America just blew up Russia's gas pipeline, and admitted it.

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: PerfectAnomoly

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

When was the last time Putin did not keep his word?

Really? Really?

How about when he said Russia would not invade Unkraine, it was just training exercises?

Pretty big lie that one...

PA

It isn't war yet.

You might want to look up the definition of war:

"a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state"

Russia invaded Ukraine. They are engaged in ARMED CONFLICT. That is a war. Get over it.

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: PerfectAnomoly

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

When was the last time Putin did not keep his word?

Really? Really?

How about when he said Russia would not invade Unkraine, it was just training exercises?

Pretty big lie that one...

PA

It isn't war yet.

You might want to look up the definition of war:

"a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state"

Russia invaded Ukraine. They are engaged in ARMED CONFLICT. That is a war. Get over it.

If it really was a war Ukraine would have been dead and buried months ago. I dont know how much longer putin will pull his punches, so you may get your war.

For now it's a special operation.

a reply to: Nexttimemaybe

Always a pleasure to have a polite and sensible debate.

This isn't one of them.

Look up the definition of "war".

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: PerfectAnomoly

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

When was the last time Putin did not keep his word?

Really? Really?

How about when he said Russia would not invade Unkraine, it was just training exercises?

Pretty big lie that one...

PA

It isn't war yet.

You might want to look up the definition of war:

"a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state"

Russia invaded Ukraine. They are engaged in ARMED CONFLICT. That is a war. Get over it.

If it really was a war Ukraine would have been dead and buried months ago. I dont know how much longer putin will pull his punches, so you may get your war.

For now it's a special operation.

Putin's strategy has nothing to do with the definition of war. A war is an armed conflict. That's the reality. Putin can call it anything he wants. No one cares. What matters is that both sides are engaged in a hot war.

A declaration of war is a formal declaration issued by a national government indicating that a state of war exists between that nation and another.

Has either side done this?

No

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe
A declaration of war is a formal declaration issued by a national government indicating that a state of war exists between that nation and another.

Has either side done this?

No

Yes. Russia did. The difference between "special operation" and "war" is strictly semantical. It was a rhetorical mask which didn't work. It's war. Get over it.

a reply to: Nexttimemaybe

If it looks like a cat, smells like a cat then it is a cat. Putin's "special operations" rhetoric falls on deaf ears. As soon as the first shot was fired, it was a non-starter.

a reply to: Nexttimemaybe

en.m.wikipedia.org...#:~:text=The%20Contracting%20Powers%20recognize%20that,with%20conditional%20declaration%20of%20war.< br />


You're splitting hairs.

Love to see you argue the toss about this with an actual combatant in Ukraine.

a reply to: Phantom423

Phantom,

A short story.

My father was a career army officer. Among his experiences was a tour during the Korean War. He could not stand the official UN term "police action" for that war. I suspect that both sides in the current war make a long face when someone says "special operation".

Cheers

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: Phantom423

Phantom,

A short story.

My father was a career army officer. Among his experiences was a tour during the Korean War. He could not stand the official UN term "police action" for that war. I suspect that both sides in the current war make a long face when someone says "special operation".

Cheers

Yes, you're right. I had forgotten about the "police action". Good analogy. People still died.

originally posted by: MidnightWatcher
a reply to: M5xaz


Of course videos are available, but they are both taken out of context and twisted to include words that weren't said, like 'take out that pipeline'.




Does the US have the LNG terminals to export any more gas to Europe?

Then why keep 'projecting' that the US is gonna reap some kind of imaginary windfall?

The videos were not taken out of context.
Stop lying



Biden
4:08 "There will no longer be a Nordstream 2, We will bring an end to it"

Nuland
6:10 "One WAY OR ANOTHER, Nordstream 2 will not move forward"

Germany was starting to distance itself from the Ukraine war. The main purpose of blowing up Nordstream pipelines was to prevent Germany from backing out and going back on Russian gas.

Only America benefits from this destruction.
No one else

a reply to: M5xaz


Notice how he always refers to just the one pipeline?

The one that had never been used that russia was demanding approval for?

Was the other pipeline, the one that had been previously used, also exploded?

Or only the one for which there had long been a political battle?

He did not say the words 'take out that pipeline' as repeatedly claimed.



So yes, 'twisting'.

originally posted by: MidnightWatcher
a reply to: M5xaz


Notice how he always refers to just the one pipeline?

The one that had never been used that russia was demanding approval for?

Was the other pipeline, the one that had been previously used, also exploded?

Or only the one for which there had long been a political battle?

He did not say the words 'take out that pipeline' as repeatedly claimed.



So yes, 'twisting'.

The only one "twisting" is YOU

No one claimed Biden said 'take out that pipeline'
Biden did say "WE WILL PUT AN END TO IT"

THE MEANING IS CLEAR

a reply to: M5xaz

Stop shouting.

a reply to: M5xaz


Yes, someone did, but I just noticed he edited his post to be an accurate quote after I called it out, so will no longer complain about it.




"THE MEANING IS CLEAR"

Sure is, he intended to end the chances that NS2 would ever get approved.

Or are you pretending he threatened the other pipeline too?

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: PerfectAnomoly

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

When was the last time Putin did not keep his word?

Really? Really?

How about when he said Russia would not invade Unkraine, it was just training exercises?

Pretty big lie that one...

PA

It isn't war yet.

You might want to look up the definition of war:

"a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state"

Russia invaded Ukraine. They are engaged in ARMED CONFLICT. That is a war. Get over it.

If it really was a war Ukraine would have been dead and buried months ago. I dont know how much longer putin will pull his punches, so you may get your war.

For now it's a special operation.

Word is, Russia is instituting a draft. So I'm not sure how much more serious things could get? Any more than what he's doing and he'd have to pull troops off of guarding Russia's borders. Which admittedly......... it's not like anyone would actually invade just because the borders are unguarded.

Short of nuclear or chemical weapons, Putin appears to be fielding his whole arsenal.

But he also has another problem: he can't put more soldiers into the field than he has supply lines for. The ones guarding the borders, he has existing supply lines for. If he moves them to Ukraine, where his ability to supply troops is limited, he has to create new supply lines, which has been Russia's achilles heel this whole fight.

The limitation of his supply lines defines the maximum size of force he can deploy at the same time. He just plain can't go over that, no matter how badly he wants to.

originally posted by: MidnightWatcher
a reply to: bloodymarvelous


We produce plenty already, we don't have the ability to ship any more to Europe at any price.

That isn't how supply and demand works. When a new demand springs up in a place a business doesn't have the extra capacity to send more natural gas to, that business approaches its existing customers and says something like "Oh look! These guys over in Europe are willing to pay me three times what you're paying."

Then they ask the existing customers if they want to match that price, or have the natural gas get diverted to the location that is offering more money?

Any increase in demand anywhere, raises the price everywhere.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous


On the first bit: Good analysis and well said. russia could have established sufficient supply lines before or early in the war, and that would have likely been decisive at the time, but they don't appear to be capable of that anymore (or even close)





On the 2nd bit: You are partly correct, but it will be those export terminals and specialized ships that they would be bidding up in price, not the gas itself, because we already produce so much that we're literally just burning it off at wellheads. Only the ships and terminals on both sides of the Atlantic are short of demand, due to poor election choices.

Given that, while I am normally against such things, it wouldn't surprise me at all if politicians on both sides of the Atlantic used either price caps or nationalization of the terminals and ships, which is normally a tiny portion of the overall energy cost, but has exploded in the short term due to those same politician's mistakes.

That last bit of your post is straight out of micro 101, but you forgot the other part of the sentence: "in a free market with equal transportation barriers".

The 'transportation barriers' is where the problem is.

originally posted by: MidnightWatcher
a reply to: bloodymarvelous



On the 2nd bit: You are partly correct, but it will be those export terminals and specialized ships that they would be bidding up in price, not the gas itself, because we already produce so much that we're literally just burning it off at wellheads. Only the ships and terminals on both sides of the Atlantic are short of demand, due to poor election choices.

That's a good point. The weakest point in any supply chain is where most of the money goes. So the shipper would probably make all the money.


If you remember back to Donald Trump getting impeached over the whole Burisma investigation thing, it only gets a little bit of mention, but one of Trump's supporters had wanted to begin shipping natural gas out of Texas, to help reduce Ukraine's dependency on Russian natural gas.

www.tampabay.com...

Andrew Favorov, the No. 2 at Ukraine’s state-run gas company Naftogaz, says he sat on a red leather bench seat and listened wide-eyed as the men boasted of their connections to President Donald Trump and proposed a deal to sell large quantities of liquefied natural gas from Texas to Ukraine.

www.cnbc.com...

The Trump administration hopes to ship more liquefied natural gas, or LNG, to the region. The United States has abundant supplies of low-cost natural gas and is building new terminals to ship the fossil fuel overseas in liquid form. Poland received its first shipment of U.S. LNG last month from Cheniere Energy
’s Sabine Pass terminal, currently the only export facility in the lower 48 states.

LNG trade between the United States and Three Seas nations would help Trump in his bid to reduce the U.S. trade deficit and stands to improve energy security among the European countries by giving them an alternative to Russian gas.

So it is true the USA doesn't presently have very much ability to ship it out, but it's an economic possibility that has certainly been explored.

It was more Trump that had wanted this, but maybe Biden is coming around to the idea as well?