New Japan history textbook. Watch out!!!

Rapier,

My mistake I mixed you up with Redhare.

I am sorry

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Rapier,

My mistake I mixed you up with Redhare.

I am sorry

Cheers

BHR

No worries,

I also withdraw my last comment, it was made in the heat of the moment.

Rapier,

Heat of the moment is easily done, mate.

Cheers

BHR

I think the horrendously appalling Japanese war in China has been pretty much ignored as just a general part of the whole WW2 history.

That isn't to excuse the murderous history of the Chinese gov's own actions (that is a totally separate issue with it's own ramifications and wider effects) but it does illuminate and help us understand some of the attitudes widely held in China today regarding the outside world and their near neighbours.

Ironically this includes China being much less hostile to the USA (thanks to US help and aid during that time) than seems apparant from some in the USA who seem intent on creating a 'USSR mk2' as a 'military competitor' out of China today.

Thankfully the Chinese aren't going to 'play' - so that makes it just the US playing that absurdly unjustified paranoid 'ludicrously bloat-out the military cos we're under immeadiate serious threat, no really, honest!' game - as one look at the relative budgets and military capacities illustrates just how laughable the idea is.
Even Bush dropped the notion as ridiculous very quickly in his 1st term.

(That wasn't, by the way, 'America bashing'; it was pointing out just how ludicrous and detached from actual reality the minority element in charge in the US are at the moment.)


[edit on 7-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by rapier28
This animosity has correlation with recent events.

The point i'am making is that while the historical animosity is the fuel in the current disputes, it's the contemporary events that have played a major role. It is not right to say that "forgive and move on" will solve the problem because the problem is with current events.

I disagree specifically because the real issues, which indeed are current events, can't possibly be addressed if the focus is on people like RedHare who are busy hating the Japanese for the conflicts of 60 years ago and demanding that Japan somehow assuage their grief over something that can never be compensated for.

Nationalism in China and Japan does not necessarily have to result in conflict, but is far more likely to if Chinese nationalism continues to be, in part, reactionary. If you take and add the last generation's tensions onto the current ones, it can only hurt the situation.

I'm not at all closed to the possibility that Japan may eventually become an aggressor, and it would only be prudent for the Chinese military to plan for such eventualities. That does not mean that the average Chinese should harbor a personalized hatred of Japan. The sentiment that RedHare is expressing is exactly the sort of thing that could bring current conflicts to a boil from the Chinese side, even though they would not be casus belli in and of themselves (Casus Belli being the section of a declaration of war in which grievances or demands are expressed).

For those reasons I have to maintain that if any significant part of the Chinese population continues to harbor a deep personal hatred because of what happened 60 years ago, they are only increasing the chances of another war. The obvious thing to remember is that other human beings will suffer the same fates if there is another war. It will propagate the conflict well into the future until somebody breaks the cycle, which is hard to do, as evidenced by the examples of Kosovo and Palestine that I have used before.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Ironically this includes China being much less hostile to the USA (thanks to US help and aid during that time

Basicially, everyone is being much less hostile to the USA nowadays

UN


[edited quotation and attribution - nygdan]



[edit on 8-4-2005 by Nygdan]

UN,

I think that most countries see the US as a power that is beginning to wane despite its bluster.

If it continues on in the current vein the writing is on the wall for its fall from dominance.

Cheers

BHR

for me, my own opinion , no offense to others , i didn't attack other people, please do not attack me . Forgive my english error and poor grammer. All my comments are not in support for any country. Purely my own opinion. DO not attack me, i am innocent .

ok, to me i personally feel that japan should not change their textbk , the history. What they are teaching to the younger generations are all mistake. This totally make education no sense. Education suppose to be truth and facts (even though not 100% facts in history sense ) , however if they decided to change the history, then it totally beat the purpose of having a right education. So, if the education in Japan is set to aknowledge that Japan is pure and nice....then it
indicate that the education in Japan is totally a disaster since all the facts have been distorted to make their image look clean and healthy. Then Tokyo University should not be in the top 100 university in the world!

By the way, did they mention or change the history of them attacking pearl harbour? If not , why not? Are they afraid to anger the Americans? Or is it because the Americans are the only ally that will support them in times of Asia crisis like korea or china attacking japan?

Yes Japanese are very honourably people, they are creative, smart and very very hardworking. They are also very loyal and are totally perfectionist. However they didn't mention the terrible things they did during the war. They rape womens....girls.... , they killed babies, innocent boys and old people. Why don't they mention those? Are they so disgraceful of what they did? Are they so shameless of what they have done?

If not, why must they change the history and whitewashes all their crime? I can tell you that.. if ever they did change the history , those younger japanese generations will be proud of their ancestors doing... they will not feel a bit of guilty...not even a bit of pity to the many crimes their great grand fathers did. They will be arrogant and reply yes!, what they did are right if ever someone on the street ask them did they know what their great grand fathers ever did? Are this heartbreaking news for people who had suffered alot during the Japanese occupation? Thinking of how the younger kids and children of Japan ever deny the cruel invasion?


Are the people who suggested to change the history not shameful of their doings? Are they not a bit of guilty ? Do they have the face to ever meet the people who are killed, raped, separated from the family (be it young children and poor parents) in the other world when they die?

I can assure that some things cannot be forgotten....the time when the Japanese invaded Asia...Because of what they did.....many family are broken, and many things changed. I would be dead if i ever said all this 60 years ago in a Japan ruling country.

Again this is my own opinion. Do not attack me ...

Originally posted by hrtw
So, if the education in Japan is set to aknowledge that Japan is pure and nice....then it indicate that the education in Japan is totally a disaster since all the facts have been distorted to make their image look clean and healthy. Then Tokyo University should not be in the top 100 university in the world!

In all fairness, they aren't saying they were clean and pure. The admit that what they did was inappropriate. It doesn't look like they changed the story- they just glossed over it. They just SIGNIFICANTLY softened the language, which as I said in my first post is a negative thing in that it must be disconcerting to their neighbors and that it fails to teach a moral aversion to such things.
It doesn't seem to be malicious though. Everybody sympathizes with their own side of a conflict and presents things in that light. How many of you read in American textbooks about Sanford Dole forced the monarch of Hawaii into the "Bayonett Constitution" which stripped natives of voting rights, then had got the USA to send in the Marines to complete the coup? That's how it happened. American businessmen hijacked Hawaii so they wouldn't have to pay US tariffs anymore, and crooked American politicians were all to happy to rent the Marine Corps out as mercs.

So I see both sides. I don't expect the Japanese to call themselves murderers in their own schools. I don't even really expect them to be ashamed per se. I would only expect them to name the offenses specifically (rape and murder) and present them in the light of a serious mistake which must be avoided again, not unlike the American attitude towards Vietnam. Our textbooks don't say that Vietnam was an unjust imperialist war that served no purpose but to ruin hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives, but they do acknowledge the wrongs that took place, such as My Lai and present it as a cautionary example to future generations.
It is only to be expected that a Japanese textbook will present the reasons Japan saw for going to war and present the war as a necessity of the time. If I was Japanese that may well be how I saw it. All anyone can ask is for acknowledgement of the facts- they can have any opinion on the matter they want.

I can assure that some things cannot be forgotten....the time when the Japanese invaded Asia...Because of what they did.....many family are broken, and many things changed. I would be dead if i ever said all this 60 years ago in a Japan ruling country.

It can't be changed, and probably can't be forgotten, but that doesn't mean that it has to be dwelled upon. I think its important to basically say, "this is what happened, we want to make sure it never happens again, and part of that includes forgiving and trying to build a future as neighbors based on mutual respect."

This is of course only my opinion. I suppose I coudl be wrong. I'm sure it seems somewhat contradictory that I both see the Japanese textbook as insufficient yet have fairly low expectations for what it should say. I suppose this at least partly stems from my acceptance of the fact that we live in an imperfect world and things will never really be totally right.
So please don't see this as an attack, just me humbly offering my opinion in response. I was more harsh with RedHare because i despise those who commit themselves to hatred. Far be it from me to deny some one their right to simply have an opinion .

[edit on 9-4-2005 by The Vagabond]

yes good comment from you Vagabond. I suppose we are living in a imprefect world with all this troubles....

History is history, the purpose of history is to learn from them and never make the same mistake our ancestors did....

anyway there are somethings we might not know about this "textbk changing " thing...it could be political issues or other sovereign 's issues that we are not told in the news and the mouth of the people in political power....

Nevertheless, learn from mistake , forgive and let go .... Life must still go on....

[edit on 9-4-2005 by hrtw]

Originally posted by RedHare

As a side note. Ninja are rejects from China during the three kingdom era because the practice was concider inefficient in warcraft and without honor. And sumerai sword forging is actually a sub-class forging technique called thousand-leave. It was applied mostily to farm tools in Tang dynasty. sadly, it was the only forging technique they stole eh heh "borrowed". they use it on all kinds of blades and knives for example kitchen meat cleavers. Not that glamerous eh?

[edit on 6-4-2005 by RedHare]

Wow...even if you don't like Japan, you don't have to beat down their culture value so mercilessly eh? hahaha.... In a way, they helped maintain some of the ancient Chinese values from Tang Dynasty, as you mentioned.

Well, I am sure they made some improvement. They usually do a lot of modification if they copy the ideas from someone else.

There are a lot of dishonorable things in all nation and culture, not just Japan though.

By the way, is the ninja and sword thing absolutely correct? I never heard of it before. Very interesting.

[edit on 9-4-2005 by twchang]

TWchang,

I think if you look at history as a whole everyone learns from those they encounter.

One can call that stealing if one is so inclined.

Cheers

BHR

It can be called stealing, but I think in the bigger picture it ignores a great deal about how the development of civilizations works. Contact breeds exchange of ideas, which breeds new ideas, which breeds advancement. It's no mistake that great civilizations are so frequently bordered by other great civilizations. They make eachother great. Sumer and Akkad (later merged in Babylon), Greece and Rome, etc etc. Beg, borrow, steal, conquer. It's not a black mark on a civilization to acquire knowledge- that's how advancement works.
"If I have seen farther, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." There is honor for both parties in this.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Exchange of ideas are not dishonorable. If you can make a kitchen knife into a katana then go ahead. It is actually very innovative to do so. That is why I was been a bit sarcastic when people say Japan just copy stuff and is dishonorable.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by twchang
That is exactly what I was thinking. Exchange of ideas are not dishonorable. If you can make a kitchen knife into a katana then go ahead. It is actually very innovative to do so. That is why I was been a bit sarcastic when people say Japan just copy stuff and is dishonorable.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by twchang]

Lol, you should go to some of the other posts that whine about China copying everything from Humvees to jet fighters.

I think "copying" things usually touches a raw nerve in the human psyche but we have all being it since the first caveman copied his neighbours rock on a stick to make a hammer.

Rapier,

Great post.

If I had any votes left I would have voted for you for way above.

Cheers

BHR

Pretty much says it all. An ordinary housewife in Japan speaks up.


www.japantimes.co.jp...

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Pretty much says it all. An ordinary housewife in Japan speaks up.


www.japantimes.co.jp...

And an ordianry housewife reprsents the whole of Japan?
I bet you could find a ordinary housewife who says the only mistake the Japanese made was leaving a Chinaman alive!

This book is still wrong. The Japanese need to undergo a process of acceptance and regret similar to that of Germany so they understnad why Asia is so angry with them.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Pretty much says it all. An ordinary housewife in Japan speaks up.


www.japantimes.co.jp...

And an ordianry housewife reprsents the whole of Japan?
I bet you could find a ordinary housewife who says the only mistake the Japanese made was leaving a Chinaman alive!

This book is still wrong. The Japanese need to undergo a process of acceptance and regret similar to that of Germany so they understnad why Asia is so angry with them.

Pretty much, yes an ordinary japanese housewife's opinion would not deviate so greatly from any of her compatriots. It also sums up quite eloquently how the ordinary Japanese on the street feel.

I think you may be focusing too much on a group of right-wing nutjobs here in Japan who honestly don't carry that much weight.

I doubt you could find any ordinary Japanese person who would wish any ill-will on any person, even the Chinese.

The book IS wrong, but what has to be drummed through your thick skull is that a very very very small percent (around 2% I believe) of Japanese students use this book. And how many of those are even paying attention in class??

The Germans are Europeans. The Japanese are Asians. Different cultures have different ways of coming to terms with things. So anything Germany did would be irrelevant in this case.

How much of 'Asia' do you think is really angry with them? Less than those grateful for the jobs their factories bring and those who lap up Japanese fashions and pop I would think.

A couple of politically motivated and government sponsored protests in China and you reckon the whole of Asia is angry with them???? Come on, wake up dude.

Uncle Joe,

Where do you hail from?

Where do you live now?

Cheers

BHR