Macron asks Xi to reason with Russia for Ukraine peace and The Offensive What Happens If It Fails?

a reply to: purplemer

Like the people in Donbass that want to be Russian.. There choice..?

Are you seriously suggesting that any polls taken throughout Luhansk and Donetsk have any credibility whatsoever?
After who knows how many dead?
Millions displaced.
And it's anybody's guess how many have been forcibly relocated to the Russian hinterlands?

Or the million dead in the Iraq occupation .. Their choice...?

Relevance to Finland wanting to join NATO?

Or how about the protests from the uk about it.. THe biggest ever seen.. Did it stop the war.. of course not.

Are you seriously suggesting that because the UK government didn't listen to the popular discontent over its policies in Iraq that Finland shouldn't be free to decide it wants to join NATO?

I really don't get it when people try to justify the Russian invasion today with the 'what about Iraq' whine.
Because it was wrong to invade Iraq it somehow excuses Putin's invasion of Ukraine and gives him a pass?

a reply to: putnam6

My mistake , apologies.
Tibet still stands though.

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: JinMI

After reviewing that link (the shipping lane map was quite revealing), it seems that the Eu ban on Russian fuels was just a public relations mechanism. "We're going to ban imports form those evil Russians!" "Well, that doesn't mean we won't import Russian oil of course..."

Pure BS wrapped up in layers of self-righteousness. Why am I still surprised to see that?

TheRedneck

Same as every other time innit?

If using ATS as a metric, we can see people being duped, again.

So apparently the strategy works.

Ummm…I’ve personally used the entirety of this last year…as a metric…

Just observing the commentary as it unfolded here on ATS has been a real eye opener…

I’ve watched dyed in the wool people dead set against the current regime…be co-opted by it and root for it…

I really love how logic is stripped away whenever one’s patriotic blinders are firmly in place…

We ultimately dupe ourselves…both in tribal settings and as individuals…

The most amazing aspect…is that the strategy works so powerfully…and peeps I respect transition into borg


It’s enlightening to observe these matrices work in people…a frightening humor…



YouSir

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: purplemer

Yes it's a plan... and for the first time in a long time, the USA is not privy to the details.

Watch Romania. Stay out of Minnesota.

TheRedneck

Ummm…you’ve mentioned this…twice…

I think I almost know where your going with this comment…but I’m not quite there yet…

The Romania aspect is centered around Transnistria…and the collapse of the Romanian government vis a vis Russian influence…

Yet Romania has certain aspirations for their former lands and the Romney population in Ukraine…Yet…they’re a NATO
member…

Throw into the mix the Azov Ukrainian buildup on the eastern border of Transnistria…

Then we see Zelinskyy in Poland virtually ceding the former Polish oblasts of Ukraine to Duda…

A not so jaundiced view might see a partitioning of Ukraine on the horizon…


Ultimately I think it boils down to the Romanian coast and the Black Sea access that offers NATO as well


Your certainly right though…there’s an explosive situation developing there in Romania…

Somehow it paints a picture of a NATO country falling to Russian influence and becoming another Hungary…


As you can see…I’m not quite there yet…



YouSir

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: putnam6

My mistake , apologies.
Tibet still stands though.

I agree with the Tibetan and Uyghurs situations

I also agree no country's hands are clean in the world in this timeline.

Respectfully for example didn't the Steele dossier originate from Britain? America's bestie FWB.

Every country is shady to a certain degree, FWIW it's a survival mechanism.

But considering the now-known to be false narrative of Iraq having WMD, we should always question our country's motives every time we engage in war.

a reply to: putnam6

Don't forget, the war in Afghanistan was predicated on the claim that the Taliban were hiding Osama bin Laden. We now know that this was a lie -- they never did any such thing, and the US government never had any evidence to the contrary.
(Almost certainly, the real reason for that war was to protect the opium trade.)

Going back a bit farther, the US involvement in the Vietnam war was predicated on an "attack" that never happened. (Look up the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.)

Going back a bit further yet, there is compelling evidence that the US government knew in advance that the Japanese were planning to attack Pearl Harbor, but Roosevelt allowed it to happen because he wanted an excuse to get America involved in WW2.

There's nothing at all wrong with questioning your governments claims. It shows that you know that you're dealing with a pack of proven liars.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: JinMI

After reviewing that link (the shipping lane map was quite revealing), it seems that the Eu ban on Russian fuels was just a public relations mechanism. "We're going to ban imports form those evil Russians!" "Well, that doesn't mean we won't import Russian oil of course..."

Pure BS wrapped up in layers of self-righteousness. Why am I still surprised to see that?

TheRedneck

This is what I've been saying since last year. The West's sanctions regime has been all for show. They've carefully avoided doing anything that would truly hurt Putin or have any possibility of actually crippling Russia's economy. And Putin knows it.

The real question is, why did the West do that? Are they all just even weaker leaders than we thought? Or did they do some kind of backroom deal with Putin that if he invaded they'd only do token sanctions? And if we did, what are we getting in return?

a reply to: face23785
I'm not convinced that there have ever been sanctions that weren't just for show. I'm interested to know if anyone can offer any examples that weren't filled with easily-exploited loopholes.

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan
a reply to: face23785
I'm not convinced that there have ever been sanctions that weren't just for show. I'm interested to know if anyone can offer any examples that weren't filled with easily-exploited loopholes.

Your point is generally correct. The one exceptions is the sanctions on Iran in the late 00s and early 10s actually worked and brought Iran to the negotiating table. Might be the only time sanctions ever accomplished anything.

Unfortunately Obama's negotiators were a bunch of empty suits and the Iranians recognized this right away and raked them over the coals. We had all the leverage, but immediately from the outset we let them dictate the terms of the negotiation to us. Their missile program was off the table, their support for terrorism was off the table. Human rights issues were off the table. And the Obama team gave all that up immediately. We should've told them okay enjoy those sanctions for another 5 years and walked away.

At that point the Iranians knew Obama just wanted A deal. And if the other side knows you're going to agree to virtually anything because you just want A deal, you're going to get an awful deal. And we did, we got the joke known as the JCPOA. The Iranians got everything they wanted.

It's so ironic too because when Obama's team took over from Bush in '09, they thought they were so smart. Robert Gates spoke about this in his book Duty (Great read. He is pretty even-handed in criticism of both the Bush and Obama administrations.) Now, finally the smart people were in charge and thought they could fix everything, because these naive clowns genuinely thought most of the world's problems were easy to solve and the only reason anything ever went wrong was because Republicans are stupid.

And then these geniuses committed foreign policy blunder after foreign policy blunder for 8 years, and today we've got the same thing on steroids.

Look at Libya. The only guy to voluntarily give up his WMD and we topple him? Brilliant move Obama and Clinton. That assures no one will ever voluntarily give up WMD again.

Sorry I went off on a tangent.

a reply to: Freeborn

That's not stopped Trump commenting on all sorts of things, and why should it? He's still entitled to voice his opinion, isn't he?

Sure he is. Never said otherwise. That doesn't mean he can put a plan into effect, does it?

He says he could put an end to this invasion, well he should do the world a favour and tell us exactly how.

Maybe... his decision. Donald Trump is just another citizen now, in case you haven't noticed.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Freeborn

That's not stopped Trump commenting on all sorts of things, and why should it? He's still entitled to voice his opinion, isn't he?

Sure he is. Never said otherwise. That doesn't mean he can put a plan into effect, does it?

He says he could put an end to this invasion, well he should do the world a favour and tell us exactly how.

Maybe... his decision. Donald Trump is just another citizen now, in case you haven't noticed.

TheRedneck

It's not like if he revealed a plan Biden would try it. Remember, Democrats were initially against measures to control the spread of Covid because they just had to be against Trump.

Democrats also expressed skepticism about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine, again just to be against Trump.

These people are incapable of rational thought.

a reply to: face23785

I was operating on the belief that the sanctions were real, just not effective. Now it seems they're not even real, just bluster on the airwaves.

what are we getting in return?

You really, really, really do not want me to answer that.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: face23785

I was operating on the belief that the sanctions were real, just not effective. Now it seems they're not even real, just bluster on the airwaves.

For the most part, sanctions are just political theater. It's just an act put on to create the appearance that they're taking a stand.

Did you hear how right after McDonalds closed all of it's locations in Russia, they re-opened again under another name?
Ostensibly they're owned by some Russian businessman now, but I'll bet he's just a front man who reports directly to Ronald back in the US.

I doubt Putin would trust any peace deal with the West. I wouldn't either. The Minsk agreement was a brokered peace deal which the West never intended to keep. Merkel said as much. It was just to buy time so Ukraine could build up its army.
Who's to say that future peace deals won't just be a mask like before?

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: face23785

I was operating on the belief that the sanctions were real, just not effective. Now it seems they're not even real, just bluster on the airwaves.

For the most part, sanctions are just political theater. It's just an act put on to create the appearance that they're taking a stand.

I think that's part of it for sure. People at Biden's level, they know it's just for show. But I think some of the younger, naive people actually think the sanctions are effective and really stick it to Putin. It helps weak people feel tough.

Did you hear how right after McDonalds closed all of it's locations in Russia, they re-opened again under another name?
Ostensibly they're owned by some Russian businessman now, but I'll bet he's just a front man who reports directly to Ronald back in the US.

Another example of the fake virtue signaling from corporate America.

a reply to: AndyFromMichigan

Did you hear how right after McDonalds closed all of it's locations in Russia, they re-opened again under another name?
Ostensibly they're owned by some Russian businessman now, but I'll bet he's just a front man who reports directly to Ronald back in the US.

No, I didn't, but I doubt it was to funnel resources back to the USA. Do you not remember after the wall fell, how US corporations drained Russia of every penny and resource they could under the guise of helping them to develop capitalism?

I promise you, Russia remembers.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: YouSir

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: JinMI

After reviewing that link (the shipping lane map was quite revealing), it seems that the Eu ban on Russian fuels was just a public relations mechanism. "We're going to ban imports form those evil Russians!" "Well, that doesn't mean we won't import Russian oil of course..."

Pure BS wrapped up in layers of self-righteousness. Why am I still surprised to see that?

TheRedneck

Same as every other time innit?

If using ATS as a metric, we can see people being duped, again.

So apparently the strategy works.

Ummm…I’ve personally used the entirety of this last year…as a metric…

Just observing the commentary as it unfolded here on ATS has been a real eye opener…

I’ve watched dyed in the wool people dead set against the current regime…be co-opted by it and root for it…

I really love how logic is stripped away whenever one’s patriotic blinders are firmly in place…

We ultimately dupe ourselves…both in tribal settings and as individuals…

The most amazing aspect…is that the strategy works so powerfully…and peeps I respect transition into borg


It’s enlightening to observe these matrices work in people…a frightening humor…

YouSir

I was surprised as you were.

It's something I just do not understand. The gap in logic is clear, and no matter how you attempt to fill it, its just a black hole.

So the remaining question I guess is, why?

a reply to: kwakakev

I don't get people that put Trump on a pedastle "if trump was in power everything would be solved!". For one, Trump wasn't against the military industrial complex. He gave weapons to Saudi Arabia even when much of the world was shaming Saudi Arabia for human rights violations and killing of a journalist.

Secondly, Trump continued Obama's era of drone strikes. Trump even increased the protocols that allow when drone strikes can occur, which resulted in more drone strikes and more civilian deaths.

Trump only decided to take a step to move out of Afghanistan at the end of his presidency. He is not against war at all if you look at his actions.

And Trump's statements saying how he would resolve the situation quickly only shows that he doesn't actually have a real plan in place. Saying, "ill fix that easily, should of elected me!" isn't a plan. It's political bostering.

While Biden is a complete wreck, there's nothing indicating Trump would be much better. Trump had four years to make sweeping changes. He HAD his chance and showed us that he's not too much differn't from the status quo.

a reply to: JinMI


Ummm...the why is easy...we love our illusions...wrap ourselves tight in homespun and apple pie...

The surrealism was a construct designed to keep the tribes compliant...

It's a path of least resistance equation...and most choose the bovine contentment that illusion offers...

We truly do live in the matrix...in idyllic dreams of Americana...

You and I just happen to have taken the red pill...

How does it feel...Neo...?

I'm a logic driven lifeform...amongst a herd of flatulent self absorbed NPC's...

It's really quite amusing watching them scurry thither and yon...not denying ignorance...

For what its worth...I've never thought of you as a herd animal either...





YouSir

1. China does not take orders from France.

2. France benefits from conflict between China and the US. Recently China replaced every Boeing plane in China with an Airbus plane.