Roswell and Unsolved Mysteries

a reply to: mirageman
Ahhhhhhh yes Unsolved Mysteries.
I chatted with Kevin Randle and led him to my thread. Lost cause... still won't give in. But then again, there's lots of $$$ to be made. I've given up the ghost on believers.

This one mentions Roswell….

As I read it…..it speaks to an object seen at different places ….but if the word I underlined in red …is the word “same”….then this doc says the object seen is the same object in all the places mentioned.



Now below are pics I can’t verify to be true or false. The Roswell Main street pic below…shows what appears to be a egg shaped object on a flatbed. The egg shape was also the description of the Socorro craft. Socorro is mentioned in the document.



Here is another unverified pic of a damaged craft supposedly at Wright Patterson. The Roswell craft? It looks like a collage of Pareidolia faces.



What’s the verdict at least as far as the document?

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Frank Kaufman, an enlisted army man serving at Roswell, was the first insider witness claiming Roswell was a legitimate crashed saucer and that alien bodies were recovered. Kaufmann claimed he was part of a secret intelligence group of nine people commissioned to deal with the Roswell crash.

According to Kaufman, just a few miles from the original Foster ranch debris field, the Army found another site where a largely intact saucer and dead aliens were found.

The first problem with this claim is that he came forward 43 years after the events at Roswell. The main ufologists he revealed this to were Kevin Randall and Don Schmitt in 1990 and the Roswell debunker ufologist Karl Pflock.

Originally Randall and Schmidt believed Kaufman or at least thought he could not be debunked.
Later CUFOS ufologist Mark Rodeghieron and Schmitt further investigation exposed Kaufman was a forger. The secret documents he showed Randle and Don Schmitt was faked.

Given all this evidence of counterfeit documents, we
can have no confidence in any details of Kaufmann’s testimony, even though he certainly was in Roswell in 1947 and
worked at the base (though in the personnel office, not
intelligence). We can speculate on his motives and why he
deceived investigators, but that will probably be of little use
today. The critical point is that we have determined the
validity of Kaufmann’s testimony, and can now discard it as
we seek to establish what exactly did, and did not, occur at
Roswell in July 1947.

link

Later Randle himself admitted Kaufmann was a forger.

Frank’s stories all unraveled right after he died in 2001. Dr. Mark Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies, with Mark Chesney and Don Schmitt were in Roswell and were asked by Kaufmann’s widow, a very nice lady named Juanita, if they would check his papers to make sure there were no obligations that he had failed to meet prior to his death. While searching those papers, they found the evidence that Frank had forged many of the documents, that he had a supply of the old paper, that he had been nothing more than a staff sergeant (which is not to say that staff sergeants aren’t important, only that he hadn’t been a master sergeant), that he had two old typewriters, and other bits and pieces. It meant that th Kaufmann tales were little more than the inventions of a clever man."

link

Editorial comment

It would be interesting to know whether Mr. Kaufman decided on his own to indulge in this apparently false story. Or was he a part of a larger disinformation scheme that resurrected the Roswell meme starting in the late 70s and unto the early and mid-90s?

Think Bennewitz era/Doty/Bill Moore antics/MJ 12 revelations, and the Roswell books by a squad of ufologists, all directly or indirectly manipulated by the army and IC-related disinformation schemers from 1978 to the mid-90s.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1

However the $3000 figure was not sponsored by the military from what the article reads….but by civilians. It say’s verbatim……

….”Disc Stories Spurs Rewards Offers”….

….“Two organizations and an individual today offered rewards totaling $3000 for the capture of a “flying saucer” as “the true explanation of the phenomenon”.

I wonder who the two organizations and the individual (singular) were?

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The answer to my own question….

On July 8, United Press reported that Soviet Vice Counsel Eugene Tunantzev denied responsibility for the discs, saying that "Russia respects the sovereignty of all governments and by no stretch of the imagination would use another country for a proving ground." American officials agreed, dismissing speculation that the discs might be 'secret weapons of use in bacteriological warfare'.[102] $1,000 rewards were offered in three different parts of the country: in Los Angeles, the "World Inventors' Exposition" announced a $1,000 reward for 'flying disc' by the end of the week.[103] Similar rewards were offered by entrepreneur E.J. Culligan of Northbrook Illinois and the Spokane Athletic Round Table, described as a 'group of gagsters'.

Source: 1947 flying disc craze

An amazing wiki read I have never read before. Apparently a whole lot of stuff happened in 1947…especially in the summer time.

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

An interesting find for wiki.

I'll give it a study.

Dolan's UFOs and the National Security state cover much of that very well in book I, 1941-1973.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Sorry I am not familiar with that memo. Although it comes from 1949. So is not connected with the events in July 1947.

Nor the photos. And speculating really doesn't add anything in this case. Maybe someone else has seen these?

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

1947 was the Summer of Saucers.



Report on UFO Wave 1947

One theory behind all the "Flying Disc" sightings is that this was a psy-op by the military to fool the Soviet Union into believing the Western allies were developing a new weapon. Various methods like launching balloons and dropping props from aircraft were employed. Knowing stories would end up in the local and national press.

As just one example, there is a news story of aluminium discs being found in Texas, reported on exactly the same day the Roswell story broke.



One report clearly states that the disc contained very specific wording

“Military secret of the United States of America, Army Air Forces M4339658. Anyone damaging or revealing description or whereabouts of this missile subject to prosecution by the U. S. government. Call collect at once, LD446, Army Air Forces Depot, Spokane, Wash.”... the words “non-explosive” also were carried.

The witness later recanted the story. Even though he clearly reported the wording on the object. All very strange.

You also have to remember that there was no UFO/Flying Saucer mythology like we have today. These were intiially sightings of flying saucers/discs that were being reported. The theory is that the US wanted these reports to end up in Moscow and the Soviet intelligence services to join dots and believe that the discs were part of a new secret weapons project. However, the collateral damage from it all was sci-fi inspired paranoia. By the early 1950s many people were now convinced these "flying saucers" were alien spacecraft coming to Earth.

a reply to: mirageman

Is that a part of James Carrion's theory? Or related to it?

I tend to doubt that theory about deceiving Russia since the UFO " craze" spread worldwide. Plus, the idea doesn't make much sense in itself.

Thanks for that link.

The interesting thing about this is it's probably free of government tampering. Unless, of course, one thinks it was all the US government.

There’s no evidence of that. The evidence points to the US government being baffled by the phenomenon and didn’t start their psyops and outright lying until a few years later.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

1947 was the Summer of Saucers.

Report on UFO Wave 1947

A quick read……Mass hysteria: An epidemic of the mind?

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a reply to: peaceinoutz

Yes, it's only a tiny part of his human deception theory. It's interesting and the research exhausting. But ultimately the evidence is circumstantial. Far too much to discuss here. For those interested, his two books are free as PDFs and available at this link..

There were an awful lot of disc or saucer reports in the US during June and July 1947. But if the idea was to create flying saucer stories to scare the Russians, then it backfired. Plus as you say other sightings were happening across the world.

If this really was a US govt. psy-op then they also allowed the air force to set up Projects Sign, Grudge and Blue Book to study a subject that they were partially responsible for!! Which doesn't make sense.

a reply to: mirageman

Don’t worry, I have no interest in going into Carrion's theory here. However, I respect the guy greatly.

Anyway, you know I’m all for a good psyop theory, but I look for evidence circumstantial or tangible. And it’s just none I’ve seen. The interplay between the US IC and Airforce with Kehoe in that era is instructive and prime proof against any kind of government super psyop to invent ufos for any reason. All the evidence I've seen shows the gov as baffled as anyone at the time.

It’s an unsolved mystery why the ufos started showing up profusely (since we know there were scattered ufos before that) in the summer and late spring of 1947.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

If you actually check out P55 of that PDF Report on UFO Wave 1947 it has an interesting take on Roswell.

It was written in 1967 and illustrates how the case was viewed at the time. It was almost as if they already knew what it was anyway.

While newspapers still carried a few apparently genuine UFO reports -- often burried among a mishmash of superficial nonsense -- the kind of stories that made headlines after July 8th were the kind the sort the reader found impossible to take seriously. If a report wasn’t an out-and-out hoax, it was an embarrassingly obvious mistake.

One of these mistakes, given the widest possible publicity, had its origins near Roswell, New Mexico, when a farmer named William W. ("Mac") Brazel discovered the wreckage of a disc on his ranch near Corona, early in July. After hearing news broadcasts of flying saucer reports, Brazel, who had stored pieces of the disc in a barn, notified the Sheriff's Office in Roswell, who, in turn, notified Major Jesse A. Marcel, of the Roswell Army Air Field intelligence office.

The remnants of the disc were taken to Roswell Field for examination Through a series of clumsy blunders in public relations, and a desire by the press to manufacture a crashed disc if none would obligingly crash of itself, the story got blown up out of all proportions that read "Crashed Disc Found in New Mexico."

According to AP on July 8th, public information officer Lt. Walter Haught made an announcement of the discovery:

“The many rumors regarding the flying di became a reality yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group o the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the cooperation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's office of Chavez County.”

The effect of this reckless statement was equal to an atomic detonation; results were immediate. While newspapers deluged the air base for additional information, a search party was sent out to scour the landing site for additional fragments; the collected remains of whatever it was that had crashed on Brazel’s ranch were taken to Eighth Air Force headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas. There, Brigadier General Roger M. Ramey tried to clarify matters by first explaining that no one had actually seen the object in the air; that the remains were of a flimsy construction; that it was partially composed of tinfoil; and, finally, that it was the wreckage of "a high altitude weather device."

Warrant Office Irving Newton, a weather forecaster at the Fort Worth Weather Station, had identified the crashed "disc" as the remains of weather equipment used widely by weather stations around the country when sending balloons aloft to measure wind directions and velocity. There remains the possibility that some super-secret upper-atmospheric balloon experiment had crashed near Corona, which would have accounted for all the confusion and secrecy involved in its recovery.

Whether the pictured balloon equipment carried widely in the press was actually a photograph of the recovered fragments remained a question, but news editors should have been on their toes:

originally posted by: mirageman
Warrant Office Irving Newton, a weather forecaster at the Fort Worth Weather Station, had identified the crashed "disc" as the remains of weather equipment used widely by weather stations around the country when sending balloons aloft to measure wind directions and velocity. There remains the possibility that some super-secret upper-atmospheric balloon experiment had crashed near Corona, which would have accounted for all the confusion and secrecy involved in its recovery.

Here goes a news story from the Joplin Globe July 9 1947…..concerning WO Irving Newton….(I don’t have pg 7)



Also the last paragraph ….

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Irving Newton was photographed with the debris on July 8th 1947



One of very few pictures related to the incident.

Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express quoted a Caltech scientist in nuclear physics who asked to remain anonymous, who suggested the flying discs [reported between 24th June - 6th July 1947] might be the result of experiments in the "transmutation of atomic energy".

I've not been able to get a copy of the original LA Herald & Express, but the story was picked up the following day by newspapers across the USA via the Associated Press, with rebuttals by various top government scientists like Harold Urey who called that claim "gibberish", yet he admitted that he didn't have any information about the flying discs, and couldn't say what they were. These quick and vicious rebuttals the following day, almost seemed like a government debunking exercise, to kill off that line of enquiry.

a reply to: MaxMaxB

An "anonymous" source commenting on "transmutation of atomic energy" is questionable, of course.

But there were indeed reports. One of them even links it to Hanford.

This one from the Dayton Daily News - July 6th 1947

a reply to: mirageman yep, it is interesting that the powerful cyclotrons being built during, and shortly before this period, accelerated particles in a disc like spiral path between two huge magnets.

Another pic of a different person……



Here is his affidavit……



What I find interesting in the affidavit written in 1991……underlined in blue……it starts out as an “object” then reduced to “material” material that fits in a “container” (unlike the mentioning of using a crate). Then to be transported by a “personal courier”.

I’m envisioning a container just big enough that would hold piece parts……and not transporting any large cargo plane size chunks of a purported crashed craft…..imo.

Then in essence, DuBose eludes to a coverup himself (red outline) in 1991 even after handling the pictured balloon material in 1947.

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Also, how is it these Three Stooges (Marcel, DuBose, Newton) didn’t talk among themselves….with Marcel arguing that the material shown for the cameras….was not the material that he bought in….but was swapped out.

Where’s that conversation?



Imo…..if anything….by the DuBose affidavit, he sides with Marcel basically, that the true crash site material was not shown for the cameras. The balloon material was a diversion. Whereas Newton toted the party line and said it was balloon material only because that’s what he was confronted with for the cameras. Duh. Perhaps Newton got there after the balloon material was put in the room….he probably had no previous knowledge of any other material and was oblivious to the material Marcel bought back.

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

What DuBose says in that affidavit is actually in line with the findings in the 1990s though wasn't it?

He says

"The weather balloon explanation was a cover story to divert the attention of the press"...

The whole point being that even if the materials weren't classified, that Project Mogul itself was. And no one wanted the press getting any idea of it.