India to acquire 400 more T-90 tanks from Russia

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by mirza2003
China is like USA is not trustworty but we have to live togather only for politics
we never forget 1962 and Chinas support to Pakistan

I'd treasure the partnership for now. It could lead to really great things...

Highly unlikely, their interests overlap too much. As was stated before China illegally invaded Indian territory and still holds it today ie. The Aksai Chin. Not to mention that China is suspected of providing support to the ongoing insurgency in India's eastern provinces.

I must add this note to all ATS members wary of indo-china CBMs..
In a recent poll taken after wen jibao's visit, 56 % of the indian public(online) chose china as a better option to improve ties with, as compared to 44% for the US..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
I must add this note to all ATS members wary of indo-china CBMs..
In a recent poll taken after wen jibao's visit, 56 % of the indian public(online) chose china as a better option to improve ties with, as compared to 44% for the US..

those online are how many has knowlege of indo-china relation?

any link!
where is the poll done which website?

i don't know the link but it was a TOI online poll..
I think it was in the last couple of days only..

hi frnds,
This is with refrence to the thread.The combined forces of China & India can't even shoo Great Britain off. Lets talk some sense. Both the countries are trying to mordernise. Although India has an advantage of buying arms from countries other that Russia. The options with the Chinese are restricted to France,Isreal & Sweden or S/A besides Russia.Today I rate the Indian Army and the Chinese Army on par with Soviet Union when it fought the Afghan war. The Miliatary hardware on both the side need serious upgrade which they are doing.They have to inflict newer technologies. Except the LCA's & ALH nothing is worth even a match for the F-16,F-15 & F-18's which are 2 & 1/2 decade old technology.Even the three decade old F-14's are better with advanced avionics.

Originally posted by ajju
hi frnds,
This is with refrence to the thread.The combined forces of China & India can't even shoo Great Britain off. Lets talk some sense. Both the countries are trying to mordernise. Although India has an advantage of buying arms from countries other that Russia. The options with the Chinese are restricted to France,Isreal & Sweden or S/A besides Russia.Today I rate the Indian Army and the Chinese Army on par with Soviet Union when it fought the Afghan war. The Miliatary hardware on both the side need serious upgrade which they are doing.They have to inflict newer technologies. Except the LCA's & ALH nothing is worth even a match for the F-16,F-15 & F-18's which are 2 & 1/2 decade old technology.Even the three decade old F-14's are better with advanced avionics.

You can't rate a airforce of a country that been indepedant only for half a century or so only on the basis of its indigenous products..
The Mirage 2000 and Su30MKI are more than a match for F-16/F-14/F-1 and probably equivalent to the F-15...
The LCA isn't meant to be at par with these aircraft..
Its a substitute for the MiG 21 and its an amazing plane...
I don't know much about its comparision to the F-14.. but Im sure someone will have the data on that..

And about your India-china and britain statement..ummm I definitely disagree!!

Originally posted by skippytjc
Mmmmm....I wonder how much food the public of India could have with $1 billion dollars? One of the worlds poorest nations. But lets send that money to another country instead for weapons.

Hmm... how about probably not that much as India grows more than enough to feed its people, dumbass. India is a net exporter of foodstuffs since the 70s. It has among the lowest defense expendiatures (as %age of GDP) of any major nation on the planet, and has been a victim of 5 wars of territorial aggression in the last 50 years. Lecture a country that needs it


COWlan COWlan COWlan. How many times are we going to hvae to repeat this discussion. It always follows the same pattern: you making boisterous claims, me refuting them, you melting away never to reply to the thread again... and one month later you posting the exact same claims. I should start cut-and-pasting my replies to you since your arguments are so damn predictable.

1. Arjun is not used in the same role as the T-90s. The Arjun is a more powerful tank that with a better FCS, rifle and armor than the T-90, and superior mobility. It is used in the role of spearhead in the Indian armour doctrine. The T-90 is a frontline support tank. There is no impetus for the IA to induct more Arjuns at this time, because there is no need, especially in the respect that the money can be better spent elsewhere (arty, infantry modernization).

The Arjun was developed against a threat that never materialized: i.e. reports that the PA would induct the Abrams in the early 90s. Now, the most advanced tanks the PA will have are surpassed in weapons and capabilities by India's T-72 upg.

2. LCA, I ain't even going to deign to respond to that. There is an LCA thread that you're still scared to post in, as your claims have been trashed several times over there. I invite you over there to post your claims so I can soundly trash them again for public record. LCA Thread

3. India doesn't spend 2% GDP on defense, but 4%. The defense expendiature increases were a direct proportion increase to India's economic growth.

-Raj






[edit on 14-4-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Originally posted by skippytjc
Mmmmm....I wonder how much food the public of India could have with $1 billion dollars? One of the worlds poorest nations. But lets send that money to another country instead for weapons.

Hmm... how about probably not that much as India grows more than enough to feed its people, dumbass. India is a net exporter of foodstuffs since the 70s. It has among the lowest defense expendiatures (as %age of GDP) of any major nation on the planet, and has been a victim of 5 wars of territorial aggression in the last 50 years. Lecture a country that needs it

COWlan COWlan COWlan. How many times are we going to hvae to repeat this discussion. It always follows the same pattern: you making boisterous claims, me refuting them, you melting away never to reply to the thread again... and one month later you posting the exact same claims. I should start cut-and-pasting my replies to you since your arguments are so damn predictable.

1. Arjun is not used in the same role as the T-90s. The Arjun is a more powerful tank that with a better FCS, rifle and armor than the T-90, and superior mobility. It is used in the role of spearhead in the Indian armour doctrine. The T-90 is a frontline support tank. There is no impetus for the IA to induct more Arjuns at this time, because there is no need, especially in the respect that the money can be better spent elsewhere (arty, infantry modernization).

The Arjun was developed against a threat that never materialized: i.e. reports that the PA would induct the Abrams in the early 90s. Now, the most advanced tanks the PA will have are surpassed in weapons and capabilities by India's T-72 upg.

2. LCA, I ain't even going to deign to respond to that. There is an LCA thread that you're still scared to post in, as your claims have been trashed several times over there. I invite you over there to post your claims so I can soundly trash them again for public record. LCA Thread

3. India doesn't spend 2% GDP on defense, but 4%. The defense expendiature increases were a direct proportion increase to India's economic growth.

-Raj

[edit on 14-4-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

good rajkhalsa they really deserve fiting resp.

i am also khalsa

Hi

Naah. Cowland likes getting smacked around in an argument. I mean, its happened so many times before. I feel I'm actually doing him a favor... ain't that right cowman?

Anyway, some post I missed:
Originally posted by longbow
I really don't understand why are they not building their tanks in India. Such a large country... It's not that difficult like modern aircrafts, for example.

Well, India does produce every tank, apc, vehicle it has in its military. The original T-90 deal is for the delivery of a hundred some with license production for up to a thousand more. The reason for this additional four hundred from russia (probably in kits to be actually assembled in India) is because of India's new armor doctrine and changes in requirements. It's realized that India doesn't need to go all out with Arjun, T-90 induction, as upgrading of T-72s is more than adaquate. Indian production lines have their hands full now with T-72 upgrade, so the decision has been made to not retool the assembly lines yet for T-90 production. The money can then go to where its needed.



Stealth Spy, Mirza,

The engine/weight problems to the Arjun have been fixed. The Mk.1 Arjun in operationable service in regiment plus size is a testament to this. Even with it being a heavier tank with more powerful armor, it has a (if I may borrow from areonautical term, as I forget the armor) power-to-weight ratio, and more manoverability than the T-90.

Cheers,
Raj

[edit on 14-4-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

More Information on the Arjun:

Specifications
The Arjun is a 120mm armed tank designed in synch with western design practices—having a crew of four, heavy composite armour, significant crew protection features—such as blow off panels and ammunition separated from the crew. It weighs in at 58.5 tons. Hence it is being inducted slowly by the Indian Army, whose logistics are attuned to lighter 40 ton class tanks such as the T-72M1. The T-72 forms the bedrock of the Indian Army and is being modernised in stages to present day standards, with Arjun technology spinoffs and features such as Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA), new fire control system, thermal imagers, better NBC protection, integrated fire protection system, etc.

The Arjun has a modern Fire Control System, stabilised in two axes, with an extremely high hit probability made by BEL India and designed by DRDO and BEL. It replaced an earlier system which was plagued with problems. Its combined with a day sight and an imported Thermal imager. The Thermal Imager is a 2nd generation unit and is reportedly from Israel's El-op. The commander has his own stabilised panoramic sight and can engage targets or hand them over to the gunner.

The Arjun incorporates a GPS-based navigation system, sophisticated frequency hopping radios and a state of the art Battle Field Management system—part of an ambitious Indian plan to network all their fighting units. All these systems were designed and developed by DRDO and BEL and are being manufactured by Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL).

The 120mm gun is a rifled one of Indian design and fires long rod FSAPDS Kinetic Energy rounds, High explosive squash head—HESH rounds and the Israeli semiactive laser guided LAHAT missile. There are two machine guns—one coaxial with the 120mm, another a 12.7mm intended for anti-aircraft use and engaging infantry.

The Arjun also has Laser Warning receivers and uses them in conjunction with smoke launchers.

The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" (gold) composite armour—tested and proven against all Antitank rounds the Indian Army expects to face in the future battlefield.

The turret is designed keeping the anthropemetrical data of Indian troops in mind. And has crew protection features—it keeps the ammunition separated from the crew. The Arjun also features Indian designed fire detection and suppression systems plus full NBC protection for the crew of four: Gunner, Commander, Loader and Driver.

The engine and transmission are provided by MTU and Renk respectively. The Engine is 1400 hp and integrated with an Indian turbocharger and gearbox. A local transmission is under trials and will ultimately replace the Renk supplied unit. The cooling pack has been designed for desert operations.

Despite its weight, the Arjun has a lower ground pressure than the T-72 and this aids it in the desert.

Similarly the tracks were being supplied by Diehl but are to be now made by an Indian engineering major, L&T Lmtd.

The similarity in looks between the Arjun and the Leopard 2A4 thanks to the design consultancy given by Krauss Maffei, and the involvement of German firms in the project has led some to dub the Arjun as Leopard-I, where I stands for India.

But over the years, the constant revisions and design changes have placed Arjun in its own slot. And therein lies the problem, despite its technical sophistication, the Arjun is deemed too expensive and "different", in terms of weight and logistics, for the Indian Army to adopt as its standard, bread and butter Main Battle Tank. Hence India is all set to manufacture 1000 T-90S tanks licensed from Russia, after importing and license assembling another 310.

In the meanwhile the Indian Army has ordered 124 Arjuns and is gearing to group them in a dedicated unit along with the prior prototypes and test tanks, all of which are now deemed operational. The first 15 tanks out of the 124 have been produced already. And the Indian Army recently (2004-08-07) inducted the first five tanks of the remaining 109.

The planned production rate being 30 tanks per year, but the Army wishes for it to be 50 per year.

In time, as the Arjuns get inducted, it is feasible that the Indian Army may order more.

Over the years the Arjun has surmounted many hurdles: it was redesigned from being a 40-ton tank armed with a 105mm gun to todays 58.5 ton behemoth. It has had engine and FCS issues, which were overcome.

But in the process, India has acquired its own armaments complex and the ability to make modern state of the art armoured vehicles.

The Arjun might be converted into a 155 mm self-propelled howitzer by fitting the South African T6 turret which has the G5 howitzer fitted.

I think this is quite impressive, being able to move at 70km/h at 55 tons. It is currently using a imported German 1,400 HP diesel engine. Very mobile, considering that a M1A2 uses a 1,500 HP gas engine while only being able to go up to 50km/h.

You know Raj, not everyone has 20 hours per day that they can spend on the internet. I personally am a very busy person, lecture, lecture and more lecture and there are a few forums that I participate in and it some times take 2 hours just to glance through them.

Arjun is a failure because it doesn't use enough Indian parts, at least the major parts. The engine according to some other Indian on WAFF costs more than a T-90S although I'm sure its not THAT much but it is expensive. It uses Israeli ATGMs. Russian MGs if I remember right. According to Globalsecurity it states its unreliability

"The Summer trials carried out in April 1997 on PPS-15, reference tank for bulk production indicated that though there was improvement from the previous years, it was still below the acceptable standards. The major deficiencies pointed out in the summer trials of 1996 i.e. accuracy of gun at battle ranges, mission reliability, lethality of ammunition, containerisation of ammunition bin, emergency traverse etc. continue to persist and were yet to be solved. The Army accordingly indicated in July 1997 that in its present form, the overall reliability of MBT Arjun was far from satisfactory. The Army further indicated that periodic failures of equipment and subsystems tend to reduce the confidence level of troops. The Army also observed that the aspect of armour protection had not been tried out.Army recommended in June 1997 that Limited Series Production should commence only after all the observations and shortcomings noticed were rectified and shown to them.

As of mid-1997 the list of faults after 20 years of development was not encouraging. In addition to numerous technical modifications to its fire and gun control systems, the fire control system in particular has been found unable to perform in temperatures above 42 degrees Celsius (108° F). The DRDO has been considering scrapping the current Arjun fire control system in favor of whatever is accepted for the T-72M1 upgrade program. Defects noticed during the user trials of the Arjun Mk.1 MBT, including over-heating of the engine in Rajasthan desert areas, had supposedly been “by and large overcome” while other complaints were being addressed"

Arjuns costs are at 5.6 million per tank. EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Compared to M1A1s which are 4.3 million per tank.

No one is saying Arjun is a bad tank but it doesn't fit the need for the current time, cost and weight requirement.

If Arjun was so much a success then why did the army only order 124 of them to be supplised in 30 per year and ordering 400 more T-90S to a max total of 1000 T-90S in the future.

I think this is quite impressive, being able to move at 70km/h at 55 tons. It is currently using a imported German 1,400 HP diesel engine. Very mobile, considering that a M1A2 uses a 1,500 HP gas engine while only being able to go up to 50km/h.

How fast does it move off road?
Technology, Crew, and support, are what counts not track speed.
P.S. the Abrams is 65Tones.

Originally posted by COWlan
You know Raj, not everyone has 20 hours per day that they can spend on the internet. I personally am a very busy person, lecture, lecture and more lecture and there are a few forums that I participate in and it some times take 2 hours just to glance through them.

Arjun is a failure because it doesn't use enough Indian parts, at least the major parts. The engine according to some other Indian on WAFF costs more than a T-90S although I'm sure its not THAT much but it is expensive. It uses Israeli ATGMs. Russian MGs if I remember right. According to Globalsecurity it states its unreliability

"The Summer trials carried out in April 1997 on PPS-15, reference tank for bulk production indicated that though there was improvement from the previous years, it was still below the acceptable standards. The major deficiencies pointed out in the summer trials of 1996 i.e. accuracy of gun at battle ranges, mission reliability, lethality of ammunition, containerisation of ammunition bin, emergency traverse etc. continue to persist and were yet to be solved. The Army accordingly indicated in July 1997 that in its present form, the overall reliability of MBT Arjun was far from satisfactory. The Army further indicated that periodic failures of equipment and subsystems tend to reduce the confidence level of troops. The Army also observed that the aspect of armour protection had not been tried out.Army recommended in June 1997 that Limited Series Production should commence only after all the observations and shortcomings noticed were rectified and shown to them.

As of mid-1997 the list of faults after 20 years of development was not encouraging. In addition to numerous technical modifications to its fire and gun control systems, the fire control system in particular has been found unable to perform in temperatures above 42 degrees Celsius (108° F). The DRDO has been considering scrapping the current Arjun fire control system in favor of whatever is accepted for the T-72M1 upgrade program. Defects noticed during the user trials of the Arjun Mk.1 MBT, including over-heating of the engine in Rajasthan desert areas, had supposedly been “by and large overcome” while other complaints were being addressed"

Arjuns costs are at 5.6 million per tank. EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Compared to M1A1s which are 4.3 million per tank.

No one is saying Arjun is a bad tank but it doesn't fit the need for the current time, cost and weight requirement.

If Arjun was so much a success then why did the army only order 124 of them to be supplised in 30 per year and ordering 400 more T-90S to a max total of 1000 T-90S in the future.

i can understand you like pakdefancesite poster who again again posting same old stuff based on late 90s story grow up it is now 2005 not 1997

every problam is fixed in arjun.
nobody say it is bad tank.only pakis and chines is saying it is bad like you

their many people who not sit on net for hours but they dont post old facts which 6-8 years old

about arjuns gun syst. it is mated with t-72 base. spinoff is new MBT Karna so i can you told arjun gun is not going to replaced.

as raj told new doctrine is favor the t-90 that why india buying it.

arjun is long race horse will here to stay.

as news come in that army witdrawn its vijanta [800 tanks]
so there is chance india could order more arjun mk II n comeing time.

coward sorry cowlan better prepare your post with current events not with old one spamer cowlan

You know what? Stop flaming him and give me some data on those issues being solved. And remember, it owes its mobility to the GERMAN engine. Put simply, it is more of putting stuff together from others instead of designing a new tank.

You know Raj, not everyone has 20 hours per day that they can spend on the internet. I personally am a very busy person, lecture, lecture and more lecture and there are a few forums that I participate in and it some times take 2 hours just to glance through them.

You know Cowlan, I visit this site probably once a week, and before yesterday, haven't done so for almost a month. However, that is completely irrelevant to owning up to your posts. You obviously have enough time to post new posts, new threads, so please spare us this pathetic cop out.

Every time I've been shown to be wrong by other posters, and I have, a lot, like a man I own up to it and thank the other posters for teaching me something, because that's why I'm here, to learn other points of view and news. However, if all you're concerned about is some blind nationalistic trip, then, hey, more power to you, but don't expect me or anyone else to show you respect or not call you out for what you are.

Take a look at W4rl0rD, he's Chinese, and I respect him as a poster even though we have differing opinions (and had gotten off to a rocky start), because his goal isn't jingoistic flag waving, either.

But, to the good stuff..


Arjun is a failure because it doesn't use enough Indian parts, at least the major parts. The engine according to some other Indian on WAFF costs more than a T-90S although I'm sure its not THAT much but it is expensive. It uses Israeli ATGMs. Russian MGs if I remember right. According to Globalsecurity it states its unreliability

That's an odd definition of failure. You should submit it to Webster.

If I may lecture, and address your points thru it:

As I said before, the Arjun was first brainstormed in the 80s to address Pakistan's planned aquisition of a Western heavy, which outclassed every Indian tank at the time, and at the time, didn't have a Russian counter. The M1A1 sale was openly talked about by US offiicals and came at the time where America poured billions in weapons for Pakistan, including high-profile a/c like F-16s. The Indians had T-55s, Vijayantas and old-model T-72s in service at that time.

The Arjun project was concieved as a Western-style tank that would counter any Pak tank, but, because of reliabilitiy problems from Soviet equipement, and to jump start India's own military-industrial complex, the Arjun was to be built in-house. Though it had a 20-year development cycle, the requirements were changed almost yearly, and the DRDO was continually scrambling to change the specs of the tank.

As I also said before, the Abrams never came, and the Paks relied on knocked down Chinese tank designs. When India's economy started its boom, and due to the events like 9-11, etc. the Indian army unveiled a new doctrine called "Cold Start", which did away with the concepts of striking and holding corps, and restructured the Indian army for mobile, hard-hitting strike units. This tri-force integrated doctrine influenced defense aquisition in a big way, and was one of the main reason the Arjun was limited to 2 rgmts.


The Arjun is an expensive, but powerful tank. It is a unique build that doesn't have much commonality with the rest of India's Russian-derived armor. It requires significant additions to the IA's logisitics that, along with its price, makes it a very heavy investment.

With Indian advances in technology, and the tech stagnation of Pakistans armored divisions completely rewrote the equation. India's "Project Rhino" T-72 upgrades more than countered Pak's fleet and aquisitions, and the T-90Ss, intially a stopgap measure due to initital Arjun delays, because they didn't require major changes in logisitcs, and because they were a bit cheaper (though inferior, but still top-of-the-line), were inducted in large scale.

The Cold Start doctrine and the fencing of the border and other changes in the geopolitical postition and doctrine made for the Arjun Mk.1 to be inducted as only 2 rgmts, and the cost-savings from not having a full Arjun induction translated into big improvements in India's C3I, and modernization infantry programs and aquisition of things like arty, rockets, etc.


Furthermore, you state that because Arjun does not have 100% major components as Indian, its a failure? While ot uses a German engine in the Mk.1, well, the engine is still under development. Failure? If the Arjun can fire an Israeli origin ATGM, its a failure? Especially when the whole of the rest of the weapons system, FCS, etc. are Indian? Dude, the M1A2 uses a German rifle!

And dude, if you're doing your research from Globalsecurity, no wonder you're so confused. Their Arjun page hasn't been updated in over half a decade!

Let me give you the heads up on one of the best (and most up to date) resources on the Arjun. Autocar India magazine, India's most respected automobile magazine, did an independant review of it as its cover story. It is considered a groud-breaking article, straight from the horse's mouth, with independant-verification. It's considered a canon source document for defense researchers.

A PDF of the article is available at:
s90370077.onlinehome.us...

I suggest you, and any other Indian defense watchers first read that, rather than some website. Indian guys, save and make note of it. Note in particular what the exactly foreign components are and the tank specs are in this millenium, and y'all won't make comments like "putting stuff together from others instead of designing a new tank"

I won't debunk outdated claims.


In short, the decision was not to go with more Mk.1 versions because the money could better be spent elsewhere. An exact analogy can be made to America's F-22 program. Initially, it was designed to replace the whole swath of America's fighters. However, program delays from changes in req's, cost overruns cut the F-22 order down by over half. Instead, America's upgrading its F-16s, F-15s to extremely powerful new-block versions that, while not F-22 capability and cost, are easily more than enough for the current needs. In the Indian context, replace F-22 with Arjun, and the others with Russia's T-series.

Does this mean the F-22 is a failure? Does a delay in Arjun induction until the Mk.2 build mean failure for the Arjun? Absolutely not, when taken into account money and doctrine. If India (or America) were awash with money, the whole of India's armored strike would be Arjuns (and the whole of the USAF fighters would be F-22s.) That aside, even with the expense, it is a very powerful tank and bang-for-the-buck, (offering comparable, if inferior capabilities to the Abrams, Leopard, but at half the cost -- even with the German engine.) Furthermore, Arjun spinoff-technologies make up the majority of the T-72 Rhino upgrade, as well as in the T-90 and a myriad of other vehicles. It also literally developed the entire Indian armored vehicle industry from scratch -- no small accomplishment!

When defense outlays and/or changing requirements require additional Arjuns in the future, they will be inducted in the Mk.2 version (ugpraded FCS, Indian engine, etc.) Till now, no use, but hardly a failure. As the saying I'll invent goes... why have a fleet-full of MKIs when MiG-21 Bisons are all you need?

Forgive the typos, posting in a rush

- Raj

above post is good reply to all to all critcs
good hold khalsa.

I'll summarise Raj's posts in a paragraph.


There are no real threats to the upgraded T-72s used by the Indian army from the Pakistani army. The T-72 is highly mobile, has a hard hitting gun but not really good armor, but the upgrades add to that weak spot. Like the F-22, why use a state of the art fighter when all you are going to shoot down are MiG-21s? An upgraded T-72 should easily knock out a Pakistani bought Chinese Type 59, no need for the heavier Arjuns.

Pretty much

I'll give you that the Arjun wasnt a resounding success, as it was delayed, etc. but no 1st generation tank type is. But it's hardly the failure its made out to be

[edit on 15-4-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Pretty much

I'll give you that the Arjun wasnt a resounding success, as it was delayed, etc. but no 1st generation tank type is. But it's hardly the failure its made out to be

[edit on 15-4-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

Why didin't u just write what Warlord did?

It could've saved me heaps of reading.

Comprehensive ignorance desrves a comprehensive response