Roswell and Unsolved Mysteries

a reply to: peaceinoutz

You mentioned previously 12 hour long…….do you mean 2 hour long?

I don’t see anything past part 1 and 2..

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

If memory serves, that doc was very long. I think four parts, of at least 2 hours apiece.

At least 8 or 10 hours, maybe. I could be wrong, but I’ll look It up.

I remember watching that and saying to myself. Damn, another one.

It was very thorough but unconvincing.

Another Ex-CIA ufologist.

a reply to: peaceinoutz

People often seem to want this ufo tale to be true. We want excitement and intrigue; fine, that’s human nature. I don’t blame them, but we, as researchers, or whatever we are, must recognize emotion for what it is.

Searching for truth is about becoming objective; if one can reach that, you're 'half there....

Too true. If you only ever skim the surface, then you can easily be convinced. Once upon a time I was. And if you really believe, you will twist anything and everything to fit that view. People go through various mental gymnastics like someone who is in denial that their spouse is cheating on them.

The facts about Roswell were laid out in 1947. The wreckage consisted of rubber, sticks and paper and resembled a kite or balloon. Brazel would have left it alone more than likely had he not been tempted by a supposed $3,000 reward for finding a flying disc. Sheridan Cavitt, who accompanied Marcel to the ranch to retrieve the material, thought it was the remnants of a weather balloon. And that's what it was reported as a day after the initial "flying disc" news broke. There the story died for all intents and purposes until UFO entrepreneur Stan Friedman and a few others re-inflated the story in the late 70s.

Just to add that the BBC produced an unusually open-ended Roswell documentary in 1997.



It''s from 1997 but gives a hint at the end about new documents coming to light...

Hmm, that was twenty five years ago.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Fair enough, I'm busy for a few days but will come back to it.

a reply to: mirageman

Too true. If you only ever skim the surface, then you can easily be convinced. Once upon a time I was. And if you really believe, you will twist anything and everything to fit that view.

When I was a ufo surface skimmer, I read Corso’s Day After Roswell's book and got excited. Damn---this stuff is real. But after more research, the evidence is clear that it’s not justified to believe that tale. I should have known better knowing the history of microchip science.

Ros(rose-colored glasses)well and RendleSCAM are said to be the incidents’ countries’ origins most famous cases.

That's objectively ridiculous regarding Roswell, but the UK, maybe, regarding RendleSCAM. However, I'm less familiar with UK cases.

Something strange happened in RendleSCAM, but it was embellished so much as to be distorted, so out of shape, it can’t be trusted. Ros(rose-colored glasses)well, on the other hand, IMO is a wholly shaped exercise in hysteria, fraud, and confirmation-biased ufologist’s obsessive distortions. As well, I believe government disinformation abuse.

Then Ros(rose-colored glasses)well is a child of the American culture's tabloid and hysterical nature, a greedy and predatory vanity project of particular ufo grifters, and some sincere and not sincere misguided ufologists. And the credulous and superficial public.

I read somewhere that the new US gov AARO office might reopen Roswell. That would be interesting.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
Ros(rose-colored glasses)well, on the other hand, IMO is a wholly shaped exercise in hysteria, fraud, and confirmation-biased ufologist’s obsessive distortions. As well, I believe government disinformation abuse.

(snippet)

Maybe so.
Bias is one of the most significant enemies of the scientific side of ufology.
Regarding disinformation, fraud, and hysteria, remember that confusion on the part of the observer works to the advantage of the operator (in this case, the government). If the observer thinks they figured out the method behind the magic trick, nobody will believe him--they will make him look like a nut.
Not only that, but the entire UFO stage is easy to weaponize in terms of psychological operations (propaganda, manipulation, social experimentation) and special technical operations. It's not just Roswell that can be taken advantage of.
This is why, like a broken record, I keep telling UFO enthusiasts not to take "disclosure" or "truth" from Uncle Sam. Look elsewhere. It will make itself known if/when it feels it needs to, and it won't use pentagon officials as its spokespeople.

That all said, even if the entire trick was revealed, there is enough steam and emotion behind the Alien Factor that control of the subject could still be maintained. A little like spoon-bender Uri Geller when he was on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show. Uri was essentially exposed as a fraudulent psychic, but the support and belief (sound familiar?) of his loyal fans only grew. They reasoned that he must have been a real psychic even though he failed to demonstrate any of his abilities with the props Johnny's show provided (which Uri was not allowed to tamper with), because a magic trick would work every time. They twisted the logic to fit their beliefs. Uri went on to have a lucrative career. This kind of logic happens every day in Ufology.

The truth will not come from federal agencies. That will not stop the public from believing it will.

a reply to: mirageman

As I delve deeper…..

I suspect the “$3000” reward story from The Miami News is a red herring to the story of Brazel.

It is highly unlikely …imo….that Brazel would have gotten any wind of a reward to make that a motivator for his telling of his story.

The Miami News printed it’s story on July 8th one day before Brazel’s story broke on the Rosewell Daily Record on July 9th 1947.

If you read The Miami News article in its entirety, below……this story has nothing to do with Roswell to begin with….it tells of different UFO sightings and possibly Russian collusion….and a reward…nothing more other than that.



What is the likelihood that in 1947, the form of communications as they were during that time, that hardcopies of The Miami News story reached Roswell N.M. and Brazel became aware of the $3000 reward?? I suspect The Miami News was not nationwide syndicated to have had hardcopies of its newspaper at the local news shops of Rosewell, a small market for newspapers, one day before (consider the logistics of shipping time and handling) the Daily Roswell Record was released on the next day.

It states specifically in the Brazel story, below outlined in blue, published on the 9th….”The next day he first heard of the flying disks”……..well if it wasn’t The Miami News that he inconceivably knew of ….imo……..then what other stories, locally, could he have been told about, for him to think he might have pieces from a flying saucer/disk?

There had to have been another story(s), locally (small town) circulating.



I suspect Brazel had no idea that a $3000 reward was being offered and mentioned in a Miami newspaper thousands of miles away. The timing of The Miami News on the 8th and the Roswell Daily Record on the 9th being released was to close for him to have given him thoughts of a reward…..additional with all the commotion of the debris field, how could he have the time to know of The Miami News story?

I suspect that The Miami News, also did not have a radio station to do nationwide broadcasting or shortwaving of its stories either.

Independently and coincidentally ….he could have thought of a reward……but I don’t see the $3000 reward mentioned in The Miami News, being the catalyst for his thinking.

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a reply to: wavelength

The book Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe exposes what you speak of: the will or need to believe.

It’s a book in most libraries.

I expressed that in an above post: We all like intrigue and excitement. It’s all right---that’s what makes Hollywood viable.

We all want the great mystery of life eventually revealed along with such intrigue and excitement( though none of us want to be on the bad side of said excitement).

One day we may have an ultimate experience to satiate these emotional cravings, but the legitimate researcher has to balance such feelings with the need to want the unvarnished truth.

The part-time seeker or thrill seeker can afford to look superficially at these things. To them Uri Geller is relevant.

The search for any truth most of the time has to be sincere to be successful.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

It is highly unlikely …imo….that Brazel would have gotten any wind of a reward to make that a motivator for his telling of his story.

I think I read somewhere he was told about the reward. Probably from the book, I cite above. Rosweel and the will to believe. I don't have that book, it's only available as far as I know as a 27-buck hardcover. I got it from the library, but I recall it may be in that book.

I'm going to the library to grab that book again and reread some of it. I'll try to get that information there.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Yes I don't think Brazel would get a copy of the Miami News in New Mexico. That would be one hell of a paper round for someone

I was merely using it as an illustration that there was a reward being offered for the recovery of a "saucer" by the military. around that timeframe.

Brazel was told of the reward by his "neighbours" , the Proctors who lived 10 miles away.

Proctor's wife Loretta said Mack was returning her 7-year-old son Dee, who had been visiting the Foster ranch that day. He had brought a small piece of the wreckage with him to show the Proctors, who encouraged him to report it to the authorities for the $3,000 reward offered for proof of "flying disks."

NICAP - Mack Brazel Reconsidered

Just to clarify I don't think they were subscribers to the Miami News either!

a reply to: mirageman

IMO……..I suspect this is an embellishment into the story years later…. BY THOMAS J. CAREY and DONALD R. SCHMITT by researching and finding the reward story themselves. If not by them, then by someone to inflate and grow the story.

Where would the Proctor’s have heard of the $3000 reward story from way the hell east, …. in small town Roswell?

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Because it was home to the only nuclear bomber squadron in the world, perhaps?

a reply to: mirageman

Yeah….that’s humorous….

Loretta Proctor doesn’t even mention (or boast) having to tell Brazel to go for a reward….in her affidavit.

I would think she would have mentioned (gossiped) it in writing as a point of her advisement to Brazel….in the affidavit.

Loretta Proctor Affidavit

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1


If you do a web search on "Mac Brazel $3000 reward", it's mentioned frequently. But as Mac was long gone before Roswell was rebooted, I don't think we can know for absolute certain that the reward was his motivation for the trip into Roswell.

However we do know the military was offering a reward.

Since this thread is re-exploring the Roswell saga…..I will be posting Docs n Pics…from deep in my own archives. I don’t know if there legit or not. At best, I will post what is hopefully associated to the saga. Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of “source” references. Some if not all of what I have, has been seen and discussed in memoriam. Here…They will be as reference for old timers, and new for UFOlogy greenhorns 😉


To start with, what can be said about the following….



Could it be that there might have been a midair collision of a balloon train and craft causing two debris fields in two different locations?

In an older post…..I do mention this hypothesis with my rendition of the possible events in pictures, I can’t find at the moment.

But anyway…….

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

It is a genuine teletype message fromJuly 8th 1947, between the FBI’s Dallas and Cincinnati offices copied to director J. Edgar Hoover and Strategic Air Command. From the FBI Vault

They thought it was a weather balloon. But there again.

FBI DALLAS 7-8-47 6-17 PM

DIRECTOR AND SAC, CINCINNATI URGENT

FLYING DISC, INFORMATION CONCERNING. MAJOR CURTAN, HEADQUARTERS EIGHTH AIR FORCE, TELEPHONICALLY ADVISED THIS OFFICE THAT AN OBJECT PURPORTING TO BE A FLYING DISC WAS RE COVERED NEAR ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO, THIS DATE. THE DISC IS HEXAGONAL IN SHAPE AND WAS SUSPENDED FROM A BALLOON BY A CABLE, WHICH BALLOON WAS APPROXIMATELY TWENTY FEET IN DIAMETER. MAJOR CURTAN FURTHER ADVISED THAT THE OBJECT FOUND RESEMBLES A HIGH ALTITUDE WEATHER BALLOON WITH A RADAR REFLECTOR, BUT THAT TELEPHONIC CONVERSATION BETWEEN THEIR OFFICE AND WRIGHT FIELD HAD NOT xxxxxxxxxx BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF.

DISC AND BALLOON BEING TRANSPORTED TO WRIGHT FIELD BY SPECIAL PLANE FOR EXAMINATION INFORMATION PROVIDED THIS OFFICE BECAUSE OF NATIONAL INTEREST IN CASE xxxx AND FACT THAT NATIONAL BROADCASTING COMPANY, ASSOCIATED PRESS, A OTHERS ATTEMPTING TO BREAK STORY OF LOCATION OF DISC TODAY. MAJOR CURTAN ADVISED WOULD REQUEST WRIGHT FIELD TO ADVISE CINCINNATI OFFICE RESULTS OF EXAMINATION. NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION BEING CONDUCTED.

Here’s the deal on Brazel’s knowledge of a reward for proof of a saucer, according to the Roswell Will to Believe book.

A couple of days after his find on the 3rd of July, Brazel went to Corona on the 5th and, while at the town bar, told some relative and another chap about his find. They excitedly told him about all the numerous flying saucer reports in New Mexico and western states during that 4th of July weekend, accordingly hundreds of sightings since the Arnold sighting a couple of weeks before.

They told him he might have found a part of a flying saucer and he should get over to the army base and report this since rewards were offered for proof of a flying saucer.

Apparently, Brazel had no radio or newspapers in his remote place and hadn’t heard about the flying saucer craze.

The next day he rode into Roswell with some samples he called a " bunch of garbage" to report his find.
And so began this Roswell legend.

a reply to: peaceinoutz

Time for me to eat a little crow….anybody have some salt and pepper?

It turns out there was a way for folks in lil ol Roswell to know about the reward of $3000…..by way of the Los Angeles Herald and Express dated July 8th 1947!

The newspaper hangs at the Roswell museum.


However the $3000 figure was not sponsored by the military from what the article reads….but by civilians. It say’s verbatim……

….”Disc Stories Spurs Rewards Offers”….

….“Two organizations and an individual today offered rewards totaling $3000 for the capture of a “flying saucer” as “the true explanation of the phenomenon”.



I wonder who the two organizations and the individual (singular) were?

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