and I don't.

As far as free will. I have to agree with Degredation33, we don't really have free will.

Actually, no. Yes, I grew up protestant.

God is so much more than anything we can perceive. And I can not judge the path you are on, for that path is for you alone.

I believe each religion, including the new religion of science, have a shard of the truth in them . Study those lessons, and put them together. That is who I believe God is.

@Venkuish1

You look at their world through your eyes. Life is not easy for any of us. It is my belief we are on this world to shed our materialistic desires.

I can be happy with nothing. And I had nothing after burning my world down. I believe each of us have our own lessons to leave this plane and move on from this every recycling world.

As far as free will, I think we have it.

But that sentence struck me:

Is the fundamental difference between the left and right the fact that those on the right believe we have free will and can work hard and live the life we choose...and those on the left don't believe in free will? Hence why they are always so negative.