Historic Deception - US Gov UFO Investigations?

originally posted by: mirageman

Modern ufology's genesis can be extended back into WWII with the sightings of foo fighters and then the 'ghost rockets' reported over Scandinavia and other parts of Europe..

Good to see you MM.

Lots of disc/saucer shaped reports going way back before that but yes 1947 was a big year.

Just saw that the short lived 'Project A' also had a 20% unexplained rate - pretty similar results across different studies then.

There has not been enough sightings for proper analysis," Dr. Hickman asserts. However, he reports about 20 percent of the sightings reported to the university "cannot be explained away by ordinary procedure." And these unexplained phenomena have a general consistency— "a saucer-shaped object, flat on the bottom with rounded edges and rising to a slight dome on top." The color in these sightings is similar, all bright blue or green. Dr. Hickman also finds significance in that similar objects have been sighted throughout the nation, Canada and the world.

Historians trace the appearance of strange sky objects to 1762, Dr. Hickman says, with the first report in this country in 1873. But the rash of reports did not break out until the American people became "sky minded."

Project A: The Short Life of a UFO Study

originally posted by: mirageman

Meanwhile UFO reports of national security significance bypassed Blue Book and were given to the 4602nd Air Intelligence Squadron to investigate out of the public eye.

There used to be a good article (since taken down) speculating about the 4602 AISS and the mystery of extra 1000 unexplained UFO incident reports which went missing along the way - snippet with numbers below.

It is also worthy of noting that Air Force Blue Book recorded 2,344 sightings in the 1947 through 1952 time period. Special Report Number 14 said that the Air Force recorded 3,201 reports. This is nearly one thousand more reports than listed by Blue Book. Where did the extra reports come from?

Many suspect that these reports were collected by the 4602 AISS and that only reports which had more mundane explanations ever reached Blue Book.

And yet more 'missing' UFO reports from Bluebook, this time dealing with cases involving UFOs over nuclear installations:

Almost from the beginning of the Air Force UFO investigations, patterns were starting to emerge, and the cover-up was already in place. Researcher & NCP member, Jan Aldrich notes:

In a 1952 LOOK article, Ruppelt mentions a file of 63 cases of UFOs over nuclear installations, but such a file is not in currently declassified Blue Book files.]

NCP-16: National Security, Missing Files, The Nuclear Key

Really makes one wonder what they are so desperate to cover up.

originally posted by: mirageman

I don't believe the US military really knows too much more than the public does about UFOs.

Well they've got lots of lovely tech mate (see Schuessler quote here) and their internal documentation suggest they give the subject 'utmost priority' and consider it 'top secret'.

Maybe they are unclear on origin but would wager they know a lot more than the general public.

Not to go on about it but there's also a number of other reports of Government UFO files, sensitive military UFO reports, official UFO footage, gun camera photographs, radar tapes, satellite data, Military pilot transcripts, Control Tower tapes, Naval log books, official UFO meeting minutes, security footage, physical trace evidence samples and official UFO investigation records being withheld, missing, stolen, destroyed or confiscated.

a reply to: karl 12

Only an opinion, but I tend to think the military is fearful of revealing anything that could compromise sources, methods and technological capabilities Even within the military. To keep things under wraps things are highly compartmentalized. With only a few people who really know everything. But that interpretation is not the only one possible.

Something is being covered up and has been for a long time. But I don't know what exactly.

BTW that book "UFOs and Government: A Historical Inquiry" can be hard to read cover to cover. But is a goldmine if used as a reference book.

Terry Hansen also wrote a good book "The Missing Times". I think I've lost my copy but was an interesting read. I might get it on Kindle as it's only a couple of quid.

You two gentlemen talking is like listening to Einstein and Enrico Fermi.
Let’s get Oppenheimer in this, Ophi, and we’d have a really great conversation going. And then Steven Hawking, GUT, and really get down!

Even the spooks would come to and listen!

originally posted by: mirageman

Something is being covered up and has been for a long time. But I don't know what exactly.

Would agree with you about the Military (especially Navy) and I don't know either lol.

originally posted by: mirageman

BTW that book "UFOs and Government: A Historical Inquiry" can be hard to read cover to cover. But is a goldmine if used as a reference book.

A bit pricey these days but definitely a classic mate.. and would also agree with one of its authors that the source documents 'portray a continual strategic manipulation' of the public.

Far too many to choose from but always liked this CIA one citing 'the creation of the correction of public opinion'.

"So many people saw it that many articles appeared in the public press. This is distressing to Dr Jones because he realises that the creation of the correction of public opinion is a part of his responsibilities."

Document - RAF 'flying disc' incident over Yorkshire, England

There's also a number of other very intriguing internal communications from H. Marshall Chadwell (Assistant Director Office Of Scientific Intelligence) and the Dr Jones he's referring to was 'a leading expert in the use of deception' and the MOD's Director of Scientific Intelligence.

Dr Jones also played 'an important behind the scenes role in planning for the Condon Report and Terry goes into more detail here at 41:00.

originally posted by: mirageman

Terry Hansen also wrote a good book "The Missing Times". I think I've lost my copy but was an interesting read. I might get it on Kindle as it's only a couple of quid.

Definitely worth getting your hands on a copy and reckon that presentation from Terry is incredibly relevant nowadays as he basically shows how incredibly widespread CIA recruitment of journalists actually is.

Terry is incredibly relevant nowadays as he basically shows how incredibly widespread CIA recruitment of journalists actually is.

I can think of a fair few personalities in the present day "UFO media" who are likely suspects for such a role.

Although, I also think there's a more subtle approach where these personalities are offered prominent media slots in exchange for promoting a certain angle to a story. It helps build their profile, but inevitably compromises them. They can eventually find themselves making the subject and themselves appear ridiculous.

a reply to: introufo


Kind words there mate and can only speak for myself but I'm just an average Joe - if I can point to other people's research, official unexplained report percentages, authenticated quotes and specific internal Gov documents citing widespread UFO deception towards the general public then where the hell are all the journalists and academics?

Bought and paid for probably.

As for Einstein, looks like he wasn't very interested either (which is a bit weird for an 'objective' scientist) - especially considering the 20% actual unknown rate.

• "These people have seen something - What it is I do not know and am not curious to know."

Albert Einstein, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, New Jersey (reply letter to Californian Minister Louis A. Gardner, July 23rd, 1952).

Newsclipping

a reply to: karl 12

Before I forget I don't know if you saw it or not, but there is some interesting wording in the draft for the next US Defence Bill. It effectively means the US government will legally be able to seize any technology of "unknown origin" and biological material from "non-human intelligence".

SEC. __10. DISCLOSURE OF RECOVERED TECHNOLOGIES OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN AND BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF NON-HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

(a) Exercise of Eminent Domain.--The Federal Government shall exercise eminent domain over any and all recovered technologies of unknown origin and biological evidence of non-human intelligence that may be controlled by private persons or entities in the interests of the public good...


Source

So make sure that piece of Roswell memory metal is well hidden, mate! The Feds will be after you soon

a reply to: karl 12

Just using those men as an analogy for the information and knowledge you gentlemen have on ufology is very extensive and educational.
ATS on UFOlogy has unrivaled what amounts to UFO scholars.

Many others here, too, are exceptionally knowledgeable.

originally posted by: karl 12
a reply to: introufo



As for Einstein, looks like he wasn't very interested either (which is a bit weird for an 'objective' scientist) - especially considering the 20% actual unknown rate.

• "These people have seen something - What it is I do not know and am not curious to know."

Albert Einstein, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, New Jersey (reply letter to Californian Minister Louis A. Gardner, July 23rd, 1952).

Newsclipping

Einstein like all other Physicists was/are probably crapping himself/themselves at the thought that everything they thought they knew was/is wrong and they would all soon be sat in the corner of the class with a dunces cap on

originally posted by: mirageman

I can think of a fair few personalities in the present day "UFO media" who are likely suspects for such a role.

Yes mate apparently it's called 'Non-Official Cover' and I can think of a few as well.

On the flip-side suppose one has to also consider the 'recruitment' of certain 'pop scientists' who consistently pour scorn and derision on the UFO subject - either that or they're utterly clueless about subject matter and the findings of official studies.

Then of course we've also got the CoIntelPro douchebags and loser Gov web goons being trained to think they're 'Batman'.

It's all a pretty sad state of affairs.

originally posted by: mirageman

Before I forget I don't know if you saw it or not, but there is some interesting wording in the draft for the next US Defence Bill. It effectively means the US government will legally be able to seize any technology of "unknown origin" and biological material from "non-human intelligence".

Thanks mate and yes I'd seen it - reckon all this legalese is the real meat and potatoes behind all this UFO theatre and we're going to hear more and more 'eminent domain' being exercised in the future (basically theft).

Also, got to laugh but when has the Federal Government ever done anything 'in the interests of the public good?

• "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."

Milton Friedman

originally posted by: mirageman

So make sure that piece of Roswell memory metal is well hidden, mate!

Busted lol!

It's not from Roswell though.

originally posted by: introufo

Just using those men as an analogy for the information and knowledge you gentlemen have on ufology is very extensive and educational.

ATS on UFOlogy has unrivaled what amounts to UFO scholars.

Many others here, too, are exceptionally knowledgeable.

No worries mate and that's certainly how I read it - there's been some insanely knowledgeable ATS members over the years (as well as famous/infamous ones) and have been rummaging around in the archives quite a bit - some truly great threads made by truly great people.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

Einstein like all other Physicists was/are probably crapping himself/themselves at the thought that everything they thought they knew was/is wrong..

Well mate he did once say 'the most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious' so his willful ignorance about the UFO subject is a bit of a mystery - do reckon he got it spot on about this one though.

Also found it interesting that Albert maintained 'a long-standing and close relationship' with Samuel Goudsmit who was a key member of the CIA Robertson Panel (he was put there by the CIA’ s Director of Scientific Intelligence who wrote this in the same year) - there may be no connection but here's a picture of Einstein with the head of the project.

Howard Percy Robertson (far left)

Pretty rare 1967 'World In Action' documentary on UFOs and the Condon Report.





Arch debunker Donald Menzel (mentor to Klass) pops up around 4:20.

Nobody knew at the time Menzel was secretly working for the NSA and CIA.

a reply to: karl 12

Granada TV and World in Action. There's a blast from the past, Karl. Although this particular show was a bit before my time it's interesting from a historical perspective.

Arch debunker Donald Menzel (mentor to Klass) pops up around 4:20.

Nobody knew at the time Menzel was secretly working for the NSA and CIA.

Unlike other paranormal subjects such as ghost hunting, there's a history of intelligence interest in the UFO community going way back to the 1950s. NICAP even had Fmr. CIA Director Roscoe Hillenkoetter as their chairman.

Even as recent as 2008, the US government's AAWSAP contract was used to procure access to MUFON's database files. Unknown to MUFON under the guise of BAASS. Foreign intel like The KGB and others infiltrated UFO groups as well. More spooks than a haunted house!

originally posted by: mirageman

Granada TV and World in Action. There's a blast from the past, Karl. Although this particular show was a bit before my time it's interesting from a historical perspective.

Ah yes mate some classic old school Granada TV - thought there was some good input from Dr James E. McDonald and quite a refreshingly balanced look at the UFO mystery.. obviously not a CIA production like Cronkite's 'UFO: Friend, Foe Or Fantasy'.


Psychological Warfare, Information Management, and the Day that Walter Cronkite Got Hosed

originally posted by: mirageman

Unlike other paranormal subjects such as ghost hunting, there's a history of intelligence interest in the UFO community going way back to the 1950s.

There surely is, here's what Chadwell had to say about numbers in his internal CIA memo:

• "Since 1947, ATIC has received approximately 1500 official reports of sightings plus an enormous volume of letters, phone calls, and press reports. During July 1952 alone, official reports totaled 250. Of the 1500 reports, Air Force carries 20 percent as unexplained and of those received from January through July 1952 it carries 28 percent unexplained."

H. Marshall Chadwell,
Assistant Director,
Office of Scientific Intelligence (OSI)

Docs

He also reckoned "sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and travelling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomenon or known types of aerial vehicles" so I'm sure the spooks were pretty interested.


Docs


The Washington sightings no doubt played a role and it states in this thread that the CIA, U.S. Government, Project Bluebook, the U.S. Weather Bureau and the Washington radar operators all seemingly rejected the 'temperature inversion' theory which was, in reality, just an off the cuff remark by Captain Roy James.

As for CIA/NSA Menzel mentoring CSICOP's Klass (best mates with Bobby Ray Inman) there are loads of avenues to go down, not to mention their relationships with Condon (Oppenheimer's assistant) and intelligence operative Low.

Would also say the way they treated Dr James E. McDonald after he exposed the CIA's dictation of USAF UFO policy whilst working for the Office of Naval Intelligence was pretty disgraceful.

originally posted by: [post=27089052]mirageman[/post

NICAP even had Fmr. CIA Director Roscoe Hillenkoetter as their chairman.

Yes looks like APRO also experienced a few 'incidents' and really do wonder what happened to all their files - also thought there was some interesting speculation here about NICAP (particularly Nixon and Acuff).

Then of course there's all the USAF counter intel working out of Kirtland..

originally posted by: [post=27089052]mirageman[/post

Even as recent as 2008, the US government's AAWSAP contract was used to procure access to MUFON's database files. Unknown to MUFON under the guise of BAASS.

Ha didn't know that and hats off to your research - those cheeky spooks get everywhere don't they?

As for recent developments don't know if Grusch is being 'handled' by McCullough but considering the rather dubious Italian material he's been promoting whilst his buddies Knapp and Corbell pimp out flare UFO videos (after two years research lol) it doesn't look good.

Randle also mentions the Italian files below and thought the first comment was apt.

The problem for me was his claim that there had been a crash of an alien craft in Italy in 1933. This has been researched by colleagues in Italy including Edordo Russo. who has provided evidence of a hoax. Certainly, nothing revealed about this case could adversely affect national security. Certainly, if Grusch was on the inside as he claims, he would not have been fooled by this hoax.

Link

a reply to: karl 12

Consummate research...and analysis.

One would think it all started with the Robertson panel since among their recommendations was the following:

a. That the national security agencies take immediate steps to strip the Unidentified Flying Objects of the special status they have been given and the aura of mystery they have unfortunately acquired;

I believe that panel, a CIA stooge panel, was merely done to codify legally or give them an excuse for what they already were doing and to jack it up a few notches with the disinformation that clouded ufology with reams of nonsense and a massive cover-up of legitimate ufos, ever since.

I believe it’s still going on though the new and some old ufo enthusiasts are convinced otherwise. And that TTSA and Grusch are ufology saviors.

Though I am certain about the shenanigans of the CIA et al., I never like to be dogmatic. So on the question, is this a legit “ disclosure” attempt, I don’t believe so, but I don’t know for sure, so time will tell. Maybe a long time.

This interview with John Greenewald is rather interesting.

He seems to think they are in possession of et materials, or fragments (recorded before Grusch blew his whistle)
Also his thoughts on Luis Elizondo, and the whole coverup makes a lot of sense imo.

a reply to: introufo

Would agree with everything you've said there mate - would also say TTSA is full blown CIA and Elizondo's story has so many holes it could be a net.

Posted it on another thread but there also appears to be inconsistencies surrounding Grusch's narrative, the UAP Security Classification Guide (link) and DOD DOPSER protocols.




a reply to: kangawoo

Thanks for sharing the vid and thought JGJ made a good point about the reality of a massive UFO coverup.. and the fact that the US Gov loves using 'smokescreens' - the DIA Tehran Docs he mentions can be found here and the routing codes look pretty interesting.

Here's JGJ a few days ago suggesting top agency chiefs should be actively grilled under oath.. as well as the top brass from NORAD, NRO, NSA, DIA, DOE etc. my candidate would be Elizondo's CIA boss Brennan (might be a conflict of interest though as he did get busted spying on, monitoring and hacking U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee members).

Suppose you've also got to factor in all the other behind the scenes players in this six year game and consider money and potential Emergency Powers / Continuity of Government.



THAT UFO NARRATIVE PUSH: COG, MONEY, MARKETING, & OTHER STUFF

originally posted by: introufo

"That the national security agencies take immediate steps to strip the Unidentified Flying Objects of the special status they have been given and the aura of mystery they have unfortunately acquired"

Could be nothing but (considering their backgrounds) it may be relevant as when Menzel and Klass finally wangled their way into Project Bluebook (under the reign of Major Hector Quintanilla) there were some truly ridiculous UFO explanations and pretty nasty character assassination of UFO witnesses.

"During Air Force Major Hector Quintanilla's tenure as Blue Book's director, the flag of the utter nonsense school was flying at its highest on the mast". 

Dr J Allen Hynek, Chief Scientific Consultant for Air Force Investigations of UFOs from 1948 until 1969

Dr Willy Smith describes in his book 'On Pilots and UFOs' how Major Quintanilla's team went back and actually 'substituted' official summary cards for unexplained Bluebook cases 'to reduce the number of unknowns at any cost'


Free Download: "On Pilots and UFOs” by Dr Willy Smith



Apparently (according to Hynek) Quintanilla's assistant Sgt Moody also went back to unknown UFO cases from Captain Gregory's days and way back in Ruppelt's days and 'redid' the Bluebook files and "a lot that were unidentified in those days he 'identified' years and years later".

Doesn't sound very scientific to me lol.

a reply to: karl 12

Would agree with everything you've said there mate - would also say TTSA is full blown CIA and Elizondo's story has so many holes it could be a net.

Posted it on another thread but there also appears to be inconsistencies surrounding Grusch's narrative, the UAP Security Classification Guide (link) and DOD DOPSER protocols.

Thanks for the links; I'll definitely check them out...

I like Greenwald. Though he justifies himself too much IMO. He should just say what he thinks and leave it at that...
Of course, he’s worried about too much backlash over his views.