Progressive Deception

originally posted by: dandandat2

a reply to: SecrettoSociety

Im a Social Democrat who finds little use for the Democrats or Republicans, and Im confused as to how the progressive politicians keep pushing for woke everything ?
I would be extremely surprised if 5% of Democrats believe any of the woke s#it they pander to in their bases .

Because while yes the majority of democrats don't believe in the "woke agenda"; they do "want" to believe in it. They simply hold their own desires higher than that of the "woke agenda".

So when it comes time to vote; or virtue signal they are all about the "woke" but when the police impact them directly the Democrats get all NIMBY.

I agree it is about votes & optics , but they never deliver , because they know it is lunacy.
Just like Biden drilling in Alaska now ?
The environmentalists should be marching on DC over Ohio & now oil drilling in Alaska ?
The Republicans never deliver to their base either.
It is good cop bad cop skit on all of us .
Why do people with brains vote for any of them ?
Do you not tire of the ineptitude of the Republicans & kooks in the Democrat’s ranks .
Then there are the kookiest like MTG & AOC .

originally posted by: dandandat2

a reply to: SecrettoSociety

Im a Social Democrat who finds little use for the Democrats or Republicans, and Im confused as to how the progressive politicians keep pushing for woke everything ?
I would be extremely surprised if 5% of Democrats believe any of the woke s#it they pander to in their bases .

Because while yes the majority of democrats don't believe in the "woke agenda"; they do "want" to believe in it. They simply hold their own desires higher than that of the "woke agenda".

So when it comes time to vote; or virtue signal they are all about the "woke" but when the police impact them directly the Democrats get all NIMBY.

I agree it is about votes & optics , but they never deliver , because they know it is lunacy.
Just like Biden drilling in Alaska now ?
The environmentalists should be marching on DC over Ohio & now oil drilling in Alaska ?
The Republicans never deliver to their base either.
It is good cop bad cop skit on all of us .
Why do people with brains vote for any of them ?
Do you not tire of the ineptitude of the Republicans & kooks in the Democrat’s ranks .
Then there are the kookiest like MTG & AOC .

originally posted by: dandandat2

a reply to: SecrettoSociety

Im a Social Democrat who finds little use for the Democrats or Republicans, and Im confused as to how the progressive politicians keep pushing for woke everything ?
I would be extremely surprised if 5% of Democrats believe any of the woke s#it they pander to in their bases .

Because while yes the majority of democrats don't believe in the "woke agenda"; they do "want" to believe in it. They simply hold their own desires higher than that of the "woke agenda".

So when it comes time to vote; or virtue signal they are all about the "woke" but when the police impact them directly the Democrats get all NIMBY.

I agree it is about votes & optics , but they never deliver , because they know it is lunacy.
Just like Biden drilling in Alaska now ?
The environmentalists should be marching on DC over Ohio & now oil drilling in Alaska ?
The Republicans never deliver to their base either.
It is good cop bad cop skit on all of us .
Why do people with brains vote for any of them ?
Do you not tire of the ineptitude of the Republicans & kooks in the Democrat’s ranks .
Then there are the kookiest like MTG & AOC .

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety
Im against high taxes & for fair taxes for all , including corporations. Our tax laws need to be 8 pages long with no loopholes for the wealthiest.

And the US still brings in over 4 trillion each year in taxes, so maybe taxes isn't the right conversation here, but ya 30,000-page tax code and an additional 85,000-armed IRS agents is not the answer.

Corporate gross profits are about 12 trillion per year, 8% is about 1 trillion and about 400 billion in taxes were paid last year
Income is like 22 trillion 8% is about 1.8 trillion and about 1.1 trillion in taxes were paid last year

Maybe it is how much we spend though that is the issue...lol

Democrats spend & Republicans borrow to balance the books . In the end , the spending never stops on either side , it’s just served on different platters .
We if anything have a Federal Reserve problem behind all of it ?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: SecrettoSociety

It's the same idea.

If you don't want corporations to have any loopholes or breaks or any ways to skirt through paying their full percentage, then you shouldn't be taking advantage of any means of doing so for yourself, either.

So ... do you?

There are “ legal” tax deductions for all , but the corporate tax laws get jockeyed around non-stop in countless unread bills that pass through 2 branches of government.
Problem is , if you an average American tried all the tricks on the books to get out of taxes , you would be audited overnight.
Amazon is not audited in any real manner at all , because they have buildings of crooked tax lawyers who are pouring through thousands of pages of corporate tax codes . When they hit a snag , Bezos rings a Senator or two & that is how new tax laws are created.
Corporate tax laws are criminal & the individual tax laws are designed to bleed the middle class .

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: SecrettoSociety

You have so many wrong ideas in that post it's not worth trying to talk about it further.

I am not MAGA by the way or a Republican or Democrat. I want nothing to do with either party. What I am is intelligent enough not to parrot others and to base my views on reality, not partisan or ideological crap.

Thanks for the conversation.

You accept defeat then ?
Stand & deliver your anti-thesis

originally posted by: Ahabstar

But by then, we were already exporting jobs to Japan and South Korea in the late 1970’s. As well as Taiwan and China.

The US was a net exporter until all we could export was jobs. Even today, help telephone help centers are in India via VOIP.

China entering the African and Central/South America markets will hedge the US out of future exports.

So one needs to ask why did jobs go overseas... I think Trump knows... If you think of business as a river flowing in the direction of most profit it was more profitable to have things made around the other side of the world than even in our own backyard of the Americas. Just think how crazy that concept is, and it is driven by our Government not doing a damn thing to change the flow of that river so that companies would manufacture back here at home as the best current to profit.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Of course it was more profitable. Lower wages and no tariffs meant lower production cost. If a product sells for $10 and costs $3 if you make it and $1.50 if China makes it, transports it and sells it to you wholesale…then pretty obvious who is making the product. While companies pay the expensive 50% luxury tax up front, they are reimbursed in the price by the consumer.

But who is going to buy it if they can’t swing the $10 because all the good paying jobs are gone? That question is where Trump’s MAGA/AF stems from. Not an alien concept. Just one that got a handy name.

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: Xtrozero

Of course it was more profitable. Lower wages and no tariffs meant lower production cost. If a product sells for $10 and costs $3 if you make it and $1.50 if China makes it, transports it and sells it to you wholesale…then pretty obvious who is making the product. While companies pay the expensive 50% luxury tax up front, they are reimbursed in the price by the consumer.

But who is going to buy it if they can’t swing the $10 because all the good paying jobs are gone? That question is where Trump’s MAGA/AF stems from. Not an alien concept. Just one that got a handy name.

Then you increase the cost to make overseas to 3.25 per item and the jobs come home as it become cheaper with no long shipping delays. On a side note, it seems this whole China model is going down fast as massive shipping delays are hitting everyone that should have impact to where future items are manufactured.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety

37 million is 16% of what Trump makes .
My wife & I make 190 k a year combined. We pay 12% on 84,000 & 25% on 105,000 for a combined 37,000 in Federal taxes equalling 20% . Then there is State taxes . Combined we pay 30-38% in taxes .
Your pies are muddled up .

Ok, so I make 50k more than you and my total tax was just under 20k ( a little over 8%)... Am I a bad man?


He still paid 37 million overall in one year. He also employs 22,000+ people. Why can't you be more like Trump? Move to a state with no taxes like what I did... BTW how much over all taxes does Trump pay...who knows

Just think if every worker paid 37 million in taxes for one year that would be 5,550 trillion, I think others need to step up or shut up... I'm not envious of the rich but that seems to be what drives much of this.

Trump year after year pays less taxes than a bartender percentage wise .

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: SecrettoSociety

There was this super secret conflict over in Europe in the late 1930’s to mid 1940’s that pretty much destroyed all manufacturing. US didn’t really get hit. And had both men and women as trained and experienced laborers. The US was producing for the world until they got back on their feet in the mid 1960’s.

But by then, we were already exporting jobs to Japan and South Korea in the late 1970’s. As well as Taiwan and China.

The US was a net exporter until all we could export was jobs. Even today, help telephone help centers are in India via VOIP.

China entering the African and Central/South America markets will hedge the US out of future exports.

Absolutely true . China is the new Colonial power on earth . They will strip Africa clean.

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety
Trump year after year pays less taxes than a bartender percentage wise .

Does a bartender make more than 60% of the income bracket? If not, then he is paying like 0 to 3%. It is funny you say bartender because they don't actually include all their tips as income either.

But once again you are stuck on percentages and not actuals like you are a better American because you paid 30k for taxes and he only paid 37 million due to percentages and he provides jobs to 22,000 people... THANK YOU great American!

Trump is the only one to come out OPENLY and say the system is rigged, he said he knows because he plays in it. How about Bill and Hillary that went from nothing to 250 million in 10 years with their "pay for play" charity. They got smarter from the Whitewater days when they almost got caught...lol

It's a level of envy, and nothing more. How the hell did Biden get rich???????? And here we are talking about Trump...lol give me a BREAK! They will not find anything in his taxes because he has a team to make sure he is legal 100%, they keep trying though even in really weird directions too.

You just do not get it... Once again, I paid 8% without cheating, and I make more than you...

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety
Trump year after year pays less taxes than a bartender percentage wise .

Does a bartender make more than 60% of the income bracket? If not, then he is paying like 0 to 3%. It is funny you say bartender because they don't actually include all their tips as income either.

But once again you are stuck on percentages and not actuals like you are a better American because you paid 30k for taxes and he only paid 37 million due to percentages and he provides jobs to 22,000 people... THANK YOU great American!

Trump is the only one to come out OPENLY and say the system is rigged, he said he knows because he plays in it. How about Bill and Hillary that went from nothing to 250 million in 10 years with their "pay for play" charity. They got smarter from the Whitewater days when they almost got caught...lol

It's a level of envy, and nothing more. How the hell did Biden get rich???????? And here we are talking about Trump...lol give me a BREAK! They will not find anything in his taxes because he has a team to make sure he is legal 100%, they keep trying though even in really weird directions too.

You just do not get it... Once again, I paid 8% without cheating, and I make more than you...

You are making my point for me . The tax laws are written by the elites & us saps pay the lions share . Flat tax upon everyone.
Look up the tax rates of the 50s-80s when we still had massive manufacturing here & 35% Union representation in all of America. Those grand days you wish were hear again were heavy tax years & that made for a great society.
The corporations didn't flee America in the 50s-80s for cheaper tax havens, because there were heavy penalties for doing so . Then Reagan & David Stockman showed up & it’s been a corporate/consumerism inverse squared hell since then.

a reply to: SecrettoSociety

the us is not the rising power it was in the 40 to 80s its also not a unipolar world anymore.. the us doesn't have the manufacturing, moral high ground or passion to compete that it did as a new power, in the modern context it doesn't offer the freedoms/wealth/privileges or dreams to its own let alone anyone else. people will pay high taxes for a dream they'll reject paying them for a nightmare..

post 80s in the unipolar world dominated by the USA that emerged after the soviet fall we had a two fold issue, Reagan/thatcher gave us extreme globalised liberal economics then Blair/Clinton added extreme social liberalisation.. its that combination that binds us all in a similar fate. Republican/democrat, liberal/socialist/conservative all have an investment in making this merger work for themselves.. if anything that is the true nature of the blob behind the pollical parties which is addicted to the extremes.

this is the combination liberal icons like Belloc warned us (at the time warning the unipolar British empire) as to what new liberalism would look like, the warning was that capitalism and socialism would not fight to the death as everyone thought but rather merge into something new we can sit it in western parties today.

in the 1930s Orwell pointed to Belloc and then to Nazism as an example of what that world would look like I think macros France is closer for us.

the thing is that world hands the likes of Putin as the Nazi world handed communism the keys to say look in comparison we are the lesser evil and in that vein that thinking can excuse its own barbarism.. its why they use the Nazi line.

along side this China is doing a similar pointing to the themselves as the lesser evil even when its alleged they are committing genocide in the same way the USA with its heavy history pointed to themselves as the lesser evil in the context of British colonialism.

unless the us and west can find their way out of this negative mess (thatcher/blair, reagan/clinton) Chinas rise will become unstoppable as China offers the positives the USA once offered.

the us and west are not at the end but they do have to stop this constant world ending negativity as its not only draining it gets boring after a while, and worse it's fast becoming a joke.

originally posted by: nickyw
a reply to: SecrettoSociety

the us is not the rising power it was in the 40 to 80s its also not a unipolar world anymore.. the us doesn't have the manufacturing, moral high ground or passion to compete that it did as a new power, in the modern context it doesn't offer the freedoms/wealth/privileges or dreams to its own let alone anyone else. people will pay high taxes for a dream they'll reject paying them for a nightmare..

post 80s in the unipolar world dominated by the USA that emerged after the soviet fall we had a two fold issue, Reagan/thatcher gave us extreme globalised liberal economics then Blair/Clinton added extreme social liberalisation.. its that combination that binds us all in a similar fate. Republican/democrat, liberal/socialist/conservative all have an investment in making this merger work for themselves.. if anything that is the true nature of the blob behind the pollical parties which is addicted to the extremes.

this is the combination liberal icons like Belloc warned us (at the time warning the unipolar British empire) as to what new liberalism would look like, the warning was that capitalism and socialism would not fight to the death as everyone thought but rather merge into something new we can sit it in western parties today.

in the 1930s Orwell pointed to Belloc and then to Nazism as an example of what that world would look like I think macros France is closer for us.

the thing is that world hands the likes of Putin as the Nazi world handed communism the keys to say look in comparison we are the lesser evil and in that vein that thinking can excuse its own barbarism.. its why they use the Nazi line.

along side this China is doing a similar pointing to the themselves as the lesser evil even when its alleged they are committing genocide in the same way the USA with its heavy history pointed to themselves as the lesser evil in the context of British colonialism.

unless the us and west can find their way out of this negative mess (thatcher/blair, reagan/clinton) Chinas rise will become unstoppable as China offers the positives the USA once offered.

the us and west are not at the end but they do have to stop this constant world ending negativity as its not only draining it gets boring after a while, and worse it's fast becoming a joke.

Well said , you forgot the decimation of Unions starting with Reagan. We have no government , but rather corporations writing all our bills & tax laws .
In the near future people will have to choose a Corporate company as their beginning & end of life for all your needs . The House & Senate are corporate boards for the top 25 fortune 500 .

originally posted by: nickyw
a reply to: Xtrozero

I would argue the last thing woke is actually left wing, in a lot of ways its has the attributes of a dogmatic conservative religion, and while some like to claim its neopagan ironically for Biden/Pelosi it has all the hallmarks of a protestant sect.. in some regards this could be seen as a continuation of the reformation, you only have to look what is happening to some deeply roman catholic countries to notice the impact with Catholicism entering terminal decline..

and looking at the anglosphere the most woke of all are catholic majority countries. its no mistake England is seen as the beating heart of terfdom as the English have clashed with this protestant stream since the reformation, as protestant streams go it was a key one that drove the quakers to the Americas, during the 1970s it was relabeled libertarian communism by the then Marxists aiming to claim descent from such groups..

its this element that I think risks turning the west into a sectarian nightmare..

Words matter.
Leftist and liberal are not the same thing.
However, liberals seem to have embraced leftist and welcomed them into the fold. Promoting the leftist agenda over their own ideals. This is due to the "bleeding heart" of liberals. They see someone "victimized" (by their own doing) and want to "help". The type of "help" they give usually does not end well for society.

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety
You are making my point for me . The tax laws are written by the elites & us saps pay the lions share . Flat tax upon everyone.

I don't understand your point here. Are you saying we need more in taxes or the bottom 90% should pay less?

The top 1% pay an average of 26%. That equates to 41% of all taxes collected. The bottom 90% pay only 28% to the total, so the top 10% pay like 72% of all taxes personally and provide jobs to million who also pay taxes.

Look up the tax rates of the 50s-80s when we still had massive manufacturing here & 35% Union representation in all of America.

Then Asia made it cheaper to manufacture there and also the world undercut manufacturing with foreign Government off setting costs with subsidies, so as example they sold steel below cost to make anywhere to undercut the American market and after two decades the steel industry in America collapsed. Rince and repeat over and over.

Unions also help kill jobs here...

Those grand days you wish were hear again were heavy tax years & that made for a great society.

Actually no, America started to go down faster around 2012... But I do agree we need to look at the Good things from that past and bring them back. No need to say OK let's roll back to 1950 with all the good and bad... How about just cherry picking what was good and leave the bad back in 1950.
Our forefathers didn't even want a federal Government... Keep taxes at the state level and here you suggest heavy fed taxes is what makes America great, they would roll over in their graves hearing that.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety
You are making my point for me . The tax laws are written by the elites & us saps pay the lions share . Flat tax upon everyone.

I don't understand your point here. Are you saying we need more in taxes or the bottom 90% should pay less?

The top 1% pay an average of 26%. That equates to 41% of all taxes collected. The bottom 90% pay only 28% to the total, so the top 10% pay like 72% of all taxes personally and provide jobs to million who also pay taxes.

Look up the tax rates of the 50s-80s when we still had massive manufacturing here & 35% Union representation in all of America.

Then Asia made it cheaper to manufacture there and also the world undercut manufacturing with foreign Government off setting costs with subsidies, so as example they sold steel below cost to make anywhere to undercut the American market and after two decades the steel industry in America collapsed. Rince and repeat over and over.

Unions also help kill jobs here...

Those grand days you wish were hear again were heavy tax years & that made for a great society.

Actually no, America started to go down faster around 2012... But I do agree we need to look at the Good things from that past and bring them back. No need to say OK let's roll back to 1950 with all the good and bad... How about just cherry picking what was good and leave the bad back in 1950.
Our forefathers didn't even want a federal Government... Keep taxes at the state level and here you suggest heavy fed taxes is what makes America great, they would roll over in their graves hearing that.

All of your facts are Republican spin & are no where close to reality. The top wealthiest 5% of American individual tax burden is 12-16% of their gross incomes. You & I cant afford a tax lawyer 365 days a year telling us how to get out of paying taxes through creative loopholes unavailable to us common folks.

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety

All of your facts are Republican spin & are no where close to reality. The top wealthiest 5% of American individual tax burden is 12-16% of their gross incomes. You & I cant afford a tax lawyer 365 days a year telling us how to get out of paying taxes through creative loopholes unavailable to us common folks.

I pulled the info off the IRS website...

I'm still trying to understand what you are getting at here. If the top 10% pays 72% of all income taxes what is your goal here? Do you want the top 10% pay 90% or some other percent? Are you suggesting we should get more over all income taxes. IDK why IRS would suggest the top 1% pay 26% on an average. They need to be paying something right if they are paying 41% of the total.

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: SecrettoSociety
You are making my point for me . The tax laws are written by the elites & us saps pay the lions share . Flat tax upon everyone.

I don't understand your point here. Are you saying we need more in taxes or the bottom 90% should pay less?

The top 1% pay an average of 26%. That equates to 41% of all taxes collected. The bottom 90% pay only 28% to the total, so the top 10% pay like 72% of all taxes personally and provide jobs to million who also pay taxes.

Look up the tax rates of the 50s-80s when we still had massive manufacturing here & 35% Union representation in all of America.

Then Asia made it cheaper to manufacture there and also the world undercut manufacturing with foreign Government off setting costs with subsidies, so as example they sold steel below cost to make anywhere to undercut the American market and after two decades the steel industry in America collapsed. Rince and repeat over and over.

Unions also help kill jobs here...

Those grand days you wish were hear again were heavy tax years & that made for a great society.

Actually no, America started to go down faster around 2012... But I do agree we need to look at the Good things from that past and bring them back. No need to say OK let's roll back to 1950 with all the good and bad... How about just cherry picking what was good and leave the bad back in 1950.
Our forefathers didn't even want a federal Government... Keep taxes at the state level and here you suggest heavy fed taxes is what makes America great, they would roll over in their graves hearing that.

All of your facts are Republican spin & are no where close to reality. The top wealthiest 5% of American individual tax burden is 12-16% of their gross incomes. You & I cant afford a tax lawyer 365 days a year telling us how to get out of paying taxes through creative loopholes unavailable to us common folks.

Im saying we need iron clad basic tax laws like Scandinavian countries do . In those simple tax laws are set in stone percentages that no one can get around , including corporations.
0-35,00 a year pays 5%
36,000-85,000 a year pay 10%
86,000-125,000 a year pay 15%
126,000- 200,000 a year pay 20%
200,100 -350,000 a year pay 25%
350,100- Million a year pay 30%
1 million-10 million a year pay 40%
10 million - 100 million a year pay 45%
100-million & above pay pay 50%
All corporations in the top 50 of the fortune 500 pay 25%
All tax percentage are then impossible to get out of .
No more tax refunds or deductions except for mortgages , health expenses & education.
10 million & above individuals who own a business with 12 or more employees can take a 5% write off .