New Japan history textbook. Watch out!!!

Sorry Bill, but i wont accept the 'you dont live there so your wrong' idea. We had the same conversation at the start of this thread so just go back and look please.

And i can get lots of things through my 'thick skull' one of them being that this book should not have been written.

I know that it makes up less than 2% of all Japanese schools etc etc. That doesnt make it right. If it becomes acceptable to apologise for these atrocities in a small way then in the future it may get worse.

If a stand isn't taken now then some other nut job may take this even further. This nonsense should stop before it gets an worse.

I'm not going to resort to calling anyone thick-skulled, but I will say that I don't think the self-hatred that Germany has gone through is necessary. You don't have to renounce your since of nationalism or pride to be sorry for doing wrong. Germany chose to give up on nationalism, but that's just Germany for you. Historically they aren't particularly warlike people (which is easily understandable since their geography has not exactly worked in their favor for most of their history). Prussians aside, my understanding is that most Germans have never cared much for the outside world- not even up to the national level. So renouncing nationalism came easy to them culturally. They didn't have to though. They still have a perfectly legitimate right to have their national pride and even to be aggressive about their national interests when justified. So does Japan.
Their duty is to acknowledge what they have done and to teach their future generations to renounce such attrocious acts. They are not meeting this duty, so I have no argument there. I just don't think that it's fair to say they ought to do specifically what Germany has done.

It also has to be remembered (and this isn't an excuse, but it is the reason) that Japan's society embraces what you might call a meritocracy. You have to EARN their respect. This is going to make it somewhat difficult for their society to be taught to respect the human rights of defeated enemies. They need to try harder, but I think it's clear why they haven't done quite the same thing Germany has.

Uncle Joe,

The reasons for my asking the questions were not the ones you allude to.

So if you could please answer the questions.

Cheers

BHR

Well Bill. As i already said i have answered this question before. If you would care to look back to the first page of this thread...

But since you dont want to.

Im from sunny England. With its rolling countryside and glorious ways

And i still dont see what geographic location has to do with this.

Uncle Joe,

Where you come from is really rather important when you consider the atrocities carried out by the English on dozens of nations around the world to which no apology has ever been made.

You expect the Japanese to conform to a higher standard than that of your own country.

We have a word for that where I live - HYPOCRITE.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by The Vagabond
They still have a perfectly legitimate right to have their national pride and even to be aggressive about their national interests when justified. So does Japan.
Their duty is to acknowledge what they have done and to teach their future generations to renounce such attrocious acts. They are not meeting this duty

How so? How are they not meeting their 'duty' as it were, according to you? They have renounced any military or colonial aspirations they might have had and dedicated themselves to peace. Much more than can be said about most western cultures!!!!!!

It also has to be remembered (and this isn't an excuse, but it is the reason) that Japan's society embraces what you might call a meritocracy. You have to EARN their respect. This is going to make it somewhat difficult for their society to be taught to respect the human rights of defeated enemies. They need to try harder, but I think it's clear why they haven't done quite the same thing Germany has.

What a load of horse-s@@t!!!!!

There society is based on getting along with everyone, despite the personal costs!! Yes, you have to earn their respect, but this could be said of ANY race on the planet. They RESPECT human rights. I could tell you of half a dozen WESTERN races who, in their fauning superiority complexes, choose not to admit their own lack of respect of human rights.....Gauntanamo anyone? depleted uraniaum munitions? etc. etc.

What has Japan done recently (i.e. since the end of WWII...which IMHO they were thoroughly justified to do the things they did) that garners such hatred.

NOTHING!!!

It is all western propganda deflecting the public attention from the TRUE purveyours of human rights violations and abuses!!!

Answer me this!!!

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy

Originally posted by The Vagabond
They still have a perfectly legitimate right to have their national pride and even to be aggressive about their national interests when justified. So does Japan.
Their duty is to acknowledge what they have done and to teach their future generations to renounce such attrocious acts. They are not meeting this duty

How so? How are they not meeting their 'duty' as it were, according to you? They have renounced any military or colonial aspirations they might have had and dedicated themselves to peace. Much more than can be said about most western cultures!!!!!!

I think I made it perfectly clear, but since you missed it I'll recap. Japan has a moral obligation to incorporate into their educational material on this subject an honest representation of the war crimes that were committed and a lesson that such things are unacceptable. I've been the one saying that they don't have to be too ashamed of it and don't have to overly humble themselves, but we're talking about rape and murder as an official institution being written off as "some inappropriate killing". How about owning up to their responsibility to educate their children by replacing that phrase with "unacceptable war crimes, including rape and murder of civilians". The lesson doesn't have to be dedicate to bashing Japan but it should certainly aim to educate future generations of Japanese people against such things.

It also has to be remembered (and this isn't an excuse, but it is the reason) that Japan's society embraces what you might call a meritocracy. You have to EARN their respect. This is going to make it somewhat difficult for their society to be taught to respect the human rights of defeated enemies. They need to try harder, but I think it's clear why they haven't done quite the same thing Germany has.

What a load of horse-s@@t!!!!!

There society is based on getting along with everyone, despite the personal costs!! Yes, you have to earn their respect, but this could be said of ANY race on the planet. They RESPECT human rights. I could tell you of half a dozen WESTERN races who, in their fauning superiority complexes, choose not to admit their own lack of respect of human rights.....Gauntanamo anyone? depleted uraniaum munitions? etc. etc.

You apparently think I'm attacking Japan, so I immediately suspect that you have not read the thread thoroughly. At any rate this has nothing to do with the superiority complexes of western nations (key word nations- it's not a racial issue.) What this has to do with is the historical fact that the Japanese regarded surrendering enemies and conquered civilians as completely undeserving of any mercy or human rights, resulting in a staggering number of war crimes. The cultural influences which contributed to this are indeed and obstacle and are something that must be taken into account when designing a curriculum intended to educate Japanese students so that they will not repeat yesterday's mistakes.

How rich it is that you can try to change the subject by raising Guantanimo (i don't blame you- it's always easiest to throw mud) but you don't counter the FACT which you called "horse s@@t". It is A FACT that the cultural ideals which were highly promoted especially during WWII gave the Japanese no sympathy or respect for the rights of those who came under their control rather than dying in battle or committing suicide upon defeat.

What has Japan done recently (i.e. since the end of WWII...which IMHO they were thoroughly justified to do the things they did) that garners such hatred.

What hatred? What have I said that expresses hatred for Japan? I don't have to hate somebody to voice my opinion that they have a moral obligation to educate their children about how to respect people's human rights, especially when it is supremely relevant to an issue being discussed in class yet is allowed to go almost unmentioned.
I don't know where you get the idea that I hate them. Truth is that if I were calling the shots America would be arming them to the teeth and trying to make them mean again. Their a strong and capable nation and dang good people to have on your side- especially when you've got issues with China North Korea, and Russia.

NOTHING!!!

It is all western propganda deflecting the public attention from the TRUE purveyours of human rights violations and abuses!!!

Answer me this!!!

The west didn't even raise this issue. It's the rest of Asia that is really upset with Japan over this textbook. As for the "true purveyors of human rights abuse" I can only assume that you mean people. There is no one group behind it. The single greatest threat to people on this planet is other people- hardly anyone is playing fair with anyone else. Your poorly thought out attempt to riposte against America when you haven't been attacked to begin with shows a tremendous bias. I understand the bias, but I don't understand the relevance to this discussion. All I can guess is that you either have grossly misunderstood my point or else that you are way way too emotionally sensitive to be hanging out on PTS. Don't go shooting your mouth off if your cerebral magazine is not fully loaded.

[edit on 8-5-2005 by The Vagabond]

Thank you for your eloquent reply. I will try and cut down on the caps and exclamation points so as not to appear too over-emotional.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

I think I made it perfectly clear, but since you missed it I'll recap. Japan has a moral obligation to incorporate into their educational material on this subject....yada yada...

And as I thought I had made abundantly clear in previous posts, they already do these things. They have been doing these things for decades.

The have apoligised on no less than 17 occasions and paid massive amounts in reperations. What more do the people of Asia need? What have the Japanese done since that warrents any kind of fear? What have they done to show that they haven't learned their lesson. When was the last atrocity comitted by Japan?

So a bunch of right wing ultra nationalist nut jobs self publish an incredibly biased history book which the Japanese as a whole are quite ashamed of and choose not to use in the overwhelming majority of their schools. Have you seen a standard History text in Japan? I have. They pull no punches about their past and state quite clearly what atrocities have been commited. The picture of the Japanese officer laughing as he beheads a chinese POW features quite often. Ouch. The shame they must feel every time they see that.

Ask any Japanese person what their country did in the war and I doubt you will get any reaction but shame and an affirmation never to go to war again. The common statement I hear is "We're not like that anymore. We want peace."

You apparently think I'm attacking Japan, so I immediately suspect that you have not read the thread thoroughly.

Eh, no. I don't think you are attacking Japan. I have actually read all the threads/posts about this topic. You do make some interesting points. I will concede that their military behaviour during the war was horrific. No excuses there. They were dragged from a 200 year period of isolation, so effectively a medieval feudal society was suddenly thrust on the industrial-age world. The results were bloody and inexcusable.

However, they should be commended on growing up so much since the war and really turning their society around in such a short time.

How rich it is that you can try to change the subject by raising Guantanimo (i don't blame you- it's always easiest to throw mud)

Okay, the pot calling the kettle black never solved or absolved anything. The point being made is, as I stated above, the rest of the world has been involved in abusing the human rights of other countries since WWII, but Japan has spent the time walking the walk and not just talking the talk.

What has Japan done recently (i.e. since the end of WWII...which IMHO they were thoroughly justified to do the things they did) that garners such hatred.

What hatred? What have I said that expresses hatred for Japan?

I think I was referring to the protests in China recently. Don't remember saying you specifically. However, if you are american, than perhaps what I said either pricked a guilty conscience or you are the one who is eh, slightly over emotional!!

Your poorly thought out attempt to riposte against America when you haven't been attacked to begin with shows a tremendous bias. I understand the bias, but I don't understand the relevance to this discussion.

To reiterate, I just used the recent examples of American human rights abuse to illustrate the point that Japan has learned from their lessons and has respected human rights since WWII. I could just have easily started talking about Tianeman square, Tibet or a myriad of other countries human rights abuses. Sorry if it was a sore point for you.

Don't go shooting your mouth off if your cerebral magazine is not fully loaded.
[edit on 8-5-2005 by The Vagabond]

No complaint here. I can be a bit stoopid at times. Just threw this quote up as I loved your choice of words!!!!

Ta Bill, now im a hypocrite because i didnt explicitly condemn the nast things the Empire did in its heyday? In a thread about a Japanese textbook and the attendant atrocities?

Interesting. But never mind, as i have already said i think this book is wrong because it could well be the first trickle of water through the dam of historical revisionism.

UJ,

I am not saying that the publication of this text is right or should be continued. However, should you wish to do something about historical inaccuracies in schools, why not do something at home?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
And as I thought I had made abundantly clear in previous posts, they already do these things. They have been doing these things for decades.

The have apoligised on no less than 17 occasions and paid massive amounts in reperations. What more do the people of Asia need? What have the Japanese done since that warrents any kind of fear? What have they done to show that they haven't learned their lesson. When was the last atrocity comitted by Japan?

I was with you on that point actually. My second post on the first page, in reply to redhare, pretty well summed up my position I think. I see why Japan's neighbors would be concerned, but Japan has done enough with respect to direct action towards them.
What really concerns me has a little less to do with the other Asian nations and more to do with Japan's own future. Political obligations aside, they have a moral one to make an effort, at least in passing when the subject comes up in their textbooks, to educate their youth about the past with regard to war crimes so that it is not repeated.
Perhaps we could compare it to Vietnam. It would be a mistake for American textbooks to address Vietnam without mentioning the tremendous stress it put on our nation, not to mention events such as Mai Lai. If we glossed over those things in our textbooks how can our children have any preparation to make an enlightened decision if their generation is faced with the opportunity to repeat those mistakes?

It's a minor issue I'll grant. It's not as if Japan is utterly doomed to rape and murder their neighbors if this doesn't get into the textbooks. It certainly wouldn't hurt anybody though if their textbooks touched on those subjects without otherwise casting unreasonable dispersions on their nation (because I realize that Japanese history will naturally be taught from a Japanese point of view).

So a bunch of right wing ultra nationalist nut jobs self publish an incredibly biased history book which the Japanese as a whole are quite ashamed of and choose not to use in the overwhelming majority of their schools. Have you seen a standard History text in Japan? I have. They pull no punches about their past and state quite clearly what atrocities have been commited. The picture of the Japanese officer laughing as he beheads a chinese POW features quite often. Ouch. The shame they must feel every time they see that.

That's a very interesting piece of information. I'm glad you bring it up. It further diminishes the importance of the issue because it shows that most Japanese students are getting the facts they need to address such questions if they should arise again. It does raise the question however of why a few Japanese schools would adopt a book which glosses over a part of history which has widely been seen as noteworthy. As time goes on I can see why textbooks will shorten the mention of that aspect to make room for additional or more relevant material, but however short the mention is it just seems a little silly that a minority viewpoint would be allowed to prevail in schoolbooks and gloss over widespread warcrimes as "some inappropriate killing".

Ask any Japanese person what their country did in the war and I doubt you will get any reaction but shame and an affirmation never to go to war again. The common statement I hear is "We're not like that anymore. We want peace."

I'm not too familiar with Japanese society but that's nice to hear for the most part. Actually I'd be perfectly OK with Japan opening itself up to military options in foreign policy. As long as they don't revisit that horrible misadventure, which if you're right they have no intention of doing, then god bless 'em. All the more reason though to believe that the way they educate their children about that part of history has been beneficial and probably should not be changed in the way that this new textbook attempts.

However, they should be commended on growing up so much since the war and really turning their society around in such a short time.

Strongly agreed. The more I learn in this thread the more I become convinced that while the textbook is no real cause for alarm it is a mistake worthy of being quietly corrected, precisely because their current point of view has helped them to lead head-long into the 21st century.

Okay, the pot calling the kettle black never solved or absolved anything. The point being made is, as I stated above, the rest of the world has been involved in abusing the human rights of other countries since WWII, but Japan has spent the time walking the walk and not just talking the talk.

Again I agree.

What hatred? What have I said that expresses hatred for Japan?

I think I was referring to the protests in China recently. Don't remember saying you specifically. However, if you are american, than perhaps what I said either pricked a guilty conscience or you are the one who is eh, slightly over emotional!!

As you posted in response to my post it seemed to be implied that the comment was aimed at me. My mistake though. As far as a guilty conscience goes, I've got less of a conscience than you might suspect, otherwise you might have been right on that.

To reiterate, I just used the recent examples of American human rights abuse to illustrate the point that Japan has learned from their lessons and has respected human rights since WWII. I could just have easily started talking about Tianeman square, Tibet or a myriad of other countries human rights abuses. Sorry if it was a sore point for you.

And I'm sorry if I have misinterpreted your post and counter-attacked when I had not actually been attacked. (Ironic that it was precisely that which I believed you to be doing).

Don't go shooting your mouth off if your cerebral magazine is not fully loaded.
[edit on 8-5-2005 by The Vagabond]

No complaint here. I can be a bit stoopid at times. Just threw this quote up as I loved your choice of words!!!!

You and me both, in regards both to occasional stupidity and enjoyment of interesting phrasings
Glad to see that you and I apparently have some common ground and were not in any actual quarrel, only a misunderstanding.
(forgive me for not spell-checking. I don't have one for firefox yet)

All very well talking about History texts that are barely used. No threat to the outside world there.

How about talking about the use of certain views in their High School English langauge texts?

From what I have been told and seen for myself, there is a disproportionate amount of "Blame Whitey" type literature in there. For instance, classes are made to repeat after the native langauge teacher, sentences read from the text. A teacher I know tells of such juicy issues of how white man killed the indians and took their land, or how the white man kept down the black man as being talked of extensively.

Now, the white race can hardly call foul, but still, having kids being taught that "The white man only knows hatred" is a little rich coming from a nation which is slow at airing their own dirty laundry.

The point, in relation to this topic is, if a nation is that insular and bigoted then they aren't shifting off their own island for a while. While they may not have colonial ambitions or any desire to make war with their neighbours, a dangerous mind-set is still being introduced here.

It is all very well to point out your own failings and admit your past mistakes, it is another to take responsibility for it and stop blaming the white race, however culpable they are.

Well said. You seem to know quite a bit more about Japan than I do and I find some of what you bring up to be quite interesting.

I can't help wondering just how long Japan will be pacifist though. They do have minor territorial disputes with Russia, China, and I think South Korea (I mentioned these earlier when they were fresh in my mind). Nothing particularly worth fighting for as far as I know, but what would you think the odds are of them non-militarily trying to assert greater control over claimed islands and finding themselves at odds with a rival by miscalculation?

Another thing I can't help wondering is if they might eventually get the idea of moving into Indonesia by way of the Phillipines. Shallow seas generally mean a good chance for off shore oil development (or am I mistaken?) and Japan may eventually decide that they are sick of America having them by the balls over oil. Again I'm not perfectly informed but didn't we basically use Alaskan oil to twist their arm into sending a token force to Iraq? So what if a really convenient war came along- for instance if Islamic rebels (perhaps with covert aid from Japan) gained control of Indonesia or part of it's territory, then and Japan saw the opportunity to make a "temporary" under the guise of putting down a threat to regional security? Am I way off base, or would it at least be theoretically possible? I recall Caspar Weinberger (Reagan's Secretary of Defense) bringing up the possibility of renewed Japanese expansionism in the near future in the book The Next War so it's a prospect that interests me a bit.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
You seem to know quite a bit more about Japan than I do

Not really, they are a bit complicated as a race. You understand what a paradox is? That is the best description I can give their race. Thanks for the vote of confidence anyhow!!!!

I can't help wondering just how long Japan will be pacifist though. They do have minor territorial disputes with Russia, China, and I think South Korea

I doubt we will ever see a return to an overt military control of the region by the Japanese. Saying that, a covert control system, if not in place already as I suspect, is more likely. Anyone interested should research the current dealings of the kenpeitai. These guys were the secret police during WWII and have been up to a lot of different shenanigans since.

The China East sea carry on (which I believe to be the root cause of the current whinging and saber rattling - nothing to do with obscure textbooks) is probably the most likely flashpoint at the minute. Though, the countries have so much invested in each other, I wouldn't be too worried about anything other than slinging words rather than bombs.

The disputes with Russia are not so hot really. Fishing areas and frozen islands. Interestingly enough, Japan and Russia have never actually reached any form of peace agreement since WWII.

As for South Korea? Sorry, I am slightly ignorant on the subject. Maybe you could direct me towards some information in that regard. North Korea - oh boy - plenty of shenanigans there. Between the drug running to the NW coast of Japan to the spies flitting in and out of the country, they are always at some carry on.

what would you think the odds are of them non-militarily trying to assert greater control over claimed islands and finding themselves at odds with a rival by miscalculation?

Softly, softly catchee monkey. These guys are extremely cautious. A Japanese person do something rash? Doubtful. Any trouble and they will reach a deal which doesn't see either side lose face behind the scenes. On the Asian side of things at least. Us rash and loud foreigners on the other hand - pish - no figuring us out, but no area where their would be conflict.

Another thing I can't help wondering is if they might eventually get the idea of moving into Indonesia by way of the Phillipines. Shallow seas generally mean a good chance for off shore oil development (or am I mistaken?)

Never thought too much about this. I will have to look into it. There is a big connection with the Phillipines here. A lot of development aid cash has flowed in that direction and I think they may be expecting somebody to return the favour. I have no doubt that the kenpeitai have a few bodies on the ground down there. But anything that may step on American toes?

Japan may eventually decide that they are sick of America having them by the balls over oil.

Now this is interesting.

IMHO it has nothing to do with oil. There is a big drive on in Japan at the minute to veer away from oil dependance. Hybrid cars, solar energy, biodiesel, domestic gas turbines for electricity, magnetic generators, all big things here. They are using technology to wean themselves off oil dependance. They are socially pliant enough as a society to do it as well.

They are none too happy about being dragged into Iraq. Ask any Japanese person and they will talk though gritted teeth about being "America's dog". I would love to know what it is that the Americans have on them.

I did hear an interesting tale about a Japanese company getting a contract to recycle all the blown up Tanks in Iraq. Vagabond, you seem to have some knowledge about tanks, is that really economically viable? Enough to
send, unprecedented, a military force abroad to protect the workers?

So what if a really convenient war came along- for instance if Islamic rebels (perhaps with covert aid from Japan) gained control of Indonesia

Interestingly, I have seen a marked increase in muslims coming to the country. Hmmmmm.

Japan saw the opportunity to make a "temporary" under the guise of putting down a threat to regional security? Am I way off base, or would it at least be theoretically possible?

If they are on the security council and see it as their duty to help secure the area, it would be very plausible. Remember the kenpeitai? We may be seeing the dominos being set up here. Factor in China's recent belligerence and you could say the Chinese had got a whiff of it and decided to focus world attention here for a while. Interesting theory.

I recall Caspar Weinberger (Reagan's Secretary of Defense) bringing up the possibility of renewed Japanese expansionism in the near future in the book The Next War so it's a prospect that interests me a bit.

Back in the day when they didn't have an enemy to justify military spending, before the bright idea of the terrorist boogeyman, perhaps.

If the Japanese were to do it, it would be covert. I will leave you with a real paranoia buzz. What if the bubble economy of the 80's didn't really burst? What if it was a switch from overt to covert control and ownership? They are not poor, they still hold billions of foreign currencies across the world.........

EDIT: Screwed up the quotes. Fixed.

[edit on 11-5-2005 by howmuchisthedoggy]

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
As for South Korea? Sorry, I am slightly ignorant on the subject. Maybe you could direct me towards some information in that regard. North Korea - oh boy - plenty of shenanigans there. Between the drug running to the NW coast of Japan to the spies flitting in and out of the country, they are always at some carry on.

I thought I'd posted this earlier but I didn't see it. I'll reply to this tomorrow when I have time to dig into wikipedia. I have to wake up in 6 hours.

what would you think the odds are of them non-militarily trying to assert greater control over claimed islands and finding themselves at odds with a rival by miscalculation?

Softly, softly catchee monkey. These guys are extremely cautious. A Japanese person do something rash? Doubtful. Any trouble and they will reach a deal which doesn't see either side lose face behind the scenes. On the Asian side of things at least. Us rash and loud foreigners on the other hand - pish - no figuring us out, but no area where their would be conflict.

I'll take you word for it, but that would certainly represent a change in policy since Pearl Harbor as far as not doing anything rash. I did miss the big question though. What if America provokes North Korea into hitting our bases in Japan? Long term Japanese policy shift as a reaction maybe?

Never thought too much about this. I will have to look into it. There is a big connection with the Phillipines here. A lot of development aid cash has flowed in that direction and I think they may be expecting somebody to return the favour. I have no doubt that the kenpeitai have a few bodies on the ground down there. But anything that may step on American toes?

They'd need a great excuse or a big back-room deal with us. I don't know what our ties to the phillipines are exactly but they are the ones who let us send troops onto their soil in direct violation of their constitution to fight Abu Sayaff, aren't they? Back in 96 Weinberger considered it a given that we would defend PI, but he didn't account for the possibility that they might strike a backroom deal with us. If extremists should fortuitously gain control of a the PI and attack Japanese interests while America is all wrapped up in the mid east it would be a perfect war for Japan. Light-infantry intensive- even their small forces could quickly rise to the occasion I believe. Next thing you know they've got a gateway to Indonesia, they're turning out the weapons they need, and maybe they've even got our help?
It's a really out-there proposition, but you never know when Americans get involved.

Japan may eventually decide that they are sick of America having them by the balls over oil.

Now this is interesting.

IMHO it has nothing to do with oil. There is a big drive on in Japan at the minute to veer away from oil dependance. Hybrid cars, solar energy, biodiesel, domestic gas turbines for electricity, magnetic generators, all big things here. They are using technology to wean themselves off oil dependance. They are socially pliant enough as a society to do it as well.

They are none too happy about being dragged into Iraq. Ask any Japanese person and they will talk though gritted teeth about being "America's dog". I would love to know what it is that the Americans have on them.

I did hear an interesting tale about a Japanese company getting a contract to recycle all the blown up Tanks in Iraq. Vagabond, you seem to have some knowledge about tanks, is that really economically viable? Enough to
send, unprecedented, a military force abroad to protect the workers?

American ones or Iraqi? The Iraqi tanks might be pretty dang lucrative, and also a nice back-door to remilitarization. Suppose that Japan scraps together a couple of hundred T-72s that nobody knows about and upgrades them with modern equipment? What's that worth in sheer surprise value if they have to go to war?

Wanting to get off of oil is another interesting issue. It takes oil to replace oil. You have to build all sorts of new infrastructure, which requires an intitial investment in production, powered by oil. To economically make the shift they need a rape war, just like we have in Iraq, and they can siphon off a little on the sly for covert infrastructure upgrade projects.

I recall Caspar Weinberger (Reagan's Secretary of Defense) bringing up the possibility of renewed Japanese expansionism in the near future in the book The Next War so it's a prospect that interests me a bit.

Back in the day when they didn't have an enemy to justify military spending, before the bright idea of the terrorist boogeyman, perhaps.

I have to say, some of the scenarios were very plausible, and are in the works now. 5 scenarios were laid out.
Three of them have developed into clear and present dangers- North Korean nukes, Iranian nukes, and Russian communist ressurgence with a race to missile defense technology.
The fourth is concievably possible, although the defeat of PRI a few years back did sort of change things- an immigration war as a result of civil unrest in Mexico. The "Zetas" in Mexico do now control sections of the border and have attacked law enforcement in Texas. This is by no means a failed prediction yet.
The last was Japanese aggression against the PI.

If the Japanese were to do it, it would be covert. I will leave you with a real paranoia buzz. What if the bubble economy of the 80's didn't really burst? What if it was a switch from overt to covert control and ownership? They are not poor, they still hold billions of foreign currencies across the world.........
[edit on 11-5-2005 by howmuchisthedoggy]

I tink that would be more interesting if I were better versed in economics, but I think I get where you're going and it is interesting. So here's the question: what currencies are they investing in? Wouldn't a major blow to America be good for the Euro, as it might finally push commodities pricing into Euro instead of Dollars?

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I'll take you word for it, but that would certainly represent a change in policy since Pearl Harbor as far as not doing anything rash.

Not going to get into this in great detail with you, different topic for a different thread. However, I wouldn't describe the Japanese action of a surprise attack on Pearl Harbour as "rash". It was a well planned and measured response to oil embargos and bully-boy colonism in S.E. Asia by western powers.

That's my 2 cents about that!

I did miss the big question though. What if America provokes North Korea into hitting our bases in Japan? Long term Japanese policy shift as a reaction maybe?

Very valid. Note the recent fluttering hearts in Japan re: the upswing in N. Korea nuclear testing. Not too happy about that myself, considering my proximity to said U.S. air bases.

American ones or Iraqi?

Iraqi as far as I know. Recycling as in melted down. Though the idea of "recycling" that you mentioned is very interesting, I couldn't see it happen. Think of the radiation in those tank hulls from DU rounds. Not very safe methinks.

Wanting to get off of oil is another interesting issue. It takes oil to replace oil. You have to build all sorts of new infrastructure, which requires an intitial investment in production, powered by oil.

True, but most of the initiatives being used work on existing infrastructure. The hybrid cars will lead in a decreased use of oil. They are building the same amount of cars, just some of them are hybrid now. The moving of the sub 1 litre engine K-cars to a purely solar power source is also very exiting. Just take all the existing ones and smack solar panels on top.

Dear all,

As a matter of interest in Japan/North Korea relations, the Japanese are spending vast sums of money on missile defense technology and ships to put it on.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by ufo3
U would have to be [wrong -nygdan] to call the japanese cowards! They are anything but that, u should read up on how important honor is in Japan.

Raping and killing children is wrong. Absolutely no honor seen in Chiangi, the Burma Railway, Nanking, infecting people with anthrax, genocide & starvation - etc.

There might be some honour in admitting past mistakes but denying history is the act of a cowardly, bully nation. Honour my ****

Until you own up and apologise I don't think you'll ever be trusted certainly in the UK

Originally posted by CTID56092

Until you own up and apologise I don't think you'll ever be trusted certainly in the UK

We are still waiting in Ireland for your apology for 700 years of oppression and ethnic cleansing. I am sure there are a lot of other countries, even in Asia, that would also appreciate an apology from the UK.

I think you'll find we've apologised for pretty much every thing we've done (and some we haven't - Jack Straw apologising for the Dutch Army assisting in genocide! WTF??).

Has the US apologised to the Indians, the Phillipines, Cuba etc etc?? I think not! Have they apologised for NORAID? Have NORAID contributors apologised for their funding of terrorism & murder? NO they haven't.

As I say think we've acknowledged our past as has Germany, Japan seems unwilling or unable to acknowledge its brutal racist evil past and yet want to participate as a civilised nation at the big table. They should own up, say sorry, admit wrong and let's all get on with life.