Demoralizing our troups while they fight our enemies

Mr Carb,

I am aware that it can be disheartening for the troops to see a lack of support back home.

Two points however;

1) They knew this war was unpopular before they left so it should come as no surprise.
2) You made it quite clear that you felt it was putting them in increased danger, if not actually causing some deaths, when people back home protested against the war.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

I am aware that it can be disheartening for the troops to see a lack of support back home.

Two points however;

1) They knew this war was unpopular before they left so it should come as no surprise.
2) You made it quite clear that you felt it was putting them in increased danger, if not actually causing some deaths, when people back home protested against the war.

Cheers

BHR

Ok great. Thanks for the questions that we can now get down to buisness and discuss. I appreciate your participation.

First off let me say: I have a few friends of my own that participate in protesting, so it is not my intent to try to suppress anyones rights to choose what they do to express their opinions. Also, forgive me if i am incorrect, but i think i remember you mentioning you have family of your own involved in this war. Just so that we are clear, i respect and understand your choice to protest or not support the troops as you wish.

Here is my view: I am not a big fan of this war either. As mentioned earlier i have a brother, a buddy, and a co-worker who are enlisted and currently over seas. I do not wish for them to be there any more than most of the rest of us. Most of my family and the majority of my friends do not support the war (as you mentioned, it is unpopular), however refuse to protest so that the soldiers that we know or don't know don't have to go day to day with this in their minds effecting the way they protect their lives and achieve their missions. If i could have a battalion of soldiers as guests online to share with you i would, however i am left to only hear from the soldiers i know and the information i can research on. THis is why i do feel that most protesting and negative communication with our soldiers can effect the death toll, and endanger our soldiers further than they already are.

I believe that supporting/not supporting the war and supporting our troops is very different. You can do your best to give morale and encouragement to your loved one on the battlefield, yet not support the ultimate ones to blame which are the administrations that put them their. What the best way is.....I don't know. I believe it can be a double edged sword by standing out in the street and protesting as i mentioned before there is a flip side effect from doing that. My main concerns are the negative mail sent to soldiers, the negative rejection they somtimes get from enraged citizens when returning from duty. This should be directed at the administrations, not the soldiers. .......this is my thought and reasons behind this post. I know its debatable, and i welcome positive debutal.

Carburetor

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

Originally posted by cargo
Anyone who tells me they fight for my freedoms and then turns around and tries to oppress my opinion or judge my loyalty to the nation, is a hypocrite and an enemy of freedom.

My forefathers did not fight and die so that some self-righteous ego-maniacs could lay down their own parameters for where they think my freedom starts or should end.

Let this be clear.

Sorry, but i never tried to suppress anyones freedoms or ability to express their opinions. I simply offered a topic covering the flip side of not supporting our troups, as this is a debate & discussion based website. Others here chose to drag this into a match between supporters or non-supporters of the war. And in that case, is it not fair that you have your opinion and i have mine? .....and for the self righteous ego maniac comment?....You go to far man. You don't know me. I've done my best to stay respectful in my views, as you would have noticed that appologized to a few people if i in any way offended them. ......and the hypocrite comment goes both ways as i have been shot down just as much in this thread for trying to express my opinions as well.

Where in my post do I address you?

Cargo, if you were not directing your post at me...then i appologize for believing so. The vibe was that it was directed at me. It seemed to reflect that i intended to suppress your rights, however that was not the intention of my thread. ......My bad if i falsely accused you of attacking me.

Carburetor

Mr Carb,

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

Those that are protesting against what our boys are doing over seas you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and i completely respect that. However the flip side is that you should think about how you are effecting our soldiers in the field. You may be subjecting them to the very death that you claim to be protesting against.
[edit on 4-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

This was part of your original post. The bit I am trying to get you to clarify is the last sentence. Can you expand?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

Those that are protesting against what our boys are doing over seas you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and i completely respect that. However the flip side is that you should think about how you are effecting our soldiers in the field. You may be subjecting them to the very death that you claim to be protesting against.
[edit on 4-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

This was part of your original post. The bit I am trying to get you to clarify is the last sentence. Can you expand?

Cheers

BHR

My thoughts on that last sentence are while protesting that soldiers don't belong where they are ...and that the war is unjustified, you wish less unnecessary death and our soldiers to come home. On the same token, i simply stated that the flip side is that you may be also be subjecting them to the same unnecessary death by demoralizing their efforts. The morale of soldiers in war has always played a big factor in any war i have ever known. And as indicated by word of soldiers themselves as well as researched information and those who work with them, when they don't have support at home it directly effects the morale of their efforts.

This is the more novel like explanation of that sentence. Hopefully it sheds some better light on the intentions of this thread.

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

Those that are protesting against what our boys are doing over seas you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and i completely respect that. However the flip side is that you should think about how you are effecting our soldiers in the field. You may be subjecting them to the very death that you claim to be protesting against.
[edit on 4-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

This was part of your original post. The bit I am trying to get you to clarify is the last sentence. Can you expand?

Cheers

BHR

My thoughts on that last sentence are while protesting that soldiers don't belong where they are ...and that the war is unjustified, you wish less unnecessary death and our soldiers to come home. On the same token, i simply stated that the flip side is that you may be also be subjecting them to the same unnecessary death by demoralizing their efforts. The morale of soldiers in war has always played a big factor in any war i have ever known. And as indicated by word of soldiers themselves as well as researched information and those who work with them, when they don't have support at home it directly effects the morale of their efforts.

This is the more novel like explanation of that sentence. Hopefully it sheds some better light on the intentions of this thread.

Yes, you're right, but this isn't Vietnam (which what happened in Vietnam), and most people haven't treated it like Vietnam (they've learnt their lesson). I think our soldiers these days are intelligent enough to know the difference between those that have been anti-war, and those that were anti-soldier. They know that they have the full support of the former, and the latter are such a small minority in this nation that they can easily be ignored. They can even count support amongst the Green party, who were the most vocal against the war. To lump anti-war people with anti-soldier people doesn't help anyone.

I don't think any of us would like it to become as extreme as Vietnam.
Many of us did learn our lesson and that is part of the reason why i created this thread.......Me being a troop supporter i don't wanna see the demoralization get out of control because i have family members, friends and co-workers that are involved. Sure, non-war supporters and non-troop supporters cannot be lumped, as i believe i stated in a few past threads. I strongly believe its possible to be unfavorable with the war, yet give your full support and encouragment to the troops.

If every soldier was a robot and could simply ignore any unfavorable opinions of them, then there wouldn't be as much concern. However once again they are human and when they see people not supporting them, carrying an unfavorable opinion of them it digs down into their abilities to concentrate on their missions. The ones who ridicule them and accuse them of killing innocent people. The ones who say their cause is flawed and they don't belong. This strips their motivation and creates a timid effect that allows the insurgents or terrorists the possible strength to continue on with their targeting. My buddy told me himself before he left that with all the unfavorable support going around he was afraid to go over there and have to defend himself against an enemy that is so hard to decifer between an insurgent/terrorist/or innocent person in the public. He doesn't wanna live with an accidental killing on his conscience. Or the ridicule of all those who don't seem to understand what they are going through over there.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

Mr Carb,

I guess I am not making myself clear here.

I would like you to tell me why you feel a soldier who has witnessed an anti-war demo back home suddenly is in greater danger than before?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

I guess I am not making myself clear here.

I would like you to tell me why you feel a soldier who has witnessed an anti-war demo back home suddenly is in greater danger than before?

Cheers

BHR

Maybe the soldier, or any soldier for that matter thinks and knows that they are doing a hell of a job.

When they see people protesting against the troops, it will obviously demoralize them.
Once they get the feeling that they are no longer thought of as doing a good job, it will give them a sense of 'what the hell'. They may not be as 'switched on' as they were previously. They may even take greater risks, therefore putting their life in danger. Its all about feeling negative in what you are doing.

If you are told you are doing a job good, then it makes you feel worthwhile. If you are told you are doing it badly, then it has a negative effect on you. This happens in civilian life too.

Anyways, thats my interpretation of what i think Carb means. But i could be wrong so don't flame me.

people protesting against the troops

- Bikereddie

an anti-war demo

- BillHicksRules

These two things are not equivalent and should nto be presented as such.
If people were actually protesting against the troops then maybe their morale would fail but since (very very few, if any) people are protesting against the troops personally the only reason the troops would be demoralised is if the protests were being twisted to implicated anti-troop intent.

Cmdr,

The attempt to combine the two is a favourite tactic of the pro-war brigade.

Cheers

BHR

I am anti war, but pro for the troops. Maybe you may have read some of my past post's?

I'm not saying you are directing the last post at me, because i have not combined the two arguments at all. I know some have, and they are two totally different issues.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

I guess I am not making myself clear here.

I would like you to tell me why you feel a soldier who has witnessed an anti-war demo back home suddenly is in greater danger than before?

Cheers

BHR

You know what BillHicksRules.......I don't know how much clearer i can make my points as i did in my last few posts. Are you looking for my thoughts?....or you are you looking for somthing that you just wanna hear?
Im talking about (anit-war demo) and the Morale effect it has on a soldier.......Black and white, please review my posts again if you cannot understand. It seems im starting to have to repeat myself again and again with you.

Not all anti-war protest is reflected directly towards the troops, however i see more and more of these people ridiculing our troups. I don't know how many times i've run across people that simply state that our troops are murders and don't give damn about anyone or anything and just shoot whatever moves. I still believe anti-war protests overall can have an effect on soldiers as they can still see it as a "hey! you guys don't belong!!" "You guys are doing the wrong thing".

.......Look those who wish to protest the war, and protest for our soldiers to come home that is your decision and your right. Once again my thread offered a different perspective on how you could be causing a negative effect on our soldiers. I'm not here trying to strip anyone of their rights,...im here to debate my thoughts on topics like everyone else.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

Mr Carb,

"Look those who wish to protest the war, and protest for our soldiers to come home that is your decision and your right. Once again my thread offered a different perspective on how you could be causing a negative effect on our soldiers. I'm not here trying to strip anyone of their rights,...im here to debate my thoughts on topics like everyone else"

That is the thing, you have made mention several times of what effect you think anti-war protests have but you have not backed this up.

It may be your opinion that you do not like the fact that people are not happy with the conduct of the US forces abroad, but their feelings do not have an actual physical effect on the dangers faced by said troops.

If you can prove otherwise I am happy to listen.

Cheers

BHR

No, it seems proof or evidence of such doesn't mean much to you BillHicks, cause i provided examples from the word of soldiers themselves, as well as Links and such. There is a seach engine called "google" you might also try this.

And for christ sake, i never stated that the moment someone protests, that bodies start automatically and immediately falling dead in the field. I said that "protesters MAY be subjecting our soldiers to the death that you are protesting against" ***This means you may be effecting them mentially, putting them at risk at the same time you are trying to save them from being where you believe they shouldn't.***

Anyways, I'm done going back and forth with you. Your intent isn't to add anything helpful to this thread, but to simply bark and hastle those who have actually provided some thoughts and insight to somthing that you refuse to open your mind to.

Cheers!

What would you have them do carb?
Not complain?
Go along with the war?

Mr Carb,

If you go about making unsubstantiated statements please do not get upset when others do not agree with you.

You made a statement, I asked you to back it up, you could not and then you get angry at me.

Maybe in future when you make a statement you might like to think about qualifying it.

Opinions are most welcome, however passing them off as fact is not.

You have posted several quotes of soldiers who felt upset that there were people back home using their right to free speech. These are important quotes in so far as they show that the troops are real people and not just statistics.

What these quotes do not show is what you stated. The protests have no effect on the danger faced by the troops in Iraq.

I respect your right to feel that those who protest are un-patriotic and disloyal to the troops. That is your right. Just as it is your right to speak out on this issue.

I am also aware that you have gone to great lengths to say that you respect the right of the protestors to protest and I am glad you feel that way.

All I would ask is do not take a train of thought or opinion beyond what is reasonable.

Cheers

BHR

I fail to see how exercising the very freedoms the troops are there to protect is in any way "demoralising" or potentially dangerous as some would love us all to believe.

It seems that sadly some just don't get the fact that it is our ability to live in a society of 'freedom' to express freely that is our very strength.

Protest the war, not the soldiers (although that doesn't mean we should give a 'bye' to war crimes IMO)

I have yet to meet the anti-war protester who was anti the troops, that is just the rather cheap, nasty, transparent and rather crude propaganda of the war-fan element.
Afterall 'the troops' are our sons, brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces and friends too.

(.....and I personally have yet to meet the soldier that was anywhere for any length of time who was a 'fan' of the war he/she was involved with either.)