Lost Roman Map has ATLANTIS at Eye of Sahara Africa! (Richat Structure)

originally posted by: bluesfreak

100 blocks every 5 minutes? For a year? So you've taken a ridiculous premise and turned it into full tard. Brilliant. You can't explain how they managed ONE block every 4.5 minutes, so your answer is 100 every 5 minutes. And I'm the troll, lol. I'll take troll over stunningly brain dead any day of the week.

Harte’s brain “numbers, numbers , numbers..”
whilst forgetting he is dealing with OBJECTS that need to i be made .
A different ball game .
He can’t be serious about 100 blocks every five minutes .
Especially when he gives no explanation as to the delivery system for that . Just saying ‘multiple ramps’ means nothing . How? Was there a one way system in place?
Please explain how this would be achieved.

I’ve been in machine shops where the gaffer wants machines moved or readied for a sale.
I’ve moved a 2 tonne machine using steel rollers on a hard concrete floor with several guys all working together .
You wouldn’t believe how difficult it was .
I’ve helped with a 5 tonne machine being moved in the same manner, and that was insane . We had to move it across the shop floor and up onto a raised riser.
Steel rollers , a ramp, all kinds of straps and levers.
It took us most of the day and afterwards everyone agreed it was probably too dangerous to have done it the way we did .
The dead weight of objects in this weight range is hard to conceive unless you’ve tried it .
To get even the slightest movement of it with rollers underneath on a smooth concrete floor seemed impossible to us at first . So levers it was.
We inched this thing along the floor about 40 ft and up a ramp. The most dangerous part , even though it was strapped etc it was stupid amd crazy .
It took us over five hours I would say .

The two tonne machine was smaller but strangely as difficult. Inched along too .
I imagine levering in a two tonne block into a gap, or butting up to another block would be extremely difficult.
I don’t believe it’s something you could achieve in a matter of minutes. No way .
We had a crane too , on a gantry in the machine shop, but the gaffer said “ the old guys who got it in here didn’t have this crane “ and got the rollers out .
We didn’t have to roll it from a quarry and up a few levels of a pyramid either . a reply to:

You were doing this without good specialized tools. If I were working on something the size of the Pyramid, I would start by building exactly the tools I needed.

Rollers, sure. But I would put post holes in them, all the way around the ends, so you could stick a pole into the socket, and directly turn the roller. It would be slow going.

The problem isn't people moving 5 tons. The problem is building levers and rollers out of wood that are structurally strong enough to support 5 tons.


I believe the Egyptians had the will. I just don't know if they had the way.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

They probably used sledges and sledges are shown in later drawings as being used in that manner. Rollers work both ways.

Egyptian

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1915 Nias people

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Non Egyptian:

i.imgur.com...
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Did do some experiments with rollers - they are okay if you can get perfectly round ones and its over hard perfectly flat ground. If to soft they sink, to hard they are subject to being crushed (especially at the leading edge) and are absolutely useless on any angle up or down - irregular terrain forget it.So basically hard to use.

Sledges work great on flat ground.

On an upward slope, however, you run into a problem that it's hard to pull and/or push them in a way where you don't accidentally push/pull down on them. The guys above, pulling with cords tend to want to crouch so they're leaning away from the slope, and the guys below tend to want to push sideways for them, but that's down into the slope for your sledge.

Anyway, friction is proportional to the weight pushing down on the surface, so any portion of the force they exert that pushes the object into the slope, also causes it to grip the slope.

I think the old "row a boat" method of moving a stone uphill makes more sense. Just build your ramp so it has two ditches in it, set the stone on the center between the ditches, and then stick poles into the ditch under the stone, and gradually row it up hill. (The ditches need to be carefully spaced, so the poles have an edge to push against.)



Can't figure out how to upload pics now, because I think they changed it. So here's a link instead, to a rough pic.

i.pinimg.com...

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Sledges work great on flat ground.

On an upward slope, however, you run into a problem that it's hard to pull and/or push them in a way where you don't accidentally push/pull down on them. The guys above, pulling with cords tend to want to crouch so they're leaning away from the slope, and the guys below tend to want to push sideways for them, but that's down into the slope for your sledge.

Anyway, friction is proportional to the weight pushing down on the surface, so any portion of the force they exert that pushes the object into the slope, also causes it to grip the slope.

I think the old "row a boat" method of moving a stone uphill makes more sense. Just build your ramp so it has two ditches in it, set the stone on the center between the ditches, and then stick poles into the ditch under the stone, and gradually row it up hill. (The ditches need to be carefully spaced, so the poles have an edge to push against.)



Can't figure out how to upload pics now, because I think they changed it. So here's a link instead, to a rough pic.

i.pinimg.com...

Certainly possible but seems unlikely as no culture used that method (that I am aware of) so who used it? I would note that the Nias were dragging stuff up hill, so were the Inca - and down hill too.

The bumps left on some of the Inca megaliths have been theorized to be fulcrums for leveraging the stones along the route from the quarry by some legitimate researchers.
Not too much unlike what bloodymarvelous describes.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
The bumps left on some of the Inca megaliths have been theorized to be fulcrums for leveraging the stones along the route from the quarry by some legitimate researchers.
Not too much unlike what bloodymarvelous describes.

Harte

Yeah, I remember that now. Thanks

So, did the ancient Greeks ‘officially’ know of the Americas ? How?
Seeing as Plato mentions that beyond Atlantis were other islands that led ‘to the other continent’.
Did Plato just make that up too?

originally posted by: bluesfreak
So, did the ancient Greeks ‘officially’ know of the Americas ? How?
Seeing as Plato mentions that beyond Atlantis were other islands that led ‘to the other continent’.
Did Plato just make that up too?

This is the quote PLATO, TIMAEUS [24e-25a].

"For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travellers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvellous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent."

There are various opinions on what he actually meant: You can see them here from this selection in the Atlantipedia; Continents.Herodotus didn't seem to know about the Americas and he was after Solon but before Plato I believe.

atlantipedia.ie...

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bluesfreak
So, did the ancient Greeks ‘officially’ know of the Americas ? How?
Seeing as Plato mentions that beyond Atlantis were other islands that led ‘to the other continent’.
Did Plato just make that up too?

This is the quote PLATO, TIMAEUS [24e-25a].

"For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travellers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvellous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent."

There are various opinions on what he actually meant: You can see them here from this selection in the Atlantipedia; Continents.Herodotus didn't seem to know about the Americas and he was after Solon but before Plato I believe.

atlantipedia.ie...

I'd add that Solon hears this from an Egyptian priest, but Egyptians didn't know about the western hemisphere either.

Harte

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: IAMTAT
Someone needs to LIDAR the # out of that area.

Based on Google Earth there isn't

I understand Google Earth actually shows some structures.
Definitely there needs to be further GPR and digging in the area.

There are numerous old (possibly ancient) structures in the area. The reason is very simple. It was part of one of the many salt trade routes through North Africa at the time and there are many sources from history to back this up.

Salt was tremendously important (think oil in modern day). Who controlled the salt gained immense wealth and power.

Atlantis never existed, it is an allegory. That doesn't detract from the Richat area being very interesting.

a reply to: Hanslune

Given that Atlantis doesn't actually exist, is it not possible that Plato was simply aiming for something along the lines of:

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ...

A shame, really, that George Lucas couldn't have hired Plato as a screenwriter ...

Nice try , but I think you’ll find this is written :

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and [25] Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

.a reply to: Hansluneand was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent

Yes, and such a shame George Lucas couldn't have tied his tale to into now provable climate cataclysms too.
a reply to: Hooke

I'd add that Solon hears this from an Egyptian priest, but Egyptians didn't know about the western hemisphere either.

Well well well. What a little conundrum eh? Plato knew of a continent opposite to his own. The other side of the Atlantic.
Another brilliantly made up thing by him that turned out to be true . a reply to: Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bluesfreak
So, did the ancient Greeks ‘officially’ know of the Americas ? How?
Seeing as Plato mentions that beyond Atlantis were other islands that led ‘to the other continent’.
Did Plato just make that up too?

This is the quote PLATO, TIMAEUS [24e-25a].

"For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travellers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvellous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent."

There are various opinions on what he actually meant: You can see them here from this selection in the Atlantipedia; Continents.Herodotus didn't seem to know about the Americas and he was after Solon but before Plato I believe.

atlantipedia.ie...

I'd add that Solon hears this from an Egyptian priest, but Egyptians didn't know about the western hemisphere either.

Harte

Well that is one of the touchy little points yes.

originally posted by: Hooke
a reply to: Hanslune

Given that Atlantis doesn't actually exist, is it not possible that Plato was simply aiming for something along the lines of:

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ...

A shame, really, that George Lucas couldn't have hired Plato as a screenwriter ...

Probably, he was doing a bit of 'world building', so that his political commentary, etc would seem more interesting. There is endless discussion on the 'why' Plato wrote it and even more about what's wrong with it.

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Nice try , but I think you’ll find this is written :

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and [25] Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

.a reply to: Hansluneand was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent

Yep and did you read the link as to what that might be referring too?

Explain what he wrote in regards to the Americas in saying this: "Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."

Do the Americas surround the 'true ocean'? Are the Americas a boundless continent?

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Nice try , but I think you’ll find this is written :

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and [25] Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

.a reply to: Hansluneand was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent

Yep and did you read the link as to what that might be referring too?

Explain what he wrote in regards to the Americas in saying this: "Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."

Do the Americas surround the 'true ocean'? Are the Americas a boundless continent?

During the ice age, if the area between Cape Horn and Antarctica were frozen, then the American continent would reach all the way from the North pole to the South pole.

Would navigators know that the East and West coast of the Americas were actually East and West of each other?
Or would they think the area enclosed by it all was an ocean wholly contained within a giant outer continent that holds the water in so it won't flow off the Earth?

With all the megafauna, it might not have been safe to travel too far inland.

I really don’t need to explain anything , as Platos writing are quite clear .
He says you can reach the Americas from Atlantis, as Atlantis is in the middle of the Atlantic. From there , there are other islands you can island hop to, then reach the Americas .

The ‘other continent’ that the Ancient Greeks aren’t supposed to have known about .
Sticky little point that, indeed.

“ boundless continent” simply means
“ that place is massive “ . Which the Americas are .

If you genuinely needed that explaining then you have a real problem.
Perhaps you should take into account that Plato is describing this knowledge to others present who plainly don’t know geography .
He is explaining to fellow Greeks that the Mediterranean Sea ( their known ‘world’) is but a ‘harbour’ from the great oceans that exist .
Those present plainly do not know of the geography being described , that was given by an Egyptian priest .

The other continent , eh? Incredible guesswork Plato, old chap.
Is the ‘Other continent ‘ allegorical too?
More comedy gold.
a reply to: Hanslune

originally posted by: Hanslune


Do the Americas surround the 'true ocean'? Are the Americas a boundless continent?

Specifically what I was getting at in my above post is: If you didn't know the Earth was round. And if the Americas reached both Polar Ice Caps due to there being more ice.

A navigator might make the mistake of believing the Americas do surround the entire ocean.

Maybe they don't know that, if you travel Westward from Argentina, and climb over the Andes, you'll end up in Chile.

They just know that if you sail East from Argentina, around the bottom of Africa, and keep going, you'll eventually end up in Chile that way.


The Atlantis story doesn't need to conform to actual reality in order to be a real historical account.. It needs to conform to what the people of the time believed to be reality. Otherwise any writer of historical accounts from the Middle Ages who believed in a geocentric solar system would be writing a work of fiction.