The day after EU designates Russia a state sponsor of terrorism

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: anonentity

Yes, but if you look at the growing rhetoric, we have an evil satanic pedo elite in charge making us poorer, and restricting the energy supplies for the winter. We also have Klaus speaking like a neo nazi about eating bugs and liking it. Then over the hill comes Russia to free us all. It looks like a rock and a hard place. That's after you have had the final booster, which you didn't want or need in the first place. There are too many games afoot to make much sense of it. But the general meme is panning out that way.

Seems you mixed them all together, which they are not... Sit back, take a deep breath and in two years breath again.

I can't believe anyone would truly believe Russia is going to free us from anything and I must of missed the chapter in Mein Kampf where Hitler talked about eating bugs haha.

a reply to: Xtrozero

If you look at history and judge a country on what it has done in the past, America is a terrorist state. Remember the footage released that showed a helicopter crew shooting up some civilians, Assange is still in jail for posting that. the ME li Massacred, about a million in Iraq, and drone strikes on weddings in Afghanistan. That's what we know about plus a bit of fun torturing prisoners with the photos to prove it. As a democracy, it is as much a disgrace as everywhere else. The proof of that is what is happening to its own people, so yeah go fight a war in Ukraine, just remember you can't win them all.

a reply to: anonentity

I won’t argue that the US has been guilty of commuting war crimes, many of which probably haven’t even been made public. But imo, what Russia is doing right now is on a scale I haven’t witnessed in my life time.

They’re literally attempting to shut down Ukraines energy grid, for the sole purpose of freezing and starving the entire population.

OP follow up
November 25

On the nov 23 vote, a total of 58 parliament members voted against labeling Russia a terrorist sponsor state
Today all 58 found a poster on their door

Image Posted on Doors of European Lawmakers After Terror Vote

The image of the Russian leader shows Putin with a bloodied hand covering most of his face. The writing on the pictures says: "With my votes I support a terrorist."

twitter link to poster image


Seems like politicians are being pressured from within ...
Also worthy to add is that most of the 'no' votes came from right-wing politicians

a reply to: KindraLabelle2

Just what I'd expect from the EU; it tolerates no dissent.

I'm no Putin supporter and passionately oppose his invasion of Ukraine.
But people are entitled to their opinion and I expect politicians to show the strength of their convictions and vote according to them.

Is Russia a state sponsor of terrorism?
I'm not too sure....but what it is doing in Ukraine is wrong and in my opinion indefensible.

All the whataboutisms are simply smoke in mirrors.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: KindraLabelle2

Just what I'd expect from the EU; it tolerates no dissent.
I'm no Putin supporter and passionately oppose his invasion of Ukraine.
But people are entitled to their opinion and I expect politicians to show the strength of their convictions and vote according to them.
Is Russia a state sponsor of terrorism?
I'm not too sure....but what it is doing in Ukraine is wrong and in my opinion indefensible.

"it tolerates no dissent", Honestly, doesn't this happen everywhere? Does Russia tolerate dissent? Does China? Does the US?
it surprises me that this time it even reached the media, I think it was a Polish journalist who published the pictures on twitter. But now that it is out, I'm certain it will be used to influence voters in local politics.

I am no Russia supporter either,
but I do think that a lot of 'wrongs' happened on both sides, we just don't get to see 'our wrongs' in the media.
This whole war is f*cked up... Everything shifted, the world will never be the same as it was before

a reply to: KindraLabelle2

Does Russia tolerate dissent? Does China? Does the US?

So, we're likening the EU to Russia and China?

I don't see what practical purpose 'designating' Russia a 'state sponsor of terrorism' served anyway.
Will it help the Ukrainian people?
Will it help the Ukrainian Army defeat the Russian invaders?
Will it help bring Russia to the negotiating table with genuine intent?

Of course not.
Its typical tokenism that serves no purpose whatsoever.

....I'm certain it will be used to influence voters in local politics.

Isn't everything one way or another?

.....but I do think that a lot of 'wrongs' happened on both sides,.....

Of course....but only one side invaded with the intent of seizing control of another independent nation. A nation it had sworn to respect its borders and to NEVER invade.
Do you want us to discuss the causes of the war in this thread? It could derail it somewhat?

....we just don't get to see 'our wrongs' in the media.....

Plenty of places, maybe not MSM but alternative opinions are very, very easy to find if one cares to look...at least they are here in the UK.

This whole war is f*cked up...

Senseless, needless and pointless.

Everything shifted, the world will never be the same as it was before

The world is ever changing, always has been and always will be.

originally posted by: KindraLabelle2

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: KindraLabelle2

Just what I'd expect from the EU; it tolerates no dissent.
I'm no Putin supporter and passionately oppose his invasion of Ukraine.
But people are entitled to their opinion and I expect politicians to show the strength of their convictions and vote according to them.
Is Russia a state sponsor of terrorism?
I'm not too sure....but what it is doing in Ukraine is wrong and in my opinion indefensible.

"it tolerates no dissent", Honestly, doesn't this happen everywhere? Does Russia tolerate dissent? Does China? Does the US?
it surprises me that this time it even reached the media, I think it was a Polish journalist who published the pictures on twitter. But now that it is out, I'm certain it will be used to influence voters in local politics.

I am no Russia supporter either,
but I do think that a lot of 'wrongs' happened on both sides, we just don't get to see 'our wrongs' in the media.
This whole war is f*cked up... Everything shifted, the world will never be the same as it was before

Maybe I'm watching different media than you are but the US media is full of talking heads pointing out our wrongs and some in the media are so quick to do it they don't get the facts first. In the past 24 hours I watched maybe 10 mins of MSN and in that brief time I saw a talking head going on about how evil this country has been and is mostly in the context of the history of Thanksgiving.

a reply to: Freeborn

You said:
"Just what I'd expect from the EU; it tolerates no dissent. "

It sounded to me like you were saying that, in your opinion, the EU is the only one doing it,
I was just pointing out that it happens almost everywhere and the EU is no exception.


As for the alternative media coverage, I find it very difficult to determine which media source is still trustworthy and which ones are spreading propaganda

a reply to: nancyliedersdeaddog

I don't watch much US mainstream media anymore, not when most of it is about US politics, so I honestly have no idea how they are covering the war these days.

As for EU media, they are only covering all the bad from Russia... and all the good from Europe. And certainly in my own country, the media coverage sucks big time! they only show what suits their own agenda's.

All of the above is one of the reasons that I'm still on sites like ATS, but even here there is so much propaganda leaking through. Hard to figure out what is truth and what are lies....

a reply to: KindraLabelle2

We'll probably never know the full truth, and what truth comes out may take years or even decades. Nature of wars and national security games.

Look at how long it took for the ULTRA secret to be revealed after the Second World War.

Cheers

a reply to: KindraLabelle2

Certainly not the only one.
But the EU really doesn't like anyone from within its own ranks not toeing the official line.
It really likes to project this One Europe, One Vision image.....and its simply not reflective of the realities of what people feel.

The EU is supposed to be a democratic organisation, as such its elected members can express whatever feeling they choose.
Russia and China are hardly 'democratic'.
Likening the EU to those two is really quite telling.

Its hard to say what is propaganda and what isn't.
I guess each of us just have to rely on our own judgement best we can.

At least we have the advantage of knowing most of what we see, read or hear is propaganda or biased towards one perspective or another.
The majority of people are oblivious to it all and just believe whatever narrative they are exposed to.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: anonentity

I won’t argue that the US has been guilty of commuting war crimes, many of which probably haven’t even been made public. But imo, what Russia is doing right now is on a scale I haven’t witnessed in my life time.

They’re literally attempting to shut down Ukraines energy grid, for the sole purpose of freezing and starving the entire population.

That has happened in every conflict from WW2. Go in and destroy the Country's infastructure. Russia only started hitting Ukraine's energy infastructure after the Nordstream pipes were attacked and the Kerch bridge was blown up.

originally posted by: JAY1980
Stupid threads like this make me want to flood the threads with Ukranian nazis committing war crimes. But unlike the OP I realize spreading this kind of BS does nothing but escalate this conflict...

I wonder how many of the articles listed un the OP are legitimate. Seeing as 90% of what we in the west hear about the conflict is propaganda...

OP was well formatted, contained multiple sources, and the author of the thread was calm about how they presented it.

Your response was hyperbolic, didn’t provide meaningful counter arguments, and it was rude.

I want more of what OP is offering as I see it more beneficial for the site. I don’t even mind if someone is presenting something I disagree with as long as it’s well formatted and sourced. Better than the one paragraph hit and runs that are seething.

originally posted by: anonentity

If you look at history and judge a country on what it has done in the past, America is a terrorist state. Remember the footage released that showed a helicopter crew shooting up some civilians, Assange is still in jail for posting that. the ME li Massacred, about a million in Iraq, and drone strikes on weddings in Afghanistan. That's what we know about plus a bit of fun torturing prisoners with the photos to prove it. As a democracy, it is as much a disgrace as everywhere else. The proof of that is what is happening to its own people, so yeah go fight a war in Ukraine, just remember you can't win them all.

Most of your points are not really points, the helo wasn't a war objective as in kill all civilians indiscriminately as Russia seems to do in Ukraine. America didn't kill a million in Iraq...the was like a 2 week was followed by rebuild. The vast majority of deaths was from Iraqis killing each other as the Shiites and Sunnis when on a mass killing spree of each other once Saddam was removed. I was there right in the middle of it all to give you a first hand account.

After 20+ years of fighting you can drag up whatever, but Russia and China have been worst. I also didn't call either a terrorist group and your post above doesn't fit the post your are referring too...lol The big difference is with Russia and China there is no photos or videos, no news as they do not allow it and see their practices not as mistakes that end up being highlighted, but normal operations, and so nothing to talk about or photo. How many have died so far in Ukraine on both sides? How many villages has Russia wiped off the map, how many will die because Russia wants to ensure the country gets no heat this winter? So on and so forth. You talk about the F'd up mistake of a helo crew, but that is like a daily occurrence to Russia we would never see or hear about.

But none of this above or your reply has anything to do with my original pose, so back to what the hell are you talking about when you suggest Russia is protecting its state.

Here is what I wrote...

Worst case scenario is Russia leaves Ukraine and takes the lost. There is no invasion of Russia, no attack on the homeland, so please explain what the hell are you talking about.

Russia is not protecting crap, that are trying to take, see the difference?

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

I won’t argue that the US has been guilty of commuting war crimes, many of which probably haven’t even been made public. But imo, what Russia is doing right now is on a scale I haven’t witnessed in my life time.

They’re literally attempting to shut down Ukraines energy grid, for the sole purpose of freezing and starving the entire population.

I also do not know why people are seemingly suggesting that if America was in Iraq and Afghanistan then that justifies Russia to do whatever they want in Ukraine or any other country. Its like suggesting because China put 2 million people in concentration camp then it is OK for anyone else to do the same now...lol geez

I had some people go back to the 1800s America to suggest Russia is in their rights... crazy

We are talking about the here and now of what Russia is doing not what America, or the USSR of old, or China etc all did in the past, it is what Russia is doing to day...

a reply to: Xtrozero

But the fact still remains the actual people that live in the Donbas speak Russian and wants to be Russian and voted to join the Federation. The reasons are that the pensions get paid and the roads get tarmacked, they get subsidized heating and reasonable rents.The alternative is the western system where you have the alternative of the streets if you can't pay your rent, it is that simple, not some ideological faith in some stupid "Ism"If you can prove that the vote was rigged, anything else is BS Crimea was happy and thriving.

a reply to: anonentity

If it was actually all that bliss being ruled by Russia, then the Soviet Union would’ve never collapsed.

The fact that you can get 15 years in prison just for protesting against the government in Russia should be the first sign that causes concern.

I mean sure, from what I’ve heard they have a robust welfare system. But I mean, it’s a country of over 140 million, with a gdp the same as Canada… no way they can in reality afford to be taking good care of all the people they have now, let alone the regions they’re trying to take by force in Ukraine.

I’m extremely skeptical that it’s all rainbows and lollipops living under Russian rule.

a reply to: anonentity

That might be true now that millions have been displaced from where their ancestors have lived for literally hundreds of years.

As I have pointed out several times now prior to the invasion 58% of people in both Luhansk and Donetsk were or Ukrainian origin whereas 38% were of Russian extract.

And are you really trying to suggest that the 'referendums' should be taken seriously?

a reply to: Freeborn

No you are the one saying it shouldn't be taken seriously. I am pointing out that the average person is not interested in who the government is, as long as it works and is not a burden. Everywhere America has spread its freedom to is now in some state of chaos. Even in America if you can't see there is something fundamentally wrong here the conversation is pointless.