ATS Decorum for members and moderators : May 2023

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
Not much has changed.

The old owner came to visit, that's a change.

Hello Bill, nice to see you.

a reply to: nenothtu

Well, this is where we will have to agree to disagree then. I cannot, for the life of me, find a definition of "free speech" that includes "free-for-all," or "knock down, drag out". It's certainly not to be found in the First Amendment, that the American concept of free speech is founded on.

The first amendment says what the government can not do. In that vein we understand that words are lawful. Which I why I brought up a challenge for you to find a case where assault was waived because the assaulter was justified in response to words.

Free speech, in its purest form can not allow for censorship.

What I find the most interesting is that people are upset with the staff but no one's upset with the people who got the mud-pit pulled in the first place? All of this happened because a handful of people kept whining about the mud pit not being on the front page. In fact, I was in the process of adding a 100% moderator-free forum where people can click on a button and gain access and no mods what so ever.. but there were about 5 people whining about the fact that it wasn't on the front page, so, they decided to do like building 7 and just "pull it".

Complain to the people who got it pulled...

a reply to: Darko

Did any of the 5 have the ability to pull it?



May I share as well?

I find it odd that the most prolific of mud pitters have come no where near these threads.

a reply to: Darko

Yes, and none of those people were the content creators.

Just trolls on the creators threads.

Big distinction.

The major media monopolies cleaned house and ATS suspiciously followed suit at about the same time? K. The most popular VOCAL forum is nixed? K. No others were considered? K. The whole site was fine and dandy except the most popular one, the Mudpit?? Well, okay then.

It's a conspiracy site, sue me.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: nenothtu

Free speech, in its purest form can not allow for censorship.

My apology for the delay - I had to roll another box of smokes. This "off grid" business is not all it's cracked up to be when it comes to feeding one's vices.

Please understand this is coming from an Old Guy, someone who grew up in and navigated the World That Was, before we got to the society we have today.. In those days, we would have understood that statement to be "anarchy" rather than "freedom". it allows only for one person's freedom, and to hell with everyone else - it trampled their rights in the pursuit of it's own.

If there are no rules of conduct, then we have anarchy, and in place of freedom we have the opposite, where everyone has to watch their back. Above, you implied that "censorship", in your conception, was the application of any rule impinging on speech, and so, by extension of that, you believe in no rules, and therefore anarchy.

I'm just not down for that. While rules may be kept to a minimum, there has to be something, some framework, that allows for free speech and resists anarchy.

Anything else is the absence of civilization, and once upon a time we were pretty big on civilization, so that everyone's rights were looked after.

.

Not trying to call you out, but you were one of them.

originally posted by: MykeNukem
a reply to: Darko

Yes, and none of those people were the content creators.

Just trolls on the creators threads.

Big distinction.

a reply to: EternalShadow

Was it though? Did people go there because they liked the nonsense, or did they go there due to the sense of freedom in voicing their minds?

The Mud-Pit became nothing but a catch all for posts that might have been lightly controversial, but also because people might not have known where they should have posted the thread.

I think Darko might have dropped the all out "Don't feed the troll" card by nixing new topics in the Mud-Pit.

a reply to: nenothtu

My apology for the delay - I had to roll another box of smokes. This "off grid" business is not all it's cracked up to be when it comes to feeding one's vices.

You don't owe me anything. I appreciate the rational debate.

Please understand this is coming from an Old Guy, someone who grew up in and navigated the World That Was, before we got to the society we have today.. In those days, we would have understood that statement to be "anarchy" rather than "freedom". it allows only for one person's freedom, and to hell with everyone else - it trampled their rights in the pursuit of it's own.

Sure, I get the sentiment. I call your mother a name, you darken my eye. However, what if the name was true? See, in that scenario, might is right. Hell, we could go into a US foreign policy debate on this premise alone.

The beauty of speech is that when you're done hearing it, you can walk away in a public square.

If there are no rules of conduct, then we have anarchy, and in place of freedom we have the opposite, where everyone has to watch their back. Above, you implied that "censorship", in your conception, was the application of any rule impinging on speech, and so, by extension of that, you believe in no rules, and therefore anarchy.

But we do have rules. As a speaker, speak. As a listener, listen or don't. Again, this applies to a public square, colloquially.

No rights violated, all rights preserved.

Ok then.

You've obviously viewed my posting history?

I'm one of the most polite and respectable people here, but, yes, when pushed I can reciprocate.

Anywayz, just trying to provide some not welcome input...

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: EternalShadow

Was it though? Did people go there because they liked the nonsense, or did they go there due to the sense of freedom in voicing their minds?

The Mud-Pit became nothing but a catch all for posts that might have been lightly controversial, but also because people might not have known where they should have posted the thread.

I think Darko might have dropped the all out "Don't feed the troll" card by nixing new topics in the Mud-Pit.

Yes it was. Numbers don't lie. People went there because in there, they could go there. Every individual I'm sure had their own reasons for visiting, who's to say but mainly yes, it was a place to air it out.

If it was just matter of improper post placement, that's still pretty weak. Are you saying Mods aren't doing their job and allowing improper placement to pad the Mudpit? That would be weird.

It's a mistake. My own personal assessment, but I'm willing to see how this 'Renaissance' will pan out because there seems to be a fair bit of optimism in the potential results.

ATS is great, but you can never have 100% free speech for example you can't yell "I have a bomb" as just joke on a plane.
But ATS is the best forum on the internet that is organized and modern allowing the most free speech allowed, and for that I am grateful. There are other places but they either censor and ban too much(Reddit) or they allow too much garbage and hate(GLP)
I find that ATS is just right, the sweat spot for threads and posting online for just about anything really.

originally posted by: JinMI


But we do have rules. As a speaker, speak. As a listener, listen or don't. Again, this applies to a public square, colloquially.

No rights violated, all rights preserved.

So you're ok with speech, any speech, even speech that violates the rights of another (calls for their death, for example), because we can "walk away" at the end of the violating speech? That seems to me to be a pretty flimsy framework to support a civilization on, but then again, as I've previously mentioned, civilization ain't what it used to be.

That rule set would allow for exactly that form of "free speech", and again, we'd all be looking over our backs for the next assault brought on by someone else's "free speech". You might, in that world, prosecute for the attack, but the next one would be just around the corner, courtesy of "free speech".

"Free speech", in your conception, is being able to say any thing, any where, any time, because people could just walk away when you are finished speaking?


.

originally posted by: MykeNukem

originally posted by: Darko
Not trying to call you out, but you were one of them.

originally posted by: MykeNukem
a reply to: Darko

Yes, and none of those people were the content creators.

Just trolls on the creators threads.

Big distinction.

Ok then.

You've obviously viewed my posting history?

I'm one of the most polite and respectable people here, but, yes, when pushed I can reciprocate.

Anywayz, just trying to provide some not welcome input...

Nah you're cool with me bro, I don't have a horse in the race. It was a handful of posts, one was yours, and then 4 others all at the same time and it's been going on non-stop. To be fair, taken by itself, yours wasn't that bad but all together and it was just too much. I didn't mean to call you out like that but you know because you wrote me a pm.

Your feedback is always appreciated and I didn't mean make you feel like it was unwelcomed. It just doesn't seem to stop (not you, just in general). That mud pit has been a constant distraction and the mods have had to delete dozens of posts complaining about it whether it's to get rid of it or bitching about it being taken off the front page.

The day I moved it off the front page there were like a dozen threads created and it just kept going and going and going. Hell, it's even going on now! Instead of talking about some hardcore data I found about the vax, long term effects, the who when where and how.

So what's the mud pit doing? Distracting from real conversations about real issues, whether it's people arguing about which puppet is better in office or whether it's conversations like this, I'm pretty much done with it. I made some site updates but I have far better things to do and information to share with people etc. etc.

The mud pit is just a big waste of everyone's time. The proof is right here in this very thread.

STill love ya bro.

a reply to: Darko

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but it seems the impetus to remove the mudpit is so people will focus on more worthwhile threads?


Is that accurate?

bro, it got so bad that people were COMPLAINING in the MUD PIT about the mud pit going away! And it was right there! lol. When I think about it like that I'm figuratively laughing out loud because that's how dumbed down it got.. people were starting threads in the mud pit complaining about the mud pit being gone! It's like... WTF? That's gotta be some kind of fatal time shifting madella effecting causing paradox!

a reply to: nenothtu

So you're ok with speech, any speech, even speech that violates the rights of another (calls for their death, for example), because we can "walk away" at the end of the violating speech? That seems to me to be a pretty flimsy framework to support a civilization on, but then again, as I've previously mentioned, civilization ain't what it used to be.

We've laws against that, so that is by definition not lawful speech.

"Free speech", in your conception, is being able to say any thing, any where, any time, because people could just walk away when you are finished speaking?

Lawful speech, yes.

a reply to: EternalShadow

Hardly. The fact that a person could post an idea with a political flavor as a thread without needing to find the actual board to place it might have been one of the reasons for it's popularity. The Mods do a bang-up job here, but posting something in a vague board like the Mud-Pit wasn't really something they should have dealt with.

It was kind of redundant as of posting board really. We had/have those election boards, a board for breaking political news, another one for political madness, and even 5 whole boards in the Political Forum to post in. The Mud-Pit really was redundant and the only thing that was it's draw with the sense that one could type their minds. In reality those same people could type their minds in any of the other boards they just needed to pay attention to the words they used.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: Darko

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but it seems the impetus to remove the mudpit is so people will focus on more worthwhile threads?


Is that accurate?

its' all written in the original post...