regardless of your politics, looking at this from the outside is scary

a reply to: network dude

I read this post again this morning. You know - for fun

It pretty much explains why it's possible this country will no longer be able to have nice things

Democracy depends on reasoned people. And that's not even the biggest problem. The bigger problem is that a large portion of the population doesn't believe in or even want a democracy any more

Koch just got behind Ms. Haley's campaign. A regretful Koch by the way. I'm sure he's just a big ole RINO, but he does have some cash

There's a lot of daylight between me and Nikki in the wants and needs and philosophy categories. But I sincerely hope she pummels DonDon into dust

I have a hunch about her. The world will survive with Nikki Haley

If Biden doesn't win of course 😉

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I feel like I have to ask, do you think Trump and his supporters are not "reasoned people"?

a reply to: network dude

I feel like I have to ask, do you think Trump and his supporters are not "reasoned people"?

What a great question :-)

I don't want to give you a short answer, because I think maybe a short answer will feel insulting - and that is not at all what I want to do

I think this idea of allegiance, along with all the polarization - makes it possible for people to accept things they otherwise would not ever in their wildest dreams have accepted earlier on. We all tend to cling to people that make us feel safe, and secure - and help us feel righteous

I know it will sound like I'm just trying to play nice, but this is also happening on the left - or in every category if you're as sick of the whole left/right thing as I am. It is for real happening everywhere - all over the world. It's a bit like the whole frog in a pot of water scenario. We keep turning up the heat and tolerating it until we can't any more

I'm not a huge fan of pithy sayings, but I do have a few I keep as screensavers. One is: Examine what you tolerate

I think that you guys (can I call you you guys?) have been fed a steady diet of how evil the left is for so long you just believe it now. I can assure you the same thing is happening on the left about the right. The problem is, there are people who will happily take advantage of this situation until we're all left with trying to appease whatever group manages to actually take control. That's my simple answer

I think reason has left the room in a lot of ways and now it's just dog paddling hard for shore. If you know what I mean

I keep waiting for signs that we can all work together - despite our differences

So, no - I don't honestly think Trump supporters are not reasoned. I know that to some that sounds the same as stupid - and I don't mean that either. I know several smart and reasoned people that are Trump supporters in my own personal life

I actually meant that Democracy depends on rational thinkers. I honestly don't think many people fit in that category right now. Not even me. Fear rules the day and when it does we make panicky choices

a reply to: network dude

I feel like I have to ask, do you think Trump and his supporters are not "reasoned people"?

I would like to respond to this, too.

The question, as phrased, lumps Trump and his supporters into a single category. I don’t think this is reflective of the true situation. Many Trump supporters feel that he speaks for them; no doubt he does, but not for all of them, and not all the time. Some Trumpites even believe he’s ‘one of us’, and that isn’t true either. Trump is a very unusual person, and what he wants may not be exactly what his supporters want, or what they think they’ll get from him. Be that as it may, I should like to answer the question with respect to Trump supporters only, and leave the psychoanalysis of Donald Trump to those who know him better than I.

Are Trump supporters reasoning, reasonable people? For the most part, by normal standards, of course they are.

However, many reasoning, reasonable people have no trouble believing things that don’t stand to reason, things that, to other people, can seem irrational, fantastical and false. Nobody locks these believers up in insane asylums, though; nobody doubts, ipso facto, the rationality of their views and judgements on any subject that doesn’t involve their beliefs.

I speak, of course, of the religious. Religious beliefs can seem absurd and obviously false to people who don’t share them. But − to everyone except the militantly atheistic, and those who believe fanatically in a different faith − nobody thinks the people who hold them are crazy. Religion (like love, like fandom) is one of those spheres of human activity that provide a relatively safe outlet for our inherent irrationality. Only relatively safe, mark you; still, for every spit-flying Islamist or born-again abortion-clinic bomber, there are millions of decent, harmless Muslims and Evangelicals who hurt no-one, and to whom their faith is an indispensable solace and stay.

However, the therapeutic exercise of sanctioned irrationality is only even relatively safe when it is confined within the bounds that separate our loves, our passions and our faith from the practical departments of everyday life. When it crosses those boundaries, vast damage ensues.

Democratic government and the administration of states are among the practical departments of life in which irrationality has no place.

Trumpism, looked at ‘from the outside’ as you have been urging us to do, is a tsunami of irrationality that has broken its socially sanctioned bounds (the entertainment media and popular folklore) and inundated a department of life (government and administration) in which it can do, and indeed has done, a vast amount of economic, social and ultimately human damage. People have made articles of faith out of Trump’s claims, denying the evidence of history, science and contemporary reality in order to do so. However outrageous his actions and statements, they uncritically endorse them because they are his. When it comes to the most serious issues facing the country, Trumpites don’t act according to empirical knowledge and reasoned belief but are propelled by their emotions. They are not acting like rational people − though, like every other person caught in the vice of irrationality, they believe they are acting perfectly rationally.

Rather than provoke further argument by citing examples of this irrationality from current affairs and the media, let me give you one from right here on ATS, and a personal one at that. Times without number, Trumpites on this site have called me a ‘Commie’, a Socialist, a radical or extreme Leftist. Unless these words have ceased to mean what they have always done, these accusations are false to the point of absurdity. My politics are, by normal standards, slightly left of centre on social issues and slightly right of centre on economic ones. But Trumpites on ATS have drifted so far from reality that, to them, anyone who doesn’t share the MAGA platform is an extremist, a Leftist, a RINO, a Commie, et cetera.

And so we come at last to the correct answer to your question. Trump supporters are (for the most part) rational people, but not when they’re being Trump supporters. On the subjects of government and the administration of the country, matters in which faith, impulse and unexamined belief have no place, they act like religious fanatics. Often they abandon the tenets of their professed religion (Christianity) in order to do so. This is profoundly irrational, as well as being morally wrong.

Populism is not, and never has been, a viable system of government. The train of state rattles along at a merry pace until the first bend appears in the tracks, then it leaves the rails and makes an almighty smash. Sadly, this is a truth that people seem to have to learn over and over again, somewhere in the world, every few years. You’d have thought that Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler between them would have made the lesson stick for a century or two but alas, it never seems to take.

To be fair, the tendency of unreason to infect politics is very common and certainly not confined to Trump supporters. As Spiramirabilis would surely admit, there are people on the Left who are equally prone to let irrationality govern their politics. Some political systems appear rational in their arguments, but if you look closer you’ll see that they are founded on irrational premises and are therefore false in and of themselves. Trumpism is very much one of these. It is predicated, not on any real social or economic problems that exist in America (which is not to say that such problems do not exist) but on a series of perceived problems or ‘issues’ and proposed solutions that are only glancingly connected to real life. The problems are either not really problems (urban crime, to take a well-documented instance) and the solutions Trump offers won’t solve them in any case. Usually his ‘solutions’ boil down to depriving already disempowered people of their rights and hurting them, gratuitously and often sadistically, to give satisfaction to the darker impulses of his constituency − a constituency that believes itself to be a majority. That too is a false belief (otherwise there would have been no need to make this thread in the first place) but even if it were true, that would give Trump and his fans no right to persecute others.

One day, a few years from now, reality will rudely awaken ordinary Trumpites from their faith-based political fantasies. If Trump wins in 2024, it will delay the awakening for a few extra years, though only at the price of making it even more shattering when it finally arrives. But perhaps such a radical adjustment is necessary before a viable social contract among Americans can emerge. The hangover of the Civil War has been absurdly long; perhaps at last it is coming to an end.

a reply to: Astyanax
"That's amazin' "
Jesse Lee Petersen

Network Dude
That question was beautiful man.
I have so much to say but I ain't saying nuttin.
Wow.
I will say this though.
Tell me you work for the government without saying you work for the government.

That is a very enlightening follow up of another very enlightening post.

These people actually think and believe this don't they?

That's amazing

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

So, no - I don't honestly think Trump supporters are not reasoned. I know that to some that sounds the same as stupid - and I don't mean that either. I know several smart and reasoned people that are Trump supporters in my own personal life

I actually meant that Democracy depends on rational thinkers. I honestly don't think many people fit in that category right now. Not even me. Fear rules the day and when it does we make panicky choices

first off, thanks very much for a well thought out response. I do think we can learn more from dialog rather than snippy one liners, though they can teach some wicked witty responses for use later.

I really don't grasp how we can all look at the same set of events and see them so vastly different. I saw the end results of the Trump era as a net positive. I cringed each time he said stupid things, and started twitter fights with insignificant people. I even got angry over his blathering about McCain, although I don't like McCain or his policies, his capture and internment aren't something anyong should disparage. So I think it's important to know, we see it too. We just don't think it's as important as the deeds, at least I don't. I feel like his out of the box thinking and approaches to the same old issues with new ideas was an eye opener for what could be done if we actually wanted to solve issues, and not just perpetuate them for political expedience of both parties to use as wedge issues. In a nutshell, the lack of war, idea of peace, and sense of concern for our sovereignty made me accept he could be worth another term.

Conversely, as I look at what's going on right now, I don't like it. Now keep in mind, this isn't what "the news" is telling me, or some devil on my shoulder whispering how bad "the dems" are in my ear. This is me looking at current events. The open border is a gargantuan issue for me. I honestly don't grasp how you and other democrats are fine with this. A complete aside from the "now" issue of feeding, housing, and finding a place to put them, the part where bad men are sneaking in, joining other bad men, and planning bad things is a future worry, and it's not going away, that ship has sailed, and it's just a matter of time before it pops off.

The clown world aspect is annoying, but it's largely harmless. I think it's a distraction to keep the conversation off the border. But I do agree with you that we are largely reacting and not really thinking through a lot of conversations and that is a bad direction to go, when trying to unite us or at the very least, understand why each other thinks like they do.

I won't pressure you into answering, but if you do feel like sharing, I would like to know how you see the open border aspect of the current admin. Is it a good thing, or a bad thing. If not, have a super day.

a reply to: network dude

I appreciate this reply Network. It's good

I'm going to wait until I'm on my laptop to respond. I'm all thumbs on my phone

a reply to: network dude

My day had a mind of its own, but I’m here finally

Here’s what I know about you Network. You actually give a sh!t I see things differently from you (often), but these are things that are important to you, and you are constantly here writing about them. But as often as we disagree, I think much of it is seen through the partisan lens. Most humans want similar things. And we’re both human

I do think we can learn more from dialog rather than snippy one liners, though they can teach some wicked witty responses for use later.

I actually like snippy one liners :-)

I really don't grasp how we can all look at the same set of events and see them so vastly different.

You and me both. I think this is why we’re here right now having this conversation

People want to believe they’re right and the other person is wrong. I do believe that most people want to do the right thing. When we begin to realize a situation isn’t simple we chicken out and make it simple. The minute we understand a situation we then have to accept responsibility for our thinking and our actions. It’s easier to pretend we don’t understand, then let the safety of the crowd tell us what to think. It’s far less personal responsibility and we don’t have to feel as bad about our choices

This goes for both sides - or every side

I think it's important to know, we see it too.

I like that you said that. It makes me feel like I’m talking to a spy. Or an emissary :-)

In a nutshell, the lack of war, idea of peace, and sense of concern for our sovereignty made me accept he could be worth another term.

Those are honorable goals. Do you believe that Trump the man actually believes in these things? The way it looks to me, he captured the attention of a large group of people with his - we’ll just call it moxie. People saw a way to harness that energy, then use that momentum to win the White House. Which - fair enough

I don’t see Trump as being a man of integrity. I do see people using Trump as a kind of tool (heh) or a weapon. There are other men and women who could also tackle these things you believe in without turning the whole shebang into a regime. People who would be willing to work with the other party for the good of the country. But, that’s no longer allowed it seems. The left has become such a bogeyman that you no longer see us as countrymen

This - I am here to tell you - is how it looks and feels to us. Though I have to say, I don’t actually feel like I belong to an us. I registered as an Independent ages ago - back when I thought that meant something. It’s meaningless now. The polarization has pushed both groups further and further out to the fringes. Independents aren't independent of anything. It’s beyond concerning

This is where the disconnect happens for me. It feels like it’s become a win any way you can situation - and the only goal is power. People who won’t fall in line are very openly rejected. In fact they’re cancelled. People who have always been conservative are no longer conservative enough. People who are clearly liberal are no longer liberal in the right ways

Dissent is useful and important to governing. This all begins to look like something other than a democracy. It begins to feel a bit Mao-ish/Stalinish

The open border is a gargantuan issue for me. I honestly don't grasp how you and other democrats are fine with this.

Immigration is too big a subject to tackle in this one conversation. All my grandparents were immigrants - fleeing bigotry, violence, war and poverty. I didn’t have to live through any of that myself, but my views on this are going to be biased. That doesn’t mean I can’t see some of the problems involved. First we all need to be on the same page - and since that’s not going to happen anytime soon we’ll just keep creating policy patches and undoing each others work. It’s the immigrants who will suffer from our insanity on this issue, and they’re going to keep coming. Like I said - this is a huge topic

Look at the political split happening now in Europe over immigration. North Africa and the Middle East pouring across the borders - and why? War. Immigration has been used as a tool to split public opinion. Immigration terrifies people - so it’s a very effective tool

Meanwhile there are the immigrants

…the part where bad men are sneaking in, joining other bad men, and planning bad things is a future worry, and it's not going away, that ship has sailed, and it's just a matter of time before it pops off.

True enough. So, as long as immigration is handled humanely and rationally we’ve got nothing to lose

Look - Hamas just committed unimaginably horrible crimes on a huge scale inside Israel - and Israel has one of the toughest militaries around as well as what was supposed to be one of the best intelligence agencies in the world. It still happened

We can and must tackle these problems without punishing poor, desperate people

But I do agree with you that we are largely reacting and not really thinking through a lot of conversations and that is a bad direction to go, when trying to unite us or at the very least, understand why each other thinks like they do.

For what it’s worth I think things are changing. I’m not always this optimistic, but I am today

I won't pressure you into answering, but if you do feel like sharing, I would like to know how you see the open border aspect of the current admin. Is it a good thing, or a bad thing. If not, have a super day.

See above :-)

You have a super day too

originally posted by: Threadbarer
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Their plans are right there on their website.

That's terrific, you should be more concerned with getting ready for the next big solar flare. You know, the X Class one that will knock out the worldwide electrical grid, plus the subsequent micro-nova. All it takes is one large earth directed blast during this time of magnetic excursion and pole reversal and we are toast.

Regardless however, in politics and society, the pendulum swings and the more extreme one side is, it will ultimately lead to the more extreme the other side will be. If the woke tools and useful idiots there paid more attention to "reality" rather than their "feewings" maybe they wouldn't have pushed so hard for woke-fascism.

All I know, too many woke-ass zombies out there and I am seriously tired of it as are many others. I am the point where, hey, bring on the civil war, we're all going to be dead in 15 years anyway. lol

Cheers - Dave

All true a reply to: Allaroundya4k

a reply to: network dude

of course people are afraid, trumps stated policies will be the end of our position as a superpower, which our enemies will use to isolate us and start exerting influence over us in a way no nation ever has. trump will be the end of America as a sovereign nation.

just remember, before we created the UN and NATO and the imf and all that we weren't a superpower and had no real influence, do people really want to go back to being a developing nation with no influence where other nations can push us around again?

a reply to: namehere

You do realize you are explaining what the current admin is doing. The world leaders are scared of Trump because he wants us to be a superpower and not a cog in the global wheel.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

There is No Democracy in America , it's a Constitutional Republic...............For the Thousandth Time Mentioned here on ATS .

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: network dude

of course people are afraid, trumps stated policies will be the end of our position as a superpower, which our enemies will use to isolate us and start exerting influence over us in a way no nation ever has. trump will be the end of America as a sovereign nation.

just remember, before we created the UN and NATO and the imf and all that we weren't a superpower and had no real influence, do people really want to go back to being a developing nation with no influence where other nations can push us around again?

Thank You.

YES!

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