‘Out of control’ fire aboard a massive car-carrier ship spotlights the calamitous consequences o

originally posted by: JIMC5499
a reply to: gortex

Here's the problem. The majority of cells used in electric cars, bikes, scooters and other things are made in South Korea and Taiwan. Wholesalers buy the cells in huge lots and then sell them to the companies that use them. Some wholesalers buy cheap fake cells from Chinese companies. These cells are mixed in with the others so that the wholesaler makes more profit. It is these cells that create the problems and the fires.

Interesting. Got any source links about that? I'd like to read more.

originally posted by: JIMC5499
As far as the ship is concerned, get the crew off and then torpedo it. That will take care of the fires and will probably do less damage to the environment than trying to fight the fires and save the ship.

Wouldn't the insurance policy for the ship have a clause in it that says something to the effect that if you torpedo your own ship and sink it, the insurance company doesn't have to pay?

a reply to: Mahogany

Russia Russia Russia… lol.

You did not read my post. I am for this technology.

I am against government authoritarianism:
- Mandating all cars to be EV
- Removing gas generators, ETC ETC

I drive back and forth to Florida. A 800-ish mile trip each way. I get 50 mpg and can do it on one well timed pit stop of 10 minutes, though I prefer to stop 2-3 times so I never run low. About 50$ in gas each way. Cheaper and less time than electric. Yet I can run around town on electric and almost never have to fill up as I also have a plug in. Very low operating costs, love my Niro plug in Hybrid.

I lived for a while on my solar power catamaran Sailboat (with Honda gas engine, and a back up gas generator). Built a house entirely off-grid in the Philippines. I enjoy using sun and wind, but having gas reliability. I’m all for people choosing this. I choose it for economics and convenience. Power fails all the time in the Philippines, and they also have planned black-outs. I like having power for my fans 24/7 365.

I am for consumers choosing the technology they want. Against government legislative mandates.

a reply to: CoyoteAngels

the gas vehicles were being operated when they caught fire tho'.

What gas vehicles? All of them? You're just over generalizing and don't know what you talk about.

Im thinking more of hours later sitting alone in the garage after people have gone to bed. And particularly while being charged.

Yes exactly. This has happened countless times when people hooked up their ICE battery charger.


After all is said and done, a lot more ICE cars burn than EV. There is no way to discuss this away. If you now make the claim that EV mostly burn unattended, well, then that's actually a good thing.

Better than sitting inside it, right? This whole discussion is ridiculous. What are we even arguing about, these are all just strawmen and moved goal posts.

Fact is: ICE cars burn 60x (some say 100x) more often than EV. No matter if you like it or not, no matter your personal bias against EV, you're wrong. When any car burns, that is bad. When people get hurt, that's bad.

EV hurt less people % wise. So that is somehow a problem? There are a lot of things wrong with EV but this is not one of it.

a reply to: TDDAgain

Ive witnessed 3 lithium battery fires. They go up like a torch, burn very hot and are difficult to put out.

One was when the battery was in use, one was when it was being charged and one alll by itself sitting quiet.

The one car fire Ive witnessed was ARSON.

You could watch how you talk down to people.

a reply to: pianopraze

It wasn't 25 ......it was 500.

a reply to: CoyoteAngels

Ive witnessed 3 lithium battery fires. They go up like a torch, burn very hot and are difficult to put out.

I witnessed several gasoline car on fires, and now? That lithium fires are dangerous is common knowledge. Gasoline fires are difficult to put out too. Your personal history in observing fires, does not change reality.

You could watch how you talk down to people.

My tone may have come over harsh but be assured to not take it personal. I just don't like it when people don't know what they are talking about and you are doubling down on the things you get wrong.


So again, what were you talking about when your wrote "the gas vehicles were being operated when they caught fire tho'." What gas(oline) vehicles are you talking about? You make it appear that gasoline vehicles only burn when operated, so your argument holds.

IDK what it's worth to you, but I own an engine shop and until beginning of the year, I built engines for race car. Now I work for a major German sports car manufacturer. I've been to races, drove 4h endurance races on the worlds most difficult race track myself, hill climb races. Since over two years I drive an EV daily. I have a master degree in ICE engine design. I probably saw more ICE cars burning for the funkiest reasons than you saw lithium fires.

Fires are always bad, no matter if it's ICE or EV. Are you still trying to establish that EV fires are bad because most of the time nobody is around to get hurt? So nonsensical.

And talking down? I talk from experience and knowledge, if that intimidates you, not my fault.

originally posted by: schuyler
What's all this hand-wringing about EV battery fires? There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles in 2020. Autoweek.

1500 gasoline fires.
25 EV battery fires.
Conclusion?
EVs catch on fire.

Car and Driver article about the AutoinsuranceEZ "study" referenced in your link used to get those figures:
No, Millions of Cars Are Not Catching Fire Every Year: A New York Times story about U.S. car fires references a study that gets the frequency wrong by a factor of at least 60.
I would rate Car and Driver as a reasonable source on this as well, so hopefully nobody is calling them a conspiracy site.

Basically they appear to have simply made up numbers, and multiple sources including your source and the NY Times ran with it (at least NYT ran a correction). Worth a read though as they make a case for concluding fires for all vehicle types was around 0.04 percent using 2013-2017 data. Nothing gleaned about electric or hybrid.

See C & D excerpts below:

You don't have to be a professional statistician to notice that these AutoInsuranceEZ numbers look a wee bit questionable. Because, EVs and hybrids aside, if 1530 conventional internal-combustion cars (aka, "most of the cars") are catching fire per 100,000 vehicles, that would equate to millions of car fires each year—

To try to figure out where these numbers came from, we first contacted the National Transportation Safety Board, purported source for the car-fire statistics. And the NTSB's spokesman told us, "There is no NTSB database that tracks highway vehicle fires. We do not know what data AutoInsuranceEZ used for its research, but it did not come from an NTSB database

They suggested that perhaps the study authors confused the NTSB with NHTSA, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. So we contacted NHTSA. And guess what? NHTSA doesn't collect fire data in this way, either.

We reached out to AutoinsuranceEZ (which appears to be a lead generator for car insurance companies), and we'll let you know if they ever get back to us,

originally posted by: schuyler

1500 gasoline fires.
25 EV battery fires.
Conclusion?
EVs catch on fire.

Batteries that are charging need to be monitored, period, and they are not. In the professional world dealing with these types of batteries, they are not left in the charging mode without someone physically there the whole time. In the private world who knows what is going on? I have seen maybe 5 cars catch fire in my life, but I have seen maybe 10 batteries that would go China syndrome in the last 5 years if they were not being monitored.

In this case, I don't see the EV cars are the reason for the fire. It doesn't make sense as they would not be on charge and just sitting there as new batteries. I don't think it was even a car thing at all.

a reply to: Xtrozero

A first responder in a transcript said 'the fire started in the battery of an ev car...'

And there are 500 ev batteries on that ship.

a reply to: chiefsmom
Happens to the best of us. I myself dislike how EV is mandated, how ICE must die and the charade around how it is "greener" when it clearly isn't.

My heart will always beat faster for any ICE than most EVs. I am a fuel head. Nonetheless I manage it to not be biased and see how both technologies have their reasons for existing.

Hybrids are nonsensical. Since around 2003-2004 the internal combustion engine reached it's peak efficiency. There's not much what we can do to change that, even material science won't bring us much further with ICE. Since then, the manufacturers keep adding and removing bolt on's like supporting electric motors. Adding weight and costs everywhere down the fabrication line and back up through service.

And now comes the big "but". Had they not done it, the electric motors would not be as far in development as they are currently. The whole shenangians about the EV is just the battery. We need to built these abortions now to have the quirks figured out, when there is potential energy source that does not need a big buffer like a battery.

People often say EV didn't make it for the last 100 years, there are reasons for that and if we never start pushing the boundaries, we never know what will be possible. EV is pushing such boundaries on battery tech currently.

I can talk about it officially now since the decision was made yesterday and the trailers are out. The next iteration of EV's will charge in under 8 minutes, will not use lithium in the margins current EVs do. I hinted on this over half a year ago.

I guess this will drown out in the "EV bad" screams, too.

a reply to: TDDAgain

Its clear you don't like it when someone has an opinion different from your own, educated or not. That much is obvious.

One would think that racing conditions are not the average operating conditions or fuel as consumer vehicles.

a reply to: CoyoteAngels

Its clear you don't like it when someone has an opinion different from your own, educated or not. That much is obvious.

I embrace it, as long as it is founded it reality. I just had too much rounds with people like you that have no idea what they are talking about. Go inform yourself please. You can have your opinion, it's still wrong.

One would think that racing conditions are not the average operating conditions or fuel as consumer vehicles.

Yes, indeed. And still more ICE powered cars burn than EV by %.

Any questions left?

a reply to: TDDAgain

There you go, talking down.

Sure, we have different life experiences. You could say, hey, I work with engines....and here is what I think. That comes across soooo much more respectfully than 'you don't know what you talk about'. That is attitude.

All I'm saying. Take it as you like. But please keep it in mind when you address me.

originally posted by: TDDAgain


So again, what were you talking about when your wrote "the gas vehicles were being operated when they caught fire tho'." What gas(oline) vehicles are you talking about? You make it appear that gasoline vehicles only burn when operated, so your argument holds.

This is interesting...

University of Tennessee Study: Electric car fires are more common than those in gasoline cars.

“The study found that electric car fires occur in 3 out of every 1,000 starts, while internal combustion car fires occur in 1 out of every 10,000 starts.

Electric cars are generally considered to be safer than gas cars, as they do not produce emissions that can endanger people. However, this study states that electric car fires are more common than previously thought.”

University of California-Irvine Study: “Electric car fires are responsible for approximately one-third of all car fires in the United States.”

They also show this in the article and I think it is something along these lines people use to prove their points incorrectly. They don't look at billions of gas cars made compared to a few million EV.


Car Fires By Vehicle Type 2020– USA
Fuel Type Total Fires
1. Internal Combustion 199,533
2. Hybrid (Partially Electric) 16,051
3. Battery Electric 52

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

A first responder in a transcript said 'the fire started in the battery of an ev car...'

And there are 500 ev batteries on that ship.

Well, 500 is a lot more than 25...lol It would be interesting if they had the vehicles, or some, charging too since they would need to have some power to move the cars where the gas cars could have 2 gallons.

a reply to: CoyoteAngels

Because you don't know what to talk about. Plain and simple. To explain my attitude, I have to point out yours:

You're not in the position to know and clearly you don't do anything to change it. All you now do is complaining how harsh I am to you, but theres a reason. Many people just don't like it when someone who is wrong, keeps doubling down. And I dislike the wrong information, not the one the puts it out. Unless the one is doubling down, what makes it intentional to me, I equate that almost to lying.

That's all there is to it. It's nothing personal. There may in future be a thread where you clearly have the knowledge and it's me that told bull# to the world. But the one thing I won't do is sit there and try to do semantics. I would say "# yes, I was wrong". Because we're not alone here, other people read your and my posts year down the line.

Your ignorance on the topic feeds the damage.

originally posted by: TDDAgain

I can talk about it officially now since the decision was made yesterday and the trailers are out. The next iteration of EV's will charge in under 8 minutes, will not use lithium in the margins current EVs do. I hinted on this over half a year ago.

I guess this will drown out in the "EV bad" screams, too.

In what direction are hydrogen fuel cells coming along with cars? We are starting to see them in drones. 8 min charge time and I'm sold...

a reply to: TDDAgain

I refer you, kindly, to the post just above yours. Seems you might not know what YOU talk about.

a reply to: Xtrozero

They would be charged or had petrol put in before driving on to the ship, surely?

a reply to: Xtrozero
Yes one has to be careful what the numbers are about. As long as it is expressed in %, they still represent a good tool to get a bigger picture.

www.autoinsuranceez.com...

Hybrid cars are 1st, ICE 2nd and pure EV is 3rd.

Out of the three types, the pure EV, what we are talking about is the most safe when it comes to fires. Most fires in gasoline cars were due to electrical problems. Another good hint is the amount of recalls because of fire issues. Gasoline beats that by several factors.

EV are new, with currently questionable battery tech, the should be scrutinized. But not in the way most do.