New Japan history textbook. Watch out!!!

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Redhare,

Hating a race for the fact that they are that race is racism.

You can delude yourself by calling in "nationalism" but the rest of us know the truth.

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 6-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]

I specifically asked you to think before you reply. What dictionary in the world are you using? Since when did Japanese become a race? Your depth of knowledge baffles me.

PS. rest of you and who? I hope its not your imaginary friend? I dont think he/she can handle the truth...

[edit on 6-4-2005 by RedHare]

Redhare,

"Racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race or nationality are intrinsically superior to members of other races or nationalities 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race or nationality [syn: racialism, racial discrimination]"

Good enough for you?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by RedHare
This is what I called manipuilation. Where did I say that I support Chinese government of killing their own people?

Where did I accuse you of supporting it? I accussed you of attempting to morally differentiate it from what the Japanese did (which was evil) and thus of understating the evil of Chinese deeds. My inferences are perfectly logical. They may not demonstrate your conscious intent, but they demonstrate the logical end of your arguement, and thus its inherent weakness.

Yes, I am trying heavily to draw a distiction between Chinese government and Japanes invasion simply because this is not about Chinese government. If you open a thread about that I'll happily visit you there.

Ah, but I would contend that it is, in part, about the Chinese. The Chinese were the victims. The Chinese are the ones who continue to hold the grudge. The Chinese are an integral component of this situation. Now, when we discuss the morals applying to this subject we must test them by applying them to all sides. To remove the Chinese is to remove an important instrument of context whereby the question can be tested.
Specifically, we must ask ourselves, if what Japan has done is so damnably wrong, irreparable, and unforgiveable, must not China's transgressions be seen in the same light? The answer can only be that China can not hate China- they must live with themselves and therefore they must move on and make progress rather than living in memory of hatred. That answer would also be applicable to China-Japan. They must live with eachother. They must move on.

Please remind me which of my words suggested that I wished an ongoing war between China and Japan like Israel and Palestine?

Please remind me which of my words suggested that I thought you wished such a thing. I posed a rhetorical question designed to illustrate that for people like you to continue to hold a grudge of hate based on events that happened generations ago will cause the state of affairs between China and Japan will become like those between Israel and Palestine. So I ask you again, do you wish for that to happen, or would you prefer to move forward rather than dwelling on the past?

All I ask is an apology to all the victims and their families and appeasement to those grannies whose lives they ruined.

I posted a link to 36 such apologies.

And Yes, they deserve a proper compensation for it. This is what I want. Simple direct justice.

Deserve isn't the issue. Entitlement is the issue. What people "deserve" and what people can have are almost always different in this world. We do not live in a Utopia, or even a remotely just world. This world is run by those who win wars. Japan beat China, Russia and America beat Japan. Japan is under no obligation to pay China anything. They have fulfilled the terms of surrender. It would be very nice of them to pay up, but it's not going to happen. Now China has a decision to make. They can maintain their demand that Japan compensate for something so horrible it could never be compensated, and they can harbor that hate until it starts yet another war (and I suggest that China keep in mind that their huge population has never been enough to save them from Japan in the past) or they can get over it and try to accept the fact that what is done is done and can never be undone.

I dont think you are following Asian news very well. The statement of someone apologizing you have above is nothing but a joke. They often make statements like that only to deny it the next day. What's the point you ask me? Dunno.

That's easily said, but you have presented no sources what so ever. Show me the quote where Koizumi took back that apology. The problem here is that people are looking for Japan to say some magic words to change something that can never be changed.

Listen carefully- They invaded you, they whooped you, it was very wrong. Nothing can ever take away from how awful it was. Now get through with your little pity party. Either declare war on Japan or accept their apology and try to build a future together.
If somebody beats you up, you either go back and kick their butt back or you let it go. You don't spend the next 100 years asking them to say sorry.

I am not asking any award money or anything like that and I didnt say, so.

OK, so maybe you should clarify exactly what you mean by "appeasements". What do you want the Japanese to do that will somehow magically make up for all the horrible things that went on? There is NOTHING they can say or do that will undo the past. There is NOTHING they can say or do that will kill the hate inside of you until YOU CHOOSE to let that hate die. Until you do so, the pain the Japanese inflicted on your people will live forever, and it will be part your fault.

Yes, you can call me a hate-monger, if ther is a legitimate reason to hate, why not?

Because all fo the things that the Japanese did to your parents and your people were the result of hate. It will all just happen to somebody else some other time all over again if you don't grow up.

Vagabond, say anything you want just dont twist my words again.

Examining the logical conclusions of your words is not twisting them. You make no secret of the fact that you are full of hate and bitterness and that you have no concern for the fact that your attitude may help the same attrocities to occur all over again some day. That's not twisting your words in the least, that's merely examining where they lead and thereby exposing their flaws.

Please keep in mind. A thousand year old crime is still a crime.

Actually the truth or falsity of this depends very much on phrasing. To say "A thousand year old crime still IS a crime" is false. To make it true, you would say, "A thousand year old crime still WAS a crime". The difference is that it is in the past. It's gone. it can't hurt anybody else ever again. The crime now is hatred, dwelling on the past, refusing to make peace. That's what is hurting people now. How is it that Marines who fought the Japanese have managed to make peace with their former adversaries despite the attrocities they comitted to one another? Because it's in the past for them. It can't hurt them ever again. The only thing that could hurt them now would be if they were foolish enough to carry that hate and spend the rest of their lives still fighting a war that was already over.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Redhare,

"Racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race or nationality are intrinsically superior to members of other races or nationalities 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race or nationality [syn: racialism, racial discrimination]"

Good enough for you?

Cheers

BHR

I believe You got that definition from www.dictionary.com
I looked up "racism" and the difinition is a little different from yours. I hope you didnt change anything to suit your own purpose. Here is the definition I got from the web site.

racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race [syn: racialism, racial discrimination]

please dont tell me you added "nationalities" in the definition just to prove your point to me... It's very sad.
Where did that nationalities thing came from?

Rapier, thanks for the quotes from IshiHitler. Very interesting. That being said, he's only the mayor of Tokoyo. It's perfectly fair to keep an eye on Japanese politics and actions and be wary for any sign of them resuming old habits, but you can't go to DEFCON 1 just because a man in a political office which has ZERO foreign policy power is a racist.
If a guy like this made PM of Japan, I think it would only be responsible for China and America to work closely together to contain him and make sure that his BS didn't start a major incident. We're not there yet though.

At the moment, the thing to do with Japan is pretty simple. We have to keep intelligence on them, all concerned powers should keep a general readiness to defend themselves if the need should arise, and we should strenuously press the issue in any case of unilateral Japanese military action that they have forgone their sovreign right to any form of belligerence and are still bound by that treaty.
The day may come when Japan decides that they want the Philippines. If and when that day comes I would expect that America and China will be working side by side under the auspices of the UN to maintain peace and security. There is no way that Japan could prevail against the combined will and might of the UN security council. There is every reason to believe that the Pacific is safe. If that should begin to seem doubtful, then all concerned nations should begin to work as hard as they can to check the threat. Until then, remain calm.

Vagabond,

I agree, in fact, most Japanese are Apathetic towards politics.

This guy actually ran for the PM in 89 but was rejected and has little chance of getting the job.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by rapier28]

Redhare,

I got it from OED 1997 edition.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by rapier28
most Japanese are Apathetic towards politics.

But of course. Japan's Modus Operandi for quite some time has been to do whatever America is doing to an even greater degree.

Originally posted by United Nation

NeoN HaZe.

It's time to clear your eyesight hazy! Sad of you living in Japan for such a year and not understanding the Japanese at all. You have complete no idea of their thinking and mentality.

Sad of me for living in Japan?? I had the time of my life.. I loved every minute of it!!

I spent the first month just wondering around with my mouth wide open going Whaaaa???

The Japanese people I met were some of the most generous, polite and fun people I have met.... with the exception of the Italians lol ;p

The Japanese people were open to showing me as much of their culture and customs as I could learn... I don't think I know everything about Japan of course but from my experience I would say that the original poster and the negative posters here haven't the faintest clue what they are talking about.

Honestly I think it is you that is seeing through some kind of a haze here not me...

My advice would be travel to Japan and just open your eyes and see for yourself before you judge...

I would say visit Kansai region... Kyoto, Kobe and Osaka!! There is literally a mish mash of Ultra Modern right next to Very Very old... It's awesome...

Anyway... try and open your mind and if you can't then it's your loss.

NeoN.

The book is an updated version of the one which triggered formal protests from Beijing and Seoul upon its release in 2001. The book was adopted in 2002 by only about 0.03 per cent of schools following objections from local education boards and teachers.

Don't overreact or anything people. Even in Japan, the wacky textbook in question is being pretty much ignored. The extreme right wing minority that published the book is having a field day with this one. The more they get on the news, the happier they are, since that is all they want. No Japanese school will adopt a textbook with such an unbalanced view of history.

I'm sure we'll be dealing with the same issues soon enough from our wacky right wing. First Saddam had, WMDs, that didn't work. Ties to terrorists. Nope. Broke UN resolutions? So does the US and Israel. He was a bad guy! YES! That's the reason we invaded! And so it will be written for the next 1000 years in our schoolbooks.

"The Japanese murdered over 20,000 prisoners of war in the WWII Bataan Death March. The survivors were shipped by cattle boat with no sanitation to Korea, then force marched to Manchuria where they were held for 3-1/2 years in the infamous medical experimental death camp. There beheadings, bayoneting and mutilations occurred regularly. To date I have never heard one word of apology from Japan, not even an expression of regret for these atrocities by butchers. Now, a maritime accident occurs and 14 die and we are told we are obliged to cringe, grovel and apologize." (Fred Langston, US Navy veteran)

"I noticed that we are sending the Vice Chief of Naval Operations as a special envoy to Japan to apologize for one of our submarines running into a Japanese fishing vessel killing 14 fishermen. I wonder when Japan will send a special envoy to the United States and to the Philippine Islands to apologize for killing 20,000 allied prisoners of war who died on the Bataan Death March. Rest in peace fellows. Still some of us remember Pearl Harbor vividly." (Brig. Gen. Bob Clements, USAF-Ret.)

I suggest reading 'Prisoners of the Japanese : Pows of World War II in the Pacific'
www.amazon.com...=1112814533/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-9611836-9901548

I think its time some of OUR men get a little payback/retribution

Originally posted by Neon Haze
Honestly I think it is you that is seeing through some kind of a haze here not me...

My advice would be travel to Japan and just open your eyes and see for yourself before you judge

Well, certainly we all confirm you need an eye doctor, right to have that picture of yourself! And can you see the rivers flowing in Osaka??? or the kind of sushi you are eating???
Going to Japan???? I think maybe I am one of the hustler you didn't even notice in Japan.
[edit on 6-4-2005 by United Nation]
[edit to remove insults -nygdan]

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Nygdan]

Sorry i came back late and saw so many replies on this.
first of all i need to say i post this is because i want more people aware that what current Japanese history book is. I am a Chinese and I have Japanese friend now in University, strange? nope, continue to read plz.

then i want to say i have been to UK, Spain, France, and spent few days in Japan. So you can tell that i have been to many places.(Actually not many, but at least some~) Now i am doing a computing drgree in the university of Leeds in UK. This summer i will go to Italy.

If someone here says you feel good and nice in Japan there is nothing to be blamed and meanwhile please think have you been to other asian countries which is victim of Japan's deed during WWII? Have you ever saw how Japan government refuse to apologise and pay for those victims? i guess you will spend more time thinking before speaking for them if you have. Japan friend won't let you see those things and they may not aware of that as a matter of fact.

They have apologised? When? Please show the original and official word. Why they still serve first class war criminal's position in temple and let prime minister visit every year? The best way to solve it is to move those people's name out, is it hard? Thay are classified as first class war criminal by all the countries in the world including Japan itself so it's a tricky way to refuse right things like this.

I agree one of you's saying"go to that place before you saying something",
This is true based on my expercience and you know what i mean as a Chinese. As a people from socialist country i get used to hear negtive news from west media. i promise you 9 out of 10 news i heard here is not true, how do i know? well you can choose to believe a people from that country and your media that's your freedom. But i know people around me (part time work in UK) get their permition to stay in UK by just saying they suffer political persecution in China. is it real? Just for immegration rights, so....no words.

I speak too far...the best way is to know the truth by tourself, this post is a warning, i don't see how can i make people here hate Japan just by that and most people here r americans or from european. Japan is far from you you don't need to worry about it as we did, if i really made some people here hate Japan i will feel suprise by this newly explored ability^_^.

out.

This is a fact, your media may seldem show it but try some Chinese or Korean website you shall see how things goes wrong there.

I hope few post showing some understanding, well just a hope.

out

Originally posted by taobo33
They have apologised? When? Please show the original and official word.

I already did. It's linked above.

Why they still serve first class war criminal's position in temple and let prime minister visit every year?

That temple is no longer owned by the Japanese government. It is privately funded. Furthermore, to do otherwise would be a contradiction of their religion. Someone as widely traveled as yourself must be aware that different cultures view things in very different ways. The Japanese believe that in death your sins are absolved. For a Shinto temple to expunge somebody for their crimes in life is a contradiction which simply can not be demanded of them.
Take this as an example. Christians believe that if you have true faith in Jesus Christ that you will go to heaven, and that nothing can stop this. If a very evil person became a Christian, then Christians would recognize that person as being saved and absolved of their sin. Asking them to declare that the evil person went to hell would be unthinkable to them, because it flies in the face of their belief that your mortal deeds are insignificant compared to the greatness of God and his laws.
So for the Japanese, the idea of holding somebody in Damnatio Memoriae for their actions would be completely foreign and unthinkable.

Please note that I actually don't know much about Shintoism and am open to correction. I am basing this only on what I have read recently about the difficulties over this subject.

I agree one of you's saying"go to that place before you saying something",
This is true based on my expercience and you know what i mean as a Chinese. As a people from socialist country i get used to hear negtive news from west media. i promise you 9 out of 10 news i heard here is not true, how do i know? well you can choose to believe a people from that country and your media that's your freedom. But i know people around me (part time work in UK) get their permition to stay in UK by just saying they suffer political persecution in China. is it real? Just for immegration rights, so....no words.

With all due respect you haven't raised any factual dispute about repression in China. All you're saying is that you think people are making it all up so that they can stay in the West. That's pure conjecture.

if i really made some people here hate Japan i will feel suprise by this newly explored ability^_^.

I don't think you made anyone hate Japan. I'm guessing the RedHare was full of lamentbale and destructive hatred well before this discussion began.

Vagabond,

I saddens me when people are happy to extol their hatred of another race or nationality.

You have put up a good case for not treating all Japenese as if they were responsible for the actions of those during WW2.

It is a shame that others are unable to make that distinction.

Cheers

BHR

Thanks for the nod Bill
I really don't understand how somebody can let hate consume them for so long. I obviously know what it is to hate. Everyone hates someone at least for a short time. But with any luck at all you grow up. You realize that its gone and doesn't hurt anymore unless you dwell on it. It seems to me that you'd have to make a PURPOSEFUL DECISION to hate somebody for very long.


I knew a guy early in highschool who was 3 things that I hated- he was a gang member, he was pothead, and he liked to make fun of people. We came to blows more than once. A few years down the road we ran into eachother. He said hi, I said hi. No problems. Apparently we had both put it behind us without really even thinking about it.
Well I've got a map right here, and my map says that by all odds Japan and China WILL be running into eachother a lot. So there are only two options. They can duke it out again, or they can do what me and Carlos did.

This animosity has correlation with recent events.

1) The rise of Japanese Nationalism since the publication of the book "Japan can say no in the early 90's or late 80's.

2) The rise of Chinese Nationalism with the growth in the middle class and a publication of the book "China can also say No".

More recently,
* disputes over the exclusive economic zones surrounding the sea of Japan, China, Korea and Russia,

* the "changing" of the history books,

* the election of right-wing politicians in Japan,

* growth in the Chinese military,

* the radical Taiwanese who wants Japan to defend Taiwan from China. (Japan annexed Taiwan from the Qing government after beating it in battle around 1845, it was later returned)

The point i'am making is that while the historical animosity is the fuel in the current disputes, it's the contemporary events that have played a major role. It is not right to say that "forgive and move on" will solve the problem because the problem is with current events.

Rapier,

Well then stick with your hatred since that always solves problems.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rapier,

Well then stick with your hatred since that always solves problems.

Cheers

BHR

Bill, firstly, i don't possess "hatred".

My post is a simple anaysis of the situation, it presents factors on both sides that cause the current tensions.

Mabye you should stick to your head before posting.