Do you have any question about *Jihad* ???

Originally posted by Islam
I want what ALL Cristian priests say about the war in Iraq in ARABIC LANGUAGE.

Can you bring that????

Dear shots. Be logic please

I am being locigal. Just how hard would it be to excommunicate them from the church? Or don't you understand what I am saying?

Here is the simplist of terms. Why don't the leaders of Islam kick them out of the islamic faith. Or are you sying there are no leaders? I mean if it is a true religion surely it has a chain of command in the church somewhere right?

Originally posted by Islam
Dear vincere:
However, there are many wrong things you said it that has no single proof

1. Uzbekistan was Muslim country before the Soviet, and the proof is the hundreds of old mosques that are found there before centuries and there are many famous old Muslim scholars from there.

2. The problem is NOT with Muslims and USA. The problem is between Muslims and USA government that support the terrorism of Sharon.

3. WE, Muslims, don’t believe in all what the bible say. Simply because it was written tens of years after Jesus. But there are something in it that is true.

Fact: The CIA also helped convert the pro soviet military and Uzbeks in Uzbekistan through funneling Uzbek Qurans, translated "The Lesson" across the border.

When talking about the Bible you are referring to 66 books (books of the Muslims is 55, one being the Quran), which span the Old Testament to the New Testament. You must not be a Muslim as Muslims DO believe in Old Testament writings such as Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jeremiah, Moses, Elijah and many other prophets such as Jonah and Ezekiel as the prophet Mohammed directly quoted them. So yes you either believe the Bible or you disagree with the prophet Mohammed, which is it?

Are you saying you do not agee with Sheik Osama Bin Laden, that the United States citizens must pay for the atrocities of our government? Any answer you give is merely your opinion and varies amongst those who are Muslim. I assure you the majority sentiment is anti-American government (which quietly agrees to kill American civilians).

Now on the dating, where you are confused, the oldest scriptures we have date back 2nd century B.C.(E) In normal speak this is roughly 700 years before Mohammed was born. Of course the books are established through archaelogical finds such as the Nabonidus Chronicle, Dead Sea Scrolls and Cyrus' Circle.

Also fact: Mohammed learned about Christianity from a Syrian monk, and is mentioned in the hadith, collections of Mohammed’s words and actions that serve for most Muslims as a second source of authority alongside the Qur’an.

The difference is Mohammed chose what to keep and what not to keep for his writings and is why Christ is mentioned, prophets quoted, and verses directly copied form manuscripts such as Ezekiel 18; verse 45. I hope you can understand my Jewish English.

This is a very interesting and informative topic.

I am what some people in the U.S. call a "hippie," which is someone who believes in peace above all else essentialy (atleast in the modern interpretation of that term lol). When I look at Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, or anyone else who happens to be Arabic, I don't see Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, or Arabs. I see human beings, just like me. Because of my beliefs, I am bound to love all human beings as if they were my brothers and sisters. So, because I am a human being just like them, that means - in my mind atleast - they are a part of me. We are connected. So when I see them suffering, dying, being mutilated, etc. it causes me enormous pain and saddness, just like it does when I see Americans suffering the same fate.

It is clear that there are cultural and ideological differences between the so called West, and many predominantly Islamic cultures. However, I have great faith that human beings are capable of bringing peace to the world so that no more people have to die in wars and other violent conflicts.

So Islam: my question is, in your opinion, what can both the West and the East and Middle East do - together - to help understand eachother more, and respect and love eachother more so that we don't see eachother as enemies, but as if we were a big family that is connected? And how would you go about accomplishing this yourself?

I know most people don't believe this is possible, and you might not either, but please just humor me for the sake of this conversation. Thanks!

I am being locigal. Just how hard would it be to excommunicate them from the church? Or don't you understand what I am saying?

Here is the simplist of terms. Why don't the leaders of Islam kick them out of the islamic faith. Or are you sying there are no leaders? I mean if it is a true religion surely it has a chain of command in the church somewhere right?

I didn’t say scholars are not important!
But I said that scholars have limits that if they passed it they ill not be considered as scholars at all.
Their limits are the general rules, ideas, and theologies of the Quran.
If any scholar, I don’t care who, say any thing that contradicts Quran and claim that it is ISLAM, then his saying will be thrown in the nearest garbage!! If he believes so and say that what I believe but it is not ISLAM, then his ideas figure him and his followers not ISLAM!

For example, some groups of Turkish Islamic scholars allow women to not wear the scarf! This idea contradicts CLEAR VERSES from the Quranand has very weak proves if any and thus it is not accepted in Islam at all and all other scholars oppose that.

Another example is BinLaden! He is NOT a scholar even!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And he invented this “Holy terror” against nonMuslims and especially Americans. This action contradicts CLEAR VERSES from the Quran ((Here are some iiie.net...)) and has very weak proves if any and thus it is not accepted in Islam at all

NOW!

An experienced proof that Muslims don’t follow those BinLadenians is that NO Muslim is answering his encouraging to his stupid jihad!

If he is a believable man among Muslims, then there should be 9/11 everyday in USA and Europe because there are many Muslims!

Also, if he is a believable man among Muslims, then there should be terrorist attacks in all Muslim countries against Americans like SaudiArabia!!! BUT everyday life shows us that these terrorist attacks are only in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and recently in Iraq.

THAT IS A PROOF that Wahhabies (who located mostly in Saudi Arabia) are the ones who follow that idiot NOT all Muslims who are 1.5 BILLION!!!!

When talking about the Bible you are referring to 66 books (books of the Muslims is 55, one being the Quran), which span the Old Testament to the New Testament. You must not be a Muslim as Muslims DO believe in Old Testament writings such as Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jeremiah, Moses, Elijah and many other prophets such as Jonah and Ezekiel as the prophet Mohammed directly quoted them. So yes you either believe the Bible or you disagree with the prophet Mohammed, which is it?

What are you talking about!!

Muslims believe in the prophets that you mentioned your names BUT ALL Muslims don’t believe that the old testimony or the new one are right RIGHT NOW!

Who told you that Muslims believe in that!!!!

Allah says in many parts of the Quran about the changings that occurred on the bible.

For example,

He says: “Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” 2-75

Also he says: (And remember) when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) to make it (the news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ and the religious knowledge) known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought” 3:187

He says also, “O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) and a plain Book (this Qur'an).” 5:15

Also, he says: “They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters, etc.) did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allah send down to any human being (by inspiration)." Say (O Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ): "Who then sent down the Book which Moosa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much). And you (believers in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ), were taught (through the Qur'an) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allah (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions.” 6:91
And there are other more.
Plaease dear vincere, bring proves of what ou are saying especially if that has to do with THEOLOGY.

Are you saying you do not agee with Sheik Osama Bin Laden, that the United States citizens must pay for the atrocities of our government? Any answer you give is merely your opinion and varies amongst those who are Muslim. I assure you the majority sentiment is anti-American government (which quietly agrees to kill American civilians).

First, don’t call that growth rat as a “sheikh.” Sheikh is pure name and cannot be addressed to criminals and blood eaters like that maniac.

Second, Can you bring a proof from the whole Quran that agree with the ideas of that Satan?
This is the whole Quran. Search in it in any language you want.
quran.nu...

My proves are here
iiie.net...

Third, An experienced proof that Muslims don’t follow those BinLadenians is that NO Muslim is answering his encouraging to his stupid jihad!

If he is a believable man among Muslims, then there should be 9/11 everyday in USA and Europe because there are many Muslims!

Also, if he is a believable man among Muslims, then there should be terrorist attacks in all Muslim countries against Americans like SaudiArabia!!! BUT everyday life shows us that these terrorist attacks are only in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and recently in Iraq.

THAT IS A PROOF that Wahhabies (who located mostly in Saudi Arabia) are the ones who follow that idiot NOT all Muslims who are 1.5 BILLION!!!!

Also fact: Mohammed learned about Christianity from a Syrian monk, and is mentioned in the hadith, collections of Mohammed’s words and actions that serve for most Muslims as a second source of authority alongside the Qur’an.

1. That is a lie, and there are no authentic hadith say that.

2. Also, Muhammad met the Syrian monk when he was 12 years old and Syrians at that time had another language than Arabic.

3. IF I believed that, Why don’t that monk claim that he is the prophet?????????? Why did he let the student to claim that he is a prophet???????

4. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, Would he knew at that time about all thesescientific theories that discovered recently?
www.harunyahya.com...

5. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, would he mention his name only 4 times while mentioning Jesus name 25 times and Moses name 136 times ???!?!?!?!?

6. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, would he admonish himself!!!! Allah admonish Muhammad peace be upon him abot three times in the Quran. And there is a whole chapter called “He Frowned” started with admonishing Muhammad because he frowned his holy face to a blind guy to annoyed him while he was talking to the leaders of pegans to become a Muslim. This is the chapter!
www.usc.edu...

7. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, would he live that humble life that he lived! Aysha, his wife, said that The messenger of Allah, Muhammad, used to not eat any thing other than water and date for 2 months.

May Allah sed all peace and blessings on the pure body of the holy prophet MUHAMMAD (The one who is praised from others)

Do you want more?

So Islam: my question is, in your opinion, what can both the West and the East and Middle East do - together - to help understand eachother more, and respect and love eachother more so that we don't see eachother as enemies, but as if we were a big family that is connected? And how would you go about accomplishing this yourself?

May Allah bless you AceWombat!

If all humans are like you, then we wouldn’t have all these conflicts and we wouldn’t have terrorists such as Saddam, Hitler, Osama, Bush, Sharon, etc.

I support every single world that you said and that is because Allah (God) himself support that.

Allah says in the Quran:
“O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another (NOT TO HATE ECH OTHER). Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is that who has At-Taqwa (i.e. one of the Muttaqun (pious). Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” 49:13



He says also, “And the slaves of the Most Beneficent (Allah) are those who walk on the earth in humility and sedateness, and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they say: Peace (reply back with mild words of gentleness) .” 25:63

He also says: “And We have sent you (O Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).” 21:107


He also says: “Allah calls to the home of peace and guides whom He wills to a Straight Path.” 10:25

He says also: “And when they (believers) hear laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant." 28:55

He says also, “So turn away from them (the wrong doers) (O Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ), and say: Salam (peace)! But they will come to know.” 43:89

He says also 5 times: “Truly, Allah is full of kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind.” 2:143

He says also, “It is He Who sends down manifest Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) to His slave (Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) that He may bring you out from darkness into light. And verily, Allah is to you full of kindness, Most Merciful.” 57:9

And finally,

Prophet Muhammad said exactly as you said. He said, "HUMAN IS THE BROTHER OF THE HUMAN WHEATHER HE LIKES OR NOT"

Originally posted by Islam

I am being locigal. Just how hard would it be to excommunicate them from the church? Or don't you understand what I am saying?

Here is the simplist of terms. Why don't the leaders of Islam kick them out of the islamic faith. Or are you sying there are no leaders? I mean if it is a true religion surely it has a chain of command in the church somewhere right?

I didn’t say scholars are not important!
But I said that scholars have limits that if they passed it they ill not be considered as scholars at all.
Their limits are the general rules, ideas, and theologies of the Quran.
If any scholar, I don’t care who, say any thing that contradicts Quran and claim that it is ISLAM, then his saying will be thrown in the nearest garbage!! If he believes so and say that what I believe but it is not ISLAM, then his ideas figure him and his followers not ISLAM!

For example, some groups of Turkish Islamic scholars allow women to not wear the scarf! This idea contradicts CLEAR VERSES from the Quranand has very weak proves if any and thus it is not accepted in Islam at all and all other scholars oppose that.

Another example is BinLaden! He is NOT a scholar even!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is clear you do not understand a word I said. I never once mentioned any scholars. I am talking about the leaders of Islam. Now I doubt you can answer the question, however I will give it one last try.

Why don't the leaders of Islam kick them out of the islamic faith. Or are you saying there are no leaders?

[edit on 4/25/2005 by shots]

Originally posted by Islam

Allah says in the Quran:
“O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another (NOT TO HATE ECH OTHER). Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is that who has At-Taqwa (i.e. one of the Muttaqun (pious). Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” 49:13



He says also: “And the slaves of the Most Beneficent (Allah) are those who walk on the earth in humility and sedateness, and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they say: Peace (reply back with mild words of gentleness) .” 25:63

He also says: “And We have sent you (O Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).” 21:107


He also says: “Allah calls to the home of peace and guides whom He wills to a Straight Path.” 10:25

He says also: “And when they (believers) hear laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant." 28:55

He says also, “So turn away from them (the wrong doers) (O Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ), and say: Salam (peace)! But they will come to know.” 43:89

He says also 5 times: “Truly, Allah is full of kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind.” 2:143

He says also, “It is He Who sends down manifest Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) to His slave (Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ) that He may bring you out from darkness into light. And verily, Allah is to you full of kindness, Most Merciful.” 57:9

And finally,

Prophet Muhammad said exactly as you said. He said, "HUMAN IS THE BROTHER OF THE HUMAN WHEATHER HE LIKES OR NOT"

Thank-you for sharing those quote with us. It's clear the more I read that Islam is very much like Christianity in the sense that they both teach peace and compassion. It's very sad that leaders can twist religion into reasons for hurting eachother.

For example, President Bush (and many other presidents from both major parties before him, and, I'm sure, after he is gone too) says he is doing "God's will" when they declare war on countries, organizations, etc. Bin Laden essentialy says the same thing. How can that be true though when both Islam and Christianity (as well as Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and just about any other major religion I can think of) instructs it's followers to love one another and strive for peace and fellowship above all? It boggles my mind how people can claim to be following their religion, and then start killing people without any hesitation.

I for one will never be able to hurt someone and then try to make myself feel better by saying I had no choice or that I was doing "God's will." It seems obvious to me that almost every religion in the world - including Islam - preaches peace and tollerance. I think it should be the mission, or struggle - or Jihad as you call it - of every member of every religion in the world to love one another more, and truly follow the edicts of their faith, and resist the temptation to fight eachother. It's very easy to pick up a weapon and try to hurt someone. It's much harder to resist that instinct to fight. So I believe that the more difficult of the two - resisting the temptation for war - is the more worthy of our effort.

Thanks again for sharing those quotes. I hope people really read them and don't dismiss them.

[edit on 25-4-2005 by AceWombat04]

[edit on 25-4-2005 by AceWombat04]

Originally posted by Islam

Go back to what I said earlier. I said there are 3 reasons to declare a war against someone and one of it is if we are prevented from spreading our religion.
The proof of that is not in the Quran but in prophet Muhammad’s quote.

There are several points that i want to touch, but i will leave this for some other time as it is a bit too late for me. What i do want to touch at this time is what you said above.

If you are prevented from spreading Islam, you can declare war on some country, or group. It should be allowed then for other people or groups, to spread their message and teach about their own religions to Muslims, or is this also considered as a war against Islam?

If i walk into saudi arabia and state Islam is not good for them. They will argue that it is.

If i walk into italy and state christianity is not good for them. They will argue that it is.

If i walk into israel and state judaism is not good for them. They will argue that it is.

Muhammed is prophot, jesus is prophot, moses is prophot.

Who way's is the way of GOD? or mabe it's all lies and just method's of living life.

Well my view is.

Jesus was an odd person, remarkable, but he could of just been a man with a way. New testment also very good for society.

The jewish old testment, also has alot of very good teachings that would benfit society.

You could call, judean/christian very smooth, likeable.

But Islam is very harsh, unlikeable, angry.

What should the world follow?

Christianity is my guess, if there is no god, then so what the teachings of christanity, makes human being's, with class and high moral gods...

The reality religion are idea's, philiosopy's on how people should live. Some are bad, some are god.

If i walk into saudi arabia and state Islam is not good for them. They will argue that it is.

If i walk into italy and state christianity is not good for them. They will argue that it is.

If i walk into israel and state judaism is not good for them. They will argue that it is.

Muhammed is prophot, jesus is prophot, moses is prophot.

Who way's is the way of GOD? or mabe it's all lies and just method's of living life.

Well my view is.

Jesus was an odd person, remarkable, but he could of just been a man with a way. New testment also very good for society.

The jewish old testment, also has alot of very good teachings that would benfit society.

You could call, judean/christian very smooth, likeable.

But Islam is very harsh, unlikeable, angry.

What should the world follow?

Christianity is my guess, if there is no god, then so what the teachings of christanity, makes human being's, with class and high moral gods...

The reality religion are idea's, philiosopy's on how people should live. Some are bad, some are god.

Originally posted by Islam
An experienced proof that Muslims don’t follow those BinLadenians is that NO Muslim is answering his encouraging to his stupid jihad!

Ridiculous

Originally posted by Islam
1. That is a lie, and there are no authentic hadith say that.
2. Also, Muhammad met the Syrian monk when he was 12 years old and Syrians at that time had another language than Arabic.
3. IF I believed that, Why don’t that monk claim that he is the prophet?????????? Why did he let the student to claim that he is a prophet???????
4. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, Would he knew at that time about all thesescientific theories that discovered recently?
www.harunyahya.com...
5. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, would he mention his name only 4 times while mentioning Jesus name 25 times and Moses name 136 times ???!?!?!?!?

See, you are asking the questions simply because no one can read the Qur'an without critical thinking - for to do so is foolish, there are too many contradictions based on historical evidence.

Besides Warraka, who died soon after Mohammed's first appearance as a prophet, we know of two other individuals who were well versed in the Jewish writings, and with whom he lived on intimate terms, Abd Allah Ibn Salam, a learned Jew, and Salman the Persian, who before he became a Mussulman, was successively a Magian, Jew, and Christian.

No it's not a lie, but historically documented over a thousand years before your birth - something you ignore. Instead of just focusing on reading "lessons" in the dark you should read other manuscripts of historical significance from 8th century on, which contain many teachings on Islam; although many are critical. Reading just the Qu'ran you are shutting your eyes and ears to the rest of the world and reality itself.

"The oral traditions respecting the ancient prophets, which are put into Mohammed's mouth, are so numerous, and some of them so contradictory, that no historian or biographer has been able to admit them all." Dr. G. Weil.

That is why within the 55 books we find severe paraphrasing, direct quotation, and manipulated text based on extant MSS, which predates Mohammed by 700 years. Care to argue further?

I have so far left this thread alone, but if were gonna get into the nitty gritty of displaying textual analyzing - lets have at it. You want to display the virtues of Islam - great, I have no problem with that.

However, if you're going to spend time attempting to show "authenticity" of extant manuscripts and that of the life of Mohammed, I will help you in that manner so that the audience is not ignorant of the construed mass of contradiction called the Qu'ran.

I know there are people that are trying to put Islam in better light after what so many Muslim radicals have been doing, but exagerating and posting lies is not going to help.

Islam is a religion that if people do not accept peacefully into being converted then the true followers of Islam can use other ways to bring Islam to the world, including through Jihad.

There are many moderate muslims, it is true, but it is not because the Quran does not tell them to do what the radicals do, but rather because there are also good people who are Muslims and would never do what the prophet Mohammed and the newly converted Muslims did in ancient times.

The following are some of the quotes from the Quran where we can see that it does not really preach peace.

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

(Surah 002:191)

"For the unbelievers are to you open enemies"

(Surah 4:101)

One thing of note is that one of the first things the newly converted Muslims did in the 7th century AD was to spread Islam by the sword. Most of the lands that now are Islamic were actually taken by force and through battle. Some of the lands that the Muslims conquered and even claim now are still their lands are Spain, or Andalucia, Kashmir, Jerusalem, Italy and parts of France.

I also don't know why you Islam, claim that no lands have been taken by force by Muslims, when in fact it is the contrary. The middle East was a land of many ethnic groups, but Muslim forces attacked many of these lands, which include Iraq, Iran and supposedly where Palestine and Israel are now, among some of the other lands that were conquered by force. The people of these lands were forced to either convert to Islam or pay a heavy tax for not being a follower of the religion. Most people were not able to pay such taxes so they opted to convert to Islam.

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

(Surah 004:089)

What is the punishment for a Muslim refusing to wage Jihad?

The punishment for neglecting jihad in the path of Allah

Question :

Is there a specific punishment that is deserved by those who neglect jihad for the sake of Allaah?.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

The command to wage jihad for the sake of Allaah, and the warning against neglecting jihad, appear in many verses of the Qur’aan and ahaadeeth.

If the Muslims neglect jihad for the sake of Allaah, and prefer a life of ease, and focus only on this world, they will face humiliation and scorn, and all their affairs will be corrupted. They expose themselves to the wrath and anger of Allaah, and they expose Islam to loss and defeat at the hands of kufr. Hence neglecting jihad is a major sin.

Ibn Hajar said in al-Zawaajir:

The 390th, 391st and 392nd major sins are neglecting jihad when it becomes an obligation, which is when aggressors enter the Muslim land or when they seize a Muslim, and it is possible to rescue him from them and the people neglect jihad altogether and when the people in a region neglect to fortify their borders so that there is a risk of the kuffaar overrunning them because of that.” end quote.

Excerpted from.
salafiyyah-jadeedah.tripod.com...

So, for going after terrorists who are Muslims, a Jihad can be waged.

Let's see what else do the Muslim texts say.

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

(Surah 005:033)

Corruption would be any people who tries to teach or follows another religion which is not Islam and tries to teach Muslims about these other religions. So, Muslims can go to any country and spread Islam, yet other people who follow other religions cannot do this, and they will be killed or forcefully expelled from Muslim lands if they do, which is exactly what has been happening in many Islamic countries.

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(Surah 009:005)

So pretty much suicide is a crime to Muslims, but it is not when they kill themselves fighting in Jihad agaisnt the infidels. So, suicide bombings are allowed as long as it is done in the anme of Allah and for his cause.



[edit on 26-4-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

What is the punishment for a Muslim refusing to wage Jihad?

That has got to be the single most important question in this whole thread and in general. I'm going to tell you a fact and I don't care what Muslim comes on here to dispute it. Please not the following is an example of reality.

Mujab lives in America and works at one of the big three, has kids and a family. He is a nice guy and keeps to himself. He prays towards Mecca five times a day as required behind the machines at work in a makeshift cardboard area amidst the oil. He is a kind man that wouldn't hurt anyone. He is a good worker and has never been disobedient, or violent to anyone.

Asad is Mujab's nephew visiting America. He is an active working HAMAS member who has been involved with numerous bombings. His idenity, of course, has never been known. Mujab detest's his nephew based on what he knows he has done. Their views on Islam differ dramatically. However, Mujab's brother is adamant as is his brother in law that Asad be taken care of while in America. So Mujab drives him around on errands, knowing the man may committ terrorist activity. Mujab is obligated by Islam to aid Asad in his Jihad and he believes he, who is peaceful will receive a great reward for aiding a warrior. However, he still doesn't like it. Regardless of Islam Mujab's brother would lose faith in front of HAMAS if Asad was not taken care of. Mujab was already threatened with being labeled a coward for Islam if he did not help, but worse he would be shunned and ridiculed in Lebannon as would his family name for generations for not helping such a man as Asad. So he does what he must and would never admit such for to do so would only incriminate him. The End.

Now you wonder why we have cells in America? What I just displayed is fact and real and goes on every day on our soil. How do you like them apples? Paints a new face for Islam doesn't it?

It is clear you do not understand a word I said. I never once mentioned any scholars. I am talking about the leaders of Islam. Now I doubt you can answer the question, however I will give it one last try.

Why don't the leaders of Islam kick them out of the islamic faith. Or are you saying there are no leaders?

What do you mean by this term “leaders of Islam” ????
I don’t understand!!

Leaders of Muslims are the scholars(sheikhs, imams, whatever) who preach people.

Do you mean by “Islam leaders” the presidents and kings of Muslim countries??

Be clear and specific please

Thank-you for sharing those quote with us. It's clear the more I read that Islam is very much like Christianity in the sense that they both teach peace and compassion. It's very sad that leaders can twist religion into reasons for hurting eachother.

For example, President Bush (and many other presidents from both major parties before him, and, I'm sure, after he is gone too) says he is doing "God's will" when they declare war on countries, organizations, etc. Bin Laden essentialy says the same thing. How can that be true though when both Islam and Christianity (as well as Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and just about any other major religion I can think of) instructs it's followers to love one another and strive for peace and fellowship above all? It boggles my mind how people can claim to be following their religion, and then start killing people without any hesitation.

I for one will never be able to hurt someone and then try to make myself feel better by saying I had no choice or that I was doing "God's will." It seems obvious to me that almost every religion in the world - including Islam - preaches peace and tollerance. I think it should be the mission, or struggle - or Jihad as you call it - of every member of every religion in the world to love one another more, and truly follow the edicts of their faith, and resist the temptation to fight eachother. It's very easy to pick up a weapon and try to hurt someone. It's much harder to resist that instinct to fight. So I believe that the more difficult of the two - resisting the temptation for war - is the more worthy of our effort.

Thanks again for sharing those quotes. I hope people really read them and don't dismiss them.

You are welcome dear AceWombat.

An I am with you that Christianity is like Islam in this issue.

And you say a very perfect point that is ((TERRORISTS ARE FOUND IN EVERY CULTURE RACE AND RELIGION)) and we can not judge a whole religion and his billions of followers because of some individuals,

May Allah guide you and bless you and gather you with the holy Jesus (Peace and Blessings upon Him) in paradise.

There are several points that i want to touch, but i will leave this for some other time as it is a bit too late for me. What i do want to touch at this time is what you said above.

If you are prevented from spreading Islam, you can declare war on some country, or group. It should be allowed then for other people or groups, to spread their message and teach about their own religions to Muslims, or is this also considered as a war against Islam?

To spread your religion in a Muslim countries (except Mecca city) is allowed and not a war against Islam. The Proof is that many Muslim countries that were under the Islamic Empire for centuries still have churches, priests, and they still spreading their thoughts.

For example, my country, Syria, has about 9% of Christians and the rest are Muslims and those Christians are living in peace and harmony with Muslims. Moreover, although they are minorities, Christians have special programs in Sunday on the main Syrian channel!!! And no Muslim imam is against that because that is their rights as citizens.

Another example is that on Christians holidays such as Christmas, Christians over there celebrate that very widely and with no single attack events and if you go to Damascus on Christmas, you will see the places that has the majority of Christians full of the decorations that found in any other Christian countries and here are some photos of 2005 Christmas in Damascus
oldamascus.com...

Thus, spreading one’s religion PEACEFULLY in Muslim countries is allowed except in Mecca city.

But Islam is very harsh, unlikeable, angry.

What should the world follow?

If you say something, you have to give proof for it. Otherwise your saying is not hearable and not acceptable.

Read please my previous reply when I mentioned quotes from the Quran and I color them in blue and red.

Besides Warraka, who died soon after Mohammed's first appearance as a prophet, we know of two other individuals who were well versed in the Jewish writings, and with whom he lived on intimate terms, Abd Allah Ibn Salam, a learned Jew, and Salman the Persian, who before he became a Mussulman, was successively a Magian, Jew, and Christian.

So what?

If an Educated Jew or Christian become a Muslim, then is that means he tough Muhammad!!!

Brother, Salman, Warraka, Abdallah bin Salam, and allothers are NOT that idiots to teach Muhammad and arrange a game that he will be the prophet and they are the followers!

And there is a VERY important issue to know. ISALM is NOT a new invented religion. It is the religion that completed the previous revelations.

Allah says : “He (Allah) has ordained for you the same religion (Islam) which He ordained for Nuh (Noah), and that which We have inspired in you (O Muhammad ﻢﻠﺳﻭ ﻪﻴﻠﻋ ﻪﻠﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﺻ), and that which We ordained for Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion).” [42-13]

He says also, “Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam).” [2-136]

And if you didn’t got it yet, and you still arguing that Muhammad learned that from his students and followers , then what is your answer for the other things that I said it before ???

quote: Originally posted by Islam
1. That is a lie, and there are no authentic hadith say that.
2. Also, Muhammad met the Syrian monk when he was 12 years old and Syrians at that time had another language than Arabic.
3. IF I believed that, Why don’t that monk claim that he is the prophet?????????? Why did he let the student to claim that he is a prophet???????
4. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, Would he knew at that time about all thesescientific theories that discovered recently?
www.harunyahya.com...
5. IF Muhammad invented the Quran, would he mention his name only 4 times while mentioning Jesus name 25 times and Moses name 136 times ???!?!?!?!?

__________________

The following are some of the quotes from the Quran where we can see that it does not really preach peace.

quote: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (Surah 002:191)

I will not explain very much.

I will let the verse that is before that verse and the verse after it to answer you.

Allah says:

190. And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.

191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

192. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[2: 190-192]

Did you read the whole set now ??
And did you notice who is playing games and copying and pasting with no knowledge.

Here is the Quran. Search as you like I am not afraid:

quran.nu...

All Praise and Glory be to Allah.

The following are some of the quotes from the Quran where we can see that it does not really preach peace.

quote: "For the unbelievers are to you open enemies"(Surah 4:101)

Again and Again.

Your copy+paste game is OVER!

Read the Whole verse:

Allah says in the Holy Quran:

101. And when you (Muslims) travel in the land, there is no sin on you if you shorten your Salaat (prayer) if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you, verily, the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies. [4:101]

Did you know right now what types of disbelievers are our enemies? They are those who we fear that they might attack us.

Again:

Did you read the whole set now ??
And did you notice who is playing games and copying and pasting with no knowledge.

Here is the Quran. Search as you like I am not afraid:

quran.nu...

Praise and Glory be to Allah.

What is the punishment for a Muslim refusing to wage Jihad?

quote: The punishment for neglecting jihad in the path of Allah

Question :

Is there a specific punishment that is deserved by those who neglect jihad for the sake of Allaah?.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.
The command to wage jihad for the sake of Allaah, and the warning against neglecting jihad, appear in many verses of the Qur’aan and ahaadeeth.

If the Muslims neglect jihad for the sake of Allaah, and prefer a life of ease, and focus only on this world, they will face humiliation and scorn, and all their affairs will be corrupted. They expose themselves to the wrath and anger of Allaah, and they expose Islam to loss and defeat at the hands of kufr. Hence neglecting jihad is a major sin.

Ibn Hajar said in al-Zawaajir:

The 390th, 391st and 392nd major sins are neglecting jihad when it becomes an obligation, which is when aggressors enter the Muslim land or when they seize a Muslim, and it is possible to rescue him from them and the people neglect jihad altogether and when the people in a region neglect to fortify their borders so that there is a risk of the kuffaar overrunning them because of that.” end quote.

Excerpted from.
salafiyyah-jadeedah.tripod.com...

1. The website name is “Salafy” And this is another name for “Wahhabies” and they are the wxtrimest Muslims who are located mainly in Saudi Arabia and all those terrorists are produced by their stupid thoughts that wasn’t in the whole Muslim Empire that stayed for centuries.

2. If you are in military and BinLaden came and killed some of your relatives and then you escape like braveless, do you think that you are doing right or wrong? Isn’t this the biggest humiliation??

quote: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surah 009:005)

Again and again as previous games.

Can you read the first 10 verses of this chapter??

Read it in understanding and then put your game with no cutting what you like to hide.

But before you read that 10 verses, I have several notes abput these verses:



1. Allah says in the NEXT verse immediately: “And if anyone of the Mushrikoon (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.” [9:5]

Did you notice right now that killing “them” whenever you find
“them” is for soldiers who break their oaths???



2. Allah says in the PREVIOUS verse immediately:

“Except those of the Mushrikoon with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqoon (the pious).” [9:4]

Again and again !!!

Did you know who we should kill? They are those who break the oath that Muhammad made it with them when they killed two Muslim tribes.

Read the Bibliography of Muhammad before claiming knowledge


3. Allah says after several verses:

“Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.” [9:13]

Did you see right now WHY Muslims should fought them ??

The rest of the points you will discover it by your own when you read the first 10 verses of this Chapter that is about wars and hypocrites.

ALL PRAISE AND GLORY TO ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL THE MOST COMPASSION.

posted it by mistake...

[edit on 27-4-2005 by Bl00D_Th0rN]

Originally posted by Islam
1. There is nothing call Burka. It calls Hijab

Know that... Afterall i speak arabic. But i found out that it's the word mostly used here...

2. Women have been raped every day since the dawn of history till now. And thus, Hijab is to reduce the percentage of that crime. And if you look to any statistics, you will see Islamic countries are among the less countries in that crime.

As i said this way was useful in the past but now??? especially that u obligate women to wear it ( I know some wear it willingfully but not all of them...)

Furthermore I do think that the so-called "problem" with islam is the fatwa because it allows Cheikhs to legitimise acts such as those done by Bin Laden... Hehe i remember a fatwa in Egypt that forbids the government to widen a certain road... It may be a pillar of Islam but it has been misused

Originally posted by Islam

quote: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surah 009:005)

Again and again as previous games.

Can you read the first 10 verses of this chapter??

Read it in understanding and then put your game with no cutting what you like to hide.

But before you read that 10 verses, I have several notes abput these verses:



1. Allah says in the NEXT verse immediately: “And if anyone of the Mushrikoon (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.” [9:5]

Did you notice right now that killing “them” whenever you find
“them” is for soldiers who break their oaths???

So if a person seeks protection and to hear the word of Allah, he is safe, meaning if he decides to accept islam. Isn't this exactly what some clerics were telling Osama that he should have given the US a chance to repent and accept Islam before he attacked?

Originally posted by Islam
2. Allah says in the PREVIOUS verse immediately:

“Except those of the Mushrikoon with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqoon (the pious).” [9:4]

Again and again !!!

Did you know who we should kill? They are those who break the oath that Muhammad made it with them when they killed two Muslim tribes.

Read the Bibliography of Muhammad before claiming knowledge

3. Allah says after several verses:

“Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.” [9:13]

Did you see right now WHY Muslims should fought them ??

The rest of the points you will discover it by your own when you read the first 10 verses of this Chapter that is about wars and hypocrites.

ALL PRAISE AND GLORY TO ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL THE MOST COMPASSION.

I have tried that, i used to have a link to the Quran in my old pc, with the whole Quran being translated by a Muslim. I do not have that link anymore, so i had to find other websites.

But I have read in the past those parts and all i found was that if you accept Islam then you are safe.

BTW, you did not anwser my previous question, about what happens when someone from another religion goes to an Islamic country to preach another religion instead of Islam.

Islam,

Hopefully people can begin to understand that really they are the same and they are just friends/brothers and that there is no need to fight.
I hope that it happens soon, but im not sure it will.

In the UK there is alot of pressure against Tony Blair because of the Iraq war, and the majority of people in the UK were not in favour of it, however having said that, he may still be elected again.

There are alot of muslims here some of them are very good people, some others are not, even so, most people at the moment get along ok it seems.

The politicians have their own agenda I feel, and they like to do their best to scare people into supporting their ideas, which is a shame.

Like i said, hopefully we can stop terrorising each other eventually and be friends. Its only the sick politicians and Al-Qaeida that want to fight. Everyone else is friendly.
I hope they dont invade Syria


Adam
London, UK

[edit on 27-4-2005 by AdamJ]

Not for me to say. But if I could say.. Get the Hell off this thread and while your at it - off the machine ats..
But that's only my thoughts.

Dallas

Originally posted by AdamJ
Hopefully people can begin to understand that really they are the same and they are just friends/brothers and that there is no need to fight.
I hope that it happens soon, but im not sure it will.

Yeah like Richard Reid, who likes to stuff explosives in his shoes? This is not fantasy land. There are screwed up people out there who will kill ya for $500.00 or for a fanatical fantasy, or a real legitimate reason. That will never change. It's a hostile world we live in, always has been.