Georgia GOP chairman says he was just following orders from Trump lawyers

originally posted by: JohnTitorSociety
Advice of counsel, depending on the type of case and mens rea, is sometimes an affirmative defense and sometimes a fact used to demonstrate the defendant did not possess the requisite mens rea

Advice from one's own counsel, sure; not somebody else's. He claims to have taken advice from Trump's legal team, not his own lawyer. This situation would be like some low-level mobster claiming innocence because his mob boss's lawyer said it was legal to commit some crime.

Unless someone can point to a specific case, no one has been convicted of engaging in a coup against the USG.

A coup attempt would certainly satisfy the elements of a charge of seditious conspiracy, but that is not what the government argued and not the version that people were convicted of, to wit:

“If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.”

The relevant elements to the actual convictions: “oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof”

This version of seditious conspiracy is what some individuals have been convicted of, rather than a “coup, conspiracy to overthrow, put down… levy war” etc.

Link: www.law.cornell.edu...

a reply to: MrInquisitive

originally posted by: UKTruth
America today.
Rig elections.
Prosecute anyone who asks questions about or challenges said rigged elections.

Seems like a lovely country if you like North Korea.

No, they're prosecuting folk who tried to commit voter fraud by the candidate asking the Sec. of State, in an infamous phone call, to come up with 10,800+ votes more for him, in order to overturn the election, and for a false slate of unduly elected and uncertified electors to be sent to be counted when the legitimate electors had already been certified.

And you're claiming the election was rigged without any evidence, and with legal challenges to said election found to have no merit in several courts of law. No one has been prosecuted for questioning or challenging the election; rather some people are likely to be prosecuted for attempted voter fraud and for attempting to submit a false slate of electors. Two entirely different things.

a reply to: MrInquisitive

It is not a requirement for the mens rea version, that the advice of counsel be from your personal attorney, it is merely a question of fact as to whether the individual possessed the necessary mens rea (willful, intentional, etc.), if the defendant believed the advice of the White House or campaign lawyers was true and accurate, then the defendant did not commit a willful, intentional or fraudulent act.

Note his attorneys are arguing the mens rea version of advice of counsel, not the affirmative defense version.

I shortened my original post , as this pretty much sums it up .
The day that one cannot express dissent or cast there vote (be it voter or electorate) is the day that the US becomes just another shi__hole 3rd world country .
And it appears that day is growing nigh .

a reply to: MrInquisitive

And you're claiming the election was rigged without any evidence

Here , in the US , it is perfectly OK to voice dissent .

a reply to: Mahogany

There is nothing more un-American than a coup attempt.

Democratic presidential electors revolt against Trump

At least a half-dozen Democratic electors have signed onto an attempt to block Donald Trump from winning an Electoral College majority, an effort designed not only to deny Trump the presidency but also to undermine the legitimacy of the institution.

The presidential electors, mostly former Bernie Sanders supporters who hail from Washington state and Colorado, are now lobbying their Republican counterparts in other states to reject their oaths — and in some cases, state law — to vote against Trump when the Electoral College meets on Dec. 19.

a reply to: MrInquisitive

I don't think the mail ballots were ever fully signature audited were they?

Or the authenticity of the Ballots themselves (aka counterfeit) 😁

Also looks like it's more possible than ever that some Trump Attorneys may have been threatened, blackmailed, and paid off 😬

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: MrInquisitive

And you're claiming the election was rigged without any evidence

Here , in the US , it is perfectly OK to voice dissent .

You don't say... Here, in the US, and just about everywhere else, though, if you want thinking people to believe you, you need to provide some evidence of your claims. The point that I was making in the post, which you only quoted one sentence out of context, is that contrary to the claims of the person I was responding to, nobody is being prosecuted for questioning or challenging the results of the election, but rather for committing specific criminal acts, and that the poster's insinuation that the election was rigged is an unfounded accusation. Sure, one can make that claim, but back it up with some substantiated facts if you want people besides like-minded sheeple to buy what your saying.

Your cherry picking my one sentence to quote and responding to that makes it sound like I told the previous poster "nuh-uh, you can't say that", which I certainly didn't do.

Kemp and Raffensperber are dirty. Took a large kickback from Dominion. Perhaps GA gop leaders are too.

a reply to: MrInquisitive
If you knew US Civics , you would not have to ask .
I don't "cherry pick" , it's just the rest of your post was fluff .
Your turn .

originally posted by: MrInquisitive

originally posted by: Lumenari
a reply to: Mahogany

So he was following a legal team's advice.

That I guess is only a criminal act if it somehow involves The Orange Man.

And BTW, if you had taken the time to research the elections in Georgia, they were certainly shady.

Unless you are just another brown shirt cheering on the collapse of America.

Which, BTW, is still not a Democracy.

So taking advice from someone else's legal team -- in particular a legal team and client who are making all kinds of outrageous claims that were shot down over 60 times in different courts -- is exculpating? It's best to hire one's own legal counsel, particularly for such a drastic action, and surely the chairman of the Georgia GOP knows as much. He just got caught committing an overt crime, is having to to face the music, and is trying to squirm out of it in any way he can.

The Georgia elections were shady? Why exactly? Because urban areas, i.e. places with lots of Democrats, voted in high numbers for Democrats? Wasn't the Secretary of State, the person that oversees elections, a Republican? And are you saying that Trump's call to the secretary of state wasn't ultra-shady? You know, the one in which he asked the Sec. of State to find just enough votes to overturn the election there for him, and threatened the Sec. of State if he didn't do so? Perhaps you ought to do a little more research on the subject, mm-kay? And if the presidential election was shady, why weren't all the other elections shady as well? In other words, why wasn't the Georgia GOP claiming all the down-ticket elections were rigged as well? Oh yeah, because Republicans won them. Elections are only shady to Republicans when the opposition wins. Funny that.

And oh, the irony of your calling people who disagree with you and Trump brown shirts! Did you see the torch-wielding white supremacists at the Charlottesville, VA Unite The Right Rally in 2017, or any of the recent rightwing goon squads in their uniforms and hooded faces, with some armed, protesting libraries and LGBTQ events? Yeah, anyone disagreeing with you and your tribe are cheering on the collapse of America. Puh-leeze! Ad hominem much? You do realize that using said rhetorical device just shows that you have no better argument for your position other than calling your opponent(s) names? Go ahead and call me a name to help make my point for me.

You are right about one thing, however: the US has never been a democracy; it is a democratic republic. Perhaps if you ever had paid attention to the pledge of allegiance, you would be aware of that -- you know, that "...and to the republic for which it stands" thingy...

I suggest you read up on Georgia's last 3 gubernatorial elections and the theories behind 2020. It has been gone over elsewhere and here on ATS ad nauseam. Search and you may still find it. Not saying suggesting or inferring this would, will, or may exonerate the GOP chairman, but it does give a better contemporaneous feel for the life and times of Georgia's political mechanizations.

Not that I even now agree or disagree, but at the time I was skeptical as hell there had been any malfeasance, but after a little research, it made me even completely skeptical little ole me go, it's still not likely but this Georgia and I could see it possibly happening. IIRC there was one particular article that connected the most dots, I'll see if I can find it.

Much later all of this was quietly excused away, which is another hallmark of Georgia politics.

originally posted by: MrInquisitive

originally posted by: RazorV66

A coup against himself?
Trump was still president.

I love these desperate threads, they seem like they are being typed while clutching a laptop on a window ledge of a tall building.
They realize they are screwed with Biden in control but still hate Trump.

No, a coup against the US government. The president is not the government. You might like to take a refresher civics class online. Amongst other things, it's a government of the people, by the people, for the people, not just by the president and for the president. And said president at the time was trying illegitimately to seize a second term in office, a term he lost in the general election, therefore he was attempting a coup.

But your GIF at the bottom of your post sums up the risibility of your argument quite well.

Dude just stop the BS.

Biden’s administration wasn’t installed at the time, therefore a coup to remove them wasn’t possible.

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: MrInquisitive
If you knew US Civics , you would not have to ask .
I don't "cherry pick" , it's just the rest of your post was fluff .
Your turn .

I didn't ask anything in my reply to your post, so I don't understand your attempt at a zinger regarding my knowledge of US civics, and saying if I knew my civics, I wouldn't have to ask. Rather I responded to you, and your terse and out-of-context response to and characterization of my post, which was a response to another person.

As for fluff, apparently to you that consists of anything that substantially challenges your claims and your spin of other people's posts. I've noticed that now with a number of people I have attempted to engage with here. Funny that.

originally posted by: RazorV66

originally posted by: MrInquisitive

originally posted by: RazorV66

A coup against himself?
Trump was still president.

I love these desperate threads, they seem like they are being typed while clutching a laptop on a window ledge of a tall building.
They realize they are screwed with Biden in control but still hate Trump.

No, a coup against the US government. The president is not the government. You might like to take a refresher civics class online. Amongst other things, it's a government of the people, by the people, for the people, not just by the president and for the president. And said president at the time was trying illegitimately to seize a second term in office, a term he lost in the general election, therefore he was attempting a coup.

But your GIF at the bottom of your post sums up the risibility of your argument quite well.

Dude just stop the BS.

Biden’s administration wasn’t installed at the time, therefore a coup to remove them wasn’t possible.

Dude, stop the stupidity and ignorance. I never said the Biden administration was installed at the time, I said that trump was trying to unlawfully interfere with the peaceful transfer of power to the next executive branch administration by attempting to strong-arm the legislative branch of the government, thus it was a coup attempt against the US government. And for gawd's sake once again, the executive branch isn't the sole US government. Yes, I spelled it out in more specific terms this time around, because you clearly didn't get it the first time.

I see your most compelling arguments are the animated gifs you put at the bottom of your posts. It's not really a way to win an argument.

a reply to: MrInquisitive

I didn't ask anything in my reply to your post

However , you inferred.
Failed attempt at deflection .
Your turn . .

originally posted by: putnam6

I suggest you read up on Georgia's last 3 gubernatorial elections and the theories behind 2020. It has been gone over elsewhere and here on ATS ad nauseam. Search and you may still find it. Not saying suggesting or inferring this would, will, or may exonerate the GOP chairman, but it does give a better contemporaneous feel for the life and times of Georgia's political mechanizations.

Not that I even now agree or disagree, but at the time I was skeptical as hell there had been any malfeasance, but after a little research, it made me even completely skeptical little ole me go, it's still not likely but this Georgia and I could see it possibly happening. IIRC there was one particular article that connected the most dots, I'll see if I can find it.

Much later all of this was quietly excused away, which is another hallmark of Georgia politics.

I already know a bit about past Georgia gubernatorial elections, as well as the claims that were made about the 2020 presidential elections, and how those went in court cases at the state and federal levels. I also listened to Donald Trump's entire phone call to Secretary of State Raffensperger, which purdee much caps the matter off. If someone wishes to point me to a specific ATS thread or other link, which they think shows convincing evidence supporting Trump's claim regarding the Georgia presidential election of 2020, I'm happy to check it out, but I'm not going to run around searching the umpteen threads on the topic that are likely on this forum, particularly given the level of "evidence" that many thread OP's rely on here. Seriously, if you can find that one article of which you speak, I would definitely check it out, as you seem a reasonable person.

a reply to: putnam6
this is what happened in Michigan and it happened in all the states that stopped counting for a week...including Georgia

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: MrInquisitive
Also looks like it's more possible than ever that some Trump Attorneys may have been threatened, blackmailed, and paid off 😬

In this case, I wonder: Who, from the roster of former Trump attorneys, could likely be in such a possition? Also, why not blackmail David Schafer. It seems like that's a likely scenario.

I really believe it is a big mistake to consider government and politics without keeping in mind how effective and ubiquitous a role that blackmail fills. With private datamining infiltrated, of all the hidden microphones and cameras become weapons of espionage.

How long does it take on average to secretly record a person of socio-economic power until they do something they would like to keep secret from the world. Maybe blackmail doesn't usually require threats of prosecution or death, maybe all it takes is to threaten their career or even just reputation. It would sure be much easier and cheaper to convince them that their superior or oversight committee is in on it, without having to actually infiltrate such positions.

Now that I'm thinking on it, the absolute cheapest and easiest way to blackmail folks is to actively bait them to partake in such activities. No need to wait, just use whatever data you have on them and tailor the bait activity and threat for the individual.

a reply to: Mahogany

I love how the title just HAD to involve Trump's name. That man has instilled a fear in the weenies of this country that not even ISIS could.

Why are people so afraid of the one guy who actually did what he said he'd do and made things better in this country? Those that hate him offer up a gleaming example of people who can't think independently and only do as the media instructs.