Censoring and Silencing University Staff and Students who criticise the State of Israel

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Leviathan4

Mrs Suzanne Weiss for example who is a holocaust survivor is very critical of Israel and has spoken about war crimes committed by Israel against the Palestinians, spoken about Gaza being a concentration camp and a death camp.

Is she also anti-semitic or a self hating Jew?

That's why you cannot expand or try to redefine already defined terms, for political and ideological purposes.

There is a line between being critical and dropping into antisemitism. She is a professional social activist on a lot of levels, so does being a holocaust survivor give her special street creds that she is actually right no matter what she says?

Here is one of her phrases "Palestinians and natives of Turtle Island, they have been both colonized and subjected to ethnic cleansing.”

Here is another...

"She expressed her deep concern about a new rise of antisemitism, a hatred of Jewish people, but she emphasized, “Antisemitism is not caused by Palestinians. Hatred of Jews is a form of racism, deeply rooted in European society and closely linked to white supremacy. We need to reject racism.”

Seems she associates Antisemitism with White people and of course, the Muslims love the Jews, just ask them...

Oh, we have more...

"“The victims of the climate crisis are mostly people of colour in the Global South. The racists have an answer: build walls, keep them out. If racism and climate barbarism triumph, they will infect and poison every aspect of our lives and destroy our world.” The phrase “climate barbarism” was coined by Canadian author, social activist, and filmmaker Naomi Klein, to refer to the combination of white supremacist violence and vicious anti-immigrant actions."

She might not be Antisemitic, but she sure is anti-White...lol I'm sure the Nazis had something to do with that.

I would say she is an extremist and I would not use her as an example.

Yes I see where you going but a holocaust survivor is an extremist? Because she has denounced and condemned the actions of Israel in Gaza? It's not really convincing as an argument as you may guess...

There are similar non convincing arguments online but nobody takes them seriously. Anti-semitic Jews or self hating Jews are labels that are frankly ridiculous and just make things even worse who those who support unequivocally Israel.

And she isn't the only Jew who has fiercely criticised Israel. As for the anti-semitic card, it has been played again and again and it's a very weak card. Having usually the opposite effects.

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
a reply to: Leviathan4

The university should foster a civil discussion. And unless one goes all Goebbels' style during a debate, criticizing the political actions of the state of Israel qualifies as neither hate speech nor antisemitism. Unfortunately, when people have their views challenged, they often pull out either a race, ethnicity card or a gender card or any other card that allows them to play the role of a privileged victim.

That being said, I think we shouldn't be all too harsh on the president Gay if we take into account that she was under the constant pressure put on her by the belligerent special snowflakes from Guillette's Accuracy in Media:

Harvard doxxing truck parks outside homes of students who blamed Israel for Hamas attacks

Now, the funny thing is that it's not only about the hurt feelings of Jewish students. When you search a little bit about Accuracy in Media, their self-righteous outcry against the alleged antisemitism is really interesting considering the history of their activism. AIM supported the war in Vietnam, in Iraq and El Mozote Massacre. It's largely been the government's underdog financed by several oil companies. Perhaps, do ligt der hunt bagrobn?

Absolutely!

:

originally posted by: Leviathan4

Yes I see where you going but a holocaust survivor is an extremist? Because she has denounced and condemned the actions of Israel in Gaza? It's not really convincing as an argument as you may guess...

You and a few others keep mixing up things. With her and many of you here it is not just "denounced and condemned the actions of Israel in Gaza" as we both can agree on many levels there. It is the level that you express yourselves in that action, the words you use to denounce that changes everything and pushes your views and others to the extremist side of anti-Israel... I save anti-Semitism for those who go even further to suggest Jews need to die. You and others basically suggest Israel is the worst country while the reality is they are the least worst in the ME even with this current event. They need 100,000s or even millions of deaths to reach the levels of other ME countries as a start, and so many other evil actions that are a norm in other ME countries would be hard to list.

That is why I ask people why do they have this extreme anti-Israel sentiment when they do not look twice as to what other countries do. Where are your 500 posts on Saudi killing 400k+ women and children in Yemen, for example? Here though you put a lot of effort into Israel while having ZERO connections to Gaza or the ME most of the time. Why?

Her comments are extreme and very wrong on many levels no matter who she is. From the river to the sea is not a joke in what a good number of ME countries would do to Israel if they could. And to have many of these ME countries condemn Israel for their actions is like a Mofia Boss commending a person stealing a pack of gum in comparison to what they do in their own countries.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Leviathan4

Yes I see where you going but a holocaust survivor is an extremist? Because she has denounced and condemned the actions of Israel in Gaza? It's not really convincing as an argument as you may guess...

You and a few others keep mixing up things. With her and many of you here it is not just "denounced and condemned the actions of Israel in Gaza" as we both can agree on many levels there. It is the level that you express yourselves in that action, the words you use to denounce that changes everything and pushes your views and others to the extremist side of anti-Israel... I save anti-Semitism for those who go even further to suggest Jews need to die. You and others basically suggest Israel is the worst country while the reality is they are the least worst in the ME even with this current event. They need 100,000s or even millions of deaths to reach the levels of other ME countries as a start, and so many other evil actions that are a norm in other ME countries would be hard to list.

That is why I ask people why do they have this extreme anti-Israel sentiment when they do not look twice as to what other countries do. Where are your 500 posts on Saudi killing 400k+ women and children in Yemen, for example? Here though you put a lot of effort into Israel while having ZERO connections to Gaza or the ME most of the time. Why?

Her comments are extreme and very wrong on many levels no matter who she is. From the river to the sea is not a joke in what a good number of ME countries would do to Israel if they could. And to have many of these ME countries condemn Israel for their actions is like a Mofia Boss commending a person stealing a pack of gum in comparison to what they do in their own countries.

No I don't think so.
The mixing up comes from those who give unequivocal support to Israel that has committed a range of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Even you can recognise that this has happened.

What do you want us to do? Do you expect me or others to sanitise their language and thoughts so not to 'offend' those who believe in Israel and not to offend the State of Israel....

You forget something very important together with the facts. Israel has committed a range of war crimes and crimes against humanity and has murdered tens of thousands of innocent civilians and wounded even more, some of them really badly. But equally important is the fact that the State of Israel has been hijacked by a group of ultra right wing fascistoids who not only command the Government and the Army but they are often openly advocate for even more mass killings, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

So the language used is appropriate and any sane person together with the staff and students at any University or School (topic of this thread) or any other citizen and professional will call our the crimes committed by Israel by just denouncing and condemning them. The least someone can do under the circumstances.

originally posted by: Leviathan4

So the language used is appropriate and any sane person together with the staff and students at any University or School (topic of this thread) or any other citizen and professional will call our the crimes committed by Israel by just denouncing and condemning them. The least someone can do under the circumstances.

No matter how you look at it you all are pushing a double standard here. Once again where are your 500 posts or even 1 on the other countries that have killed millions? You also just look at numbers and scream war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and ethnic cleansing over and over and over like a broken record. You do not look at the actual attacks and the purpose of them. At about 1 death per attack, they are not doing a very good job of your points. We know what 1000s of randomly launched rockets and kill everyone you can mentality means, we know what keeping civilians around you and having your military in areas that are war crimes in your face as Hamas always has done.

But I see no screaming from your side for what Hamas did or is still doing to the civilian population there. You just believe what they say and when they say well don't look over there you are OK with that. If you put equal effort into both sides you might see a different picture, but your anti-Israel hate is strong and I think it's been that way a long time.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Leviathan4

So the language used is appropriate and any sane person together with the staff and students at any University or School (topic of this thread) or any other citizen and professional will call our the crimes committed by Israel by just denouncing and condemning them. The least someone can do under the circumstances.

No matter how you look at it you all are pushing a double standard here. Once again where are your 500 posts or even 1 on the other countries that have killed millions? You also just look at numbers and scream war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and ethnic cleansing over and over and over like a broken record. You do not look at the actual attacks and the purpose of them. At about 1 death per attack, they are not doing a very good job of your points. We know what 1000s of randomly launched rockets and kill everyone you can mentality means, we know what keeping civilians around you and having your military in areas that are war crimes in your face as Hamas always has done.

But I see no screaming from your side for what Hamas did or is still doing to the civilian population there. You just believe what they say and when they say well don't look over there you are OK with that. If you put equal effort into both sides you might see a different picture, but your anti-Israel hate is strong and I think it's been that way a long time.

That is a bogus argument you made for once more. I don't need to make threads about the history of different genocides and ethnic cleansings around the world. Although I have done in other sites sometime ago when it was appropriate to do so. The fact is that the conflict in Israel-Palestine has monopolised the media in the last 6 weeks due to its brutality and very high number of people killed, especially civilians.

As I said earlier

You forget something very important together with the facts. Israel has committed a range of war crimes and crimes against humanity and has murdered tens of thousands of innocent civilians and wounded even more, some of them really badly. But equally important is the fact that the State of Israel has been hijacked by a group of ultra right wing fascistoids who not only command the Government and the Army but they are often openly advocate for even more mass killings, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Hamas has already been condemned by me and everyone else who wants a ceasefire and peace. So your argument doesn't hold at all. You don't even watch the threads to see what every member said. And most importantly we can't sanitise our language so not to 'offend' the Israeli supporters. You guys need to be concerned with more important mattes such as the war crimes committed by Israel and how this situation will come to an end.

originally posted by: Leviathan4
Hamas has already been condemned by me and everyone else who wants a ceasefire and peace. So your argument doesn't hold at all. You don't even watch the threads to see what every member said. And most importantly we can't sanitise our language so not to 'offend' the Israeli supporters. You guys need to be concerned with more important mattes such as the war crimes committed by Israel and how this situation will come to an end.

It will come to an end when Hamas is gone....

Ok, we are going round and round so I'll go a different direction. By your standards, EVERY country that has had any type of fighting has committed war crimes including America and Britain.

So I ask you ....SO WHAT?

If Russia can currently kill 100,000s, Syria 100,000s, China kill/encamp, indoctrinate millions, the US/Britain kill 100,000s over decades, Saudi kill 400,000 civilians over a short period of time, and so on and so forth...

SO WHAT?????????????????????????????????????????????

What do you want to do that hasn't been done with any other country that is 100x worse than all the Jews have done?

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: Leviathan4

I suppose they don't support thinking for yourself in universities anymore. I may be wrong but the way I have been reading things in the passing years is that college professors are alot more wrong about morality in any subject than right. What do you believe?

They haven’t for a long while now… they support mostly the free speech of Marxist Professors and radicals to speak out against capitalism and free enterprise solutions. Bill Ayers comes to mind. By the way, he and his partner Bernadine Dohrn were behind the instigation of student anti-war demonstrations at Kent State, and we know how that went.

originally posted by: Leviathan4

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Leviathan4

So the language used is appropriate and any sane person together with the staff and students at any University or School (topic of this thread) or any other citizen and professional will call our the crimes committed by Israel by just denouncing and condemning them. The least someone can do under the circumstances.

No matter how you look at it you all are pushing a double standard here. Once again where are your 500 posts or even 1 on the other countries that have killed millions? You also just look at numbers and scream war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and ethnic cleansing over and over and over like a broken record. You do not look at the actual attacks and the purpose of them. At about 1 death per attack, they are not doing a very good job of your points. We know what 1000s of randomly launched rockets and kill everyone you can mentality means, we know what keeping civilians around you and having your military in areas that are war crimes in your face as Hamas always has done.

But I see no screaming from your side for what Hamas did or is still doing to the civilian population there. You just believe what they say and when they say well don't look over there you are OK with that. If you put equal effort into both sides you might see a different picture, but your anti-Israel hate is strong and I think it's been that way a long time.

That is a bogus argument you made for once more. I don't need to make threads about the history of different genocides and ethnic cleansings around the world. Although I have done in other sites sometime ago when it was appropriate to do so. The fact is that the conflict in Israel-Palestine has monopolised the media in the last 6 weeks due to its brutality and very high number of people killed, especially civilians.

As I said earlier

You forget something very important together with the facts. Israel has committed a range of war crimes and crimes against humanity and has murdered tens of thousands of innocent civilians and wounded even more, some of them really badly. But equally important is the fact that the State of Israel has been hijacked by a group of ultra right wing fascistoids who not only command the Government and the Army but they are often openly advocate for even more mass killings, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Hamas has already been condemned by me and everyone else who wants a ceasefire and peace. So your argument doesn't hold at all. You don't even watch the threads to see what every member said. And most importantly we can't sanitise our language so not to 'offend' the Israeli supporters. You guys need to be concerned with more important mattes such as the war crimes committed by Israel and how this situation will come to an end.

Whenever someone starts talking about “ ultra right fascistoids” I know that is code for people who won’t put up with leftist radical Marxism. And by the way, it’s sanitize, not “sanitise.”
I had to look up fascistoid. It is something that resembles fascism, so you can yell Fascism without directly calling someone a fascist. Well, let me tell you this…. Fascism is still part of the left leaning totalitarian ideology. People who believe in leftist socialism usually use it as a slur when they want to rail against “nationalism.” What is the difference between Israel wanting a State and Palestine wanting a State? What the DS really wants is a world of Open Border, that is a world with no National sovereignty of any nation. That is why our POTUS won’t secure our border, and the socialists love it because they hate “nationalism.” A particular group of people went against the Comintern, or International Communism, hence they had to be declared something “ ultra right”, when they were merely the right side of the leftist coin. Please read Antony Sutton to understand that. Since communism is the goal of socialism, and the fascists of yesterday were National Socialist, we can understand that they wanted socialism but with their own country intact. But let’s put something to rest here. Between socialism and communism, they have both resorted to mass killing of those who did not support world communism, the end goal of socialism. Some of the political elites today revere Mao, one of the most despotic of totalitarian communist leaders. And now, at least one individual who survived Mao’s revolution has written a book.
Now, back to the situation at hand. It is patently ridiculous to support Hamas to defend the Palestinians because they are a particular kind of people, then to condemn another people, that of Israel. In biblical terms, that is gog and Magog. By the way, some of the most ardent supporters of the State of Israel were the Labor Zionists.
en.m.wikipedia.org...

Labor Zionism (Hebrew: תְּנוּעָת הָעַבוֹדָה, romanized: tnuʽat haʽavoda) or socialist Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת סוֹצְיָאלִיסְטִית, romanized: tsiyonut sotzyalistit) refers to the left-wing, socialist variation of Zionism. For many years, it was the most significant tendency among Zionists and Zionist organizations, and was seen as the Zionist sector of the historic Jewish labour movements of Eastern Europe and Central Europe, eventually developing local units in most countries with sizable Jewish populations. Unlike the "political Zionist" tendency founded by Theodor Herzl and advocated by Chaim Weizmann, Labor Zionists did not believe that a Jewish state would be created by simply appealing to the international community or to powerful nations such as the United Kingdom, Germany, or the former Ottoman Empire. Rather, they believed that a Jewish state could only be created through the efforts of the Jewish working class making aliyah to the Land of Israel and raising a country through the creation of a Labor Jewish society with rural kibbutzim and moshavim, and an urban Jewish Proletariat.

So, to me, it appears as if those who tend to hate Zionism as some kind of ultra right fascist creation, that is proving my point that it is only those who support leftist ideology of socialism/communism which would bother to declare the state of Israel as having been hijacked by right wing extremists.
Now, the rest of my point is this: that the far left socialist Georgy Schwartz, also known as George Soros, has for several years funded pro Palestinian groups who support Hamas.
nypost.com...

Far-left billionaire kingmaker George Soros has funneled more than $15 million since 2016 to groups behind this month’s pro-Palestine protests, where demonstrators openly cheered Hamas militants’ craven terrorist attacks on Israel.

Soros and his Open Society organization are for open borders and world socialism.
I hope you understand the ramification of all this.

originally posted by: EyeoftheHurricane

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: Leviathan4

I suppose they don't support thinking for yourself in universities anymore. I may be wrong but the way I have been reading things in the passing years is that college professors are alot more wrong about morality in any subject than right. What do you believe?

They haven’t for a long while now… they support mostly the free speech of Marxist Professors and radicals to speak out against capitalism and free enterprise solutions. Bill Ayers comes to mind. By the way, he and his partner Bernadine Dohrn were behind the instigation of student anti-war demonstrations at Kent State, and we know how that went.

Being against the war isn't Marxism by the way or Hamas and terror support or any of the arguments made. One of them includes being called a Nazi sympathiser. Even Jews have been called Hamas supporters, antisemites, or self hating Jews.... These are desperate arguments.

Even though Universities are traditionally left wing the support for peace and prosperity doesn't really relate to left wing ideologies although there are more vocal people on the left part of the ideological spectrum.

a reply to: EyeoftheHurricane

don't support the ultra right wing fascistoids in Israel or here in the US and I don't have to be a Marxist to do so. I don't support Marxism or Communism either. I tend to move away from the extremes.

But it's a fact that Israel has ber hijacked by a group of ultra right wing fascistoids both in Government and in the Army and is heading in the very wrong direction.

On the topic of this thread, people cannot be censored for expressing their disapproval for the actions of Israel that has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians. It can't happen and will not happen. The labels of antisemitism are ridiculous and irrelevant in this case. More like desperate attempts to stop the criticisms but having no effect.

So since this thread started 12 days ago, 4 members on this thread who criticise the state of Israel have been banned so far. It does look like ATS is picking a side along with the universities.

Just how justified are Israel's actions if they cannot handle any criticism? What kind of ignorance is ATS going to deny when half the debate in a big, messy and serious issue is silenced?

originally posted by: kwaka
So since this thread started 12 days ago, 4 members on this thread who criticise the state of Israel have been banned so far. It does look like ATS is picking a side along with the universities.

Just how justified are Israel's actions if they cannot handle any criticism? What kind of ignorance is ATS going to deny when half the debate in a big, messy and serious issue is silenced?

That's really bad if it has happened.
I can see the OP isn't with us anymore but he/she has created a lot of threads on the conflict in the middle east having a quick view at their profile.

Censoring and silencing these University Students and Staff is unacceptable but isn't only seen there. It's a widespread practise just like when a lot of people were censored in the Covid era. And it is known that when something is an inconvenient truth then it's more likely going to be censored.

originally posted by: Leviathan4
a reply to: EyeoftheHurricane

don't support the ultra right wing fascistoids in Israel or here in the US and I don't have to be a Marxist to do so. I don't support Marxism or Communism either. I tend to move away from the extremes.

But it's a fact that Israel has ber hijacked by a group of ultra right wing fascistoids both in Government and in the Army and is heading in the very wrong direction.

On the topic of this thread, people cannot be censored for expressing their disapproval for the actions of Israel that has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians. It can't happen and will not happen. The labels of antisemitism are ridiculous and irrelevant in this case. More like desperate attempts to stop the criticisms but having no effect.

You're very right my friend.

originally posted by: kwaka
So since this thread started 12 days ago, 4 members on this thread who criticise the state of Israel have been banned so far. It does look like ATS is picking a side along with the universities.

Just how justified are Israel's actions if they cannot handle any criticism? What kind of ignorance is ATS going to deny when half the debate in a big, messy and serious issue is silenced?

Important detail.
Good that you brought it up.

a reply to: BiothermalReactor


People should be able to criticise anything they want and especially in a University or College. There is something called academic freedom that applies to staff and students. And doesn't really change no matter what a country and its representatives feel the rest of the world should do.

Hamas are not civilians they are enemy combatants. Every one of them is a legitimate target in Israel's war and I don't believe Israel has done anything wrong with the strikes on Hamas.

Anyone in the USA who supports Hamas is rabidly insane and I think they should be deported to Palestine to see exactly who it is they are supporting first-hand. I don't think most of them will enjoy the experience.

a reply to: CaptainX

This is all true but there's just one more thing. Every debate at the university should be kept within the boundaries of civility and mutual respect. And it's especially important if the students are of multi-ethnic background. The primary objective of the university authorities is to keep everyone safe in the university halls and the last thing anyone would want is to have a little domestic war between Jewish and Muslim students and their belligerent supporters.

I'm not saying this was the case here but the university or college authorities can use preemptive censorship; that is ban the discussions that can arouse too much enmity or violence between students.

Here’s just a snapshot of the mind rot in universities currently.
This is a q and a between students at Oxford and Ben Shapiro from 3 weeks ago.
All very current content regarding Israel hamas war.
As you’ll see the students are like a one legged person in a buttkicking contest.
If you want to skip the brief opening and get right to the q and a skip to about the 19 minute mark.
m.youtube.com...

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
a reply to: CaptainX

This is all true but there's just one more thing. Every debate at the university should be kept within the boundaries of civility and mutual respect. And it's especially important if the students are of multi-ethnic background. The primary objective of the university authorities is to keep everyone safe in the university halls and the last thing anyone would want is to have a little domestic war between Jewish and Muslim students and their belligerent supporters.

I'm not saying this was the case here but the university or college authorities can use preemptive censorship; that is ban the discussions that can arouse too much enmity or violence between students.

True. There must be civil discussion no matter how heated the debates are. But at the end of the day any attempt at censoring or silencing staff and students will backfire massively.