Demoralizing our troups while they fight our enemies

Frith,

even if what you are saying is true, and Bush and Co. managed to get us into war on baseless premises....
the troops in Iraq are still fighting to protect our nation.

I mean, is it really wise to go in, tear down a regime, and then leave a vacuum as the central power to the region? The taliban would move in and create another afghanistan!!
We're stuck there until the Iraqis can hold their own...live with it.

and well, pressure washinton to help Iraq get in a position of ruling themselves instead of trying to make a satallite nation out of her, which, I can't help but think was his original intention.

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
Whether he did or didn't have WMD has not been fully proved on either side. The conclusion that "They couldn't find any" doesn't mean there wasn't a threat.

Maybe you missed this news article, but the President's own WMD Comission called the inteligence used to gain support for the invasion of Iraq "Dead Wrong".

Here is the link
www.cnn.com...
(if for some reason you hate CNN, click oin the following link for your choice of news service
news.google.com...)

I think that kind of kills any doubt in the fact that there were no WMD in Iraqi.

Negativenil

I saw the article and read it when it first came out. However it more or less states that our intellegence knew little about Iraq's WMD. This is where i have stated consistently that i agree that the war may not have been justified according to our accusations Saddam had WMDs. I still think its up to the individual to pass his own decisions on whether saddam really had them or didn't. Im not willing to put it off, because i think Saddam was capable of having them, getting them, and using them on us.
My point here is not that i justify 100% of what our administration has done, as i stated earlier. Its about giving support to the troups.

Originally posted by dawnstar
Frith,

even if what you are saying is true, and Bush and Co. managed to get us into war on baseless premises....
the troops in Iraq are still fighting to protect our nation.

I mean, is it really wise to go in, tear down a regime, and then leave a vacuum as the central power to the region? The taliban would move in and create another afghanistan!!

It is alleged that al Qaeda were responsible for 9/11, not the Taliban. The Taliban are only alleged to support al Qaeda. As far as actual al Qaeda agents being convicted over knowledge of 9/11, that hasn't even happened yet so all the exclamations in the world over al Qaeda being guilty has never even been proven in a court of law. There was one man convicted in Germany, but his conviction was overturned after the only evidence against him, witness testimony, was thrown out because it could not be trusted. The Taliban, if they had any role in it at all, which I highly doubt, was only in providing safe harbor for al Qaeda agents. If al Qaeda is basically wiped out at this time as its alleged, then what issue would there be concerning a threat to U.S. peace if a Taliban regime actually did take over Iraq? The answer is none.

We're stuck there until the Iraqis can hold their own...live with it.

I am living with it. I haven't died over it yet, or not that I can tell anyway.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Frith]

Thank god for the Internet...it's one good source of amusement, when there is nothing on TV. Where is the amusement, you might ask? well, here it is:

These troups are our Fathers, our brothers, our sisters, or our mothers.
They put their lives on the line for us every day. They endure the unimaginable so that we sitting here at our desks can enjoy our moca and donuts in peace.

I don't believe all these people that come right here really believe all that...they just play the right-wing role, just to kickstart a (flamable or not) conversation. So, let's give'em a big LoL and our blessing...you really made us laugh today.

it is being said that by protesting the war that also means the protest of the soldiers that are fighting it. most would understand that it is against the government not the boys and girls in uniform. yes it will still affect the soldiers as they realize that some do not support the war. i would seriously doubt however that they would see it as a personal attack.

it is not as if this was a war being waged upon the us. this is a war of agression that has been labled as a war to prevent war. where are the wmd's? haven't found any yet. so the government changed tactiics they now call it a war to free the innocent from opression. that is bs as most know. if they had done this after freeing kuait then they could have argued this a little bit better after all sadam had invaded a neibour. this is also when i started to hear about saddam's treatment of some of his people. so why did we wait so long? easy the us had nothing to gain yet so why worry after all it was a sovern nation.

i would like to remind the troops of one thing. at the nurenburg trials it was decided (with us involvement) that military personell could not use "following orders" as any excuse for any missdeeds. this means that technicaly if this "war" is found to be wrong internationaly that every soldier could be found guilty along with their leaders. any soldier that does anything contrary to the geneva convention can not say that they were just following orders, they will be guilty. to bad if you don't follow orders you are guilty of treason. if you are ordered to do something you had better think realy hard about wheather you should follow it or not because if your superior is wrong it will be your neck on the line. you may already guilty of breaking international law just by participateing in the war.

just because of that don't think that i feel that i am against the soldiers. personaly i feel that the nurenbourg trials were a farce. but remember the us had a lot to do with it so they realy can't whine about it. they helped to set the president that may be used against them.

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
My point here is not that i justify 100% of what our administration has done, as i stated earlier. Its about giving support to the troups.

I understand this - and my point is that protesting *IS* support for our troops. Silence and blind support for the white house supports no one but the white house.

Our brothers were placed in harm's way - over a lie. For someone to decide their lives weren't valuable enough to be spent on a meaningful and truthful conflict (which is what they signed up for), but instead be sent to invade a county that has done nothing to us... that just makes me sick.

Yes, i know Saddam was a rotten guy - and we have helped to make him the man he is today, but we have gone about removing him from power in all the wrong ways and now 1538 of our brothers and sisters have been killed.

Think about that for a second. That's 1500 little brothers who will never play catch with their older brother again. That's 1500 mothers crying over the loss of their son or daughter. That's 1500 people who were sent to death... over a lie.

How does your type of support actually help our troops?

"The Taliban, if they had any role in it at all, which I highly doubt, was only in providing safe harbor for al Qaeda agents. If al Qaeda is basically wiped out at this time as its alleged, then what issue would there be concerning a threat to U.S. peace if a Taliban regime actually did take over Iraq? The answer is none."
---------------------------------------------
well, let's see, we went in and overthrew saddam, the main force that kept the extremists at bay in his own country, albiet with brutal tyranny. If we then commenced to pull out of Iraq now, and left the country unprotected from these extremists...like the taliban.....well, I think it would pose a threat to our security!!! It would completely kill whatever is left of our respectability in the world!!!
It's bad enough that there are signs that a taliban like gov't is taking over part of the country....the bombing of barber shops, harassing of women, ect are too similar to the crap they pulled in afghanistan. I wouldn't wish life under taliban rule to my worst of enemies, and I hope the Iraqis don't find themselves in such a predicament!!!

This nation is going to fall apart....I swear
Will left wing and right wing ever get along?
This is a highly debatable topic and we all should remain respectful of each other. I appologize if i offended any one.

Frith: If you were a boxing fan and during the boxing match you told your boxer...."Your not suppose to be fighting this guy" " this is a mistake!" "you can't win!"
Is that the kind of Demoralization you want on your boxer?.....yes yes i know we are talking about a war with real lives here and not some game. HOwever the general idea and demotivation is the same. I respect your robustful argument on not supporting our troups, however i think a more motivating and positive approch to getting our troups through this is a better path. Once again yell at the administration as you will, but support our troops too the fullest as they are your people.

Why don't you save yourself a ton of typing and just come out and say you don't think citizens should be allowed to protest the war? I mean it sure seems like that is your real feeling.

One can protest the war without calling our troops murderers, baby killers, etc. One can protest the war without putting down the troops who are there fighting it. It's all about how you say things. Criticize the leaders that WE elected (or didn't elect), but not the ones who are doing their duty of carrying out their orders and fighting for this nation.

Guerilla warfare is dirty business, and the bad guys aren't always identifiable. In combat, split-second decisions make the difference between life or death, and sometimes those decisions are wrong. They then have to live with that, but civilians also have a duty to get to a safe place and cooperate. If more did that, they wouldn't get killed via collateral damage. Nobody wants a single civilian to die, and we've done more to avoid that than any invading force in history. We've spent a million dollars on a smart bomb to take out a C&C center that's worth maybe 100K, just to avoid killing the house next door....

I hate people like frith. Someone like frith muddies the waters for those of us that were genuinely and simply against the war. Views like that easily become associated with the protesters, when for most of us, such is not the case.

I don't forgive the administration for what it's done, nor will I ever. That has never translated into being unsupportive, much less insulting, to our troops. I sincerely thought that we, as a nation, had learnt our lessons from Vietnam. Most of us have, but a rather vocal minority hasn't. Even the Greens have learnt what it means to be anti-war/pro-soldier, and they have been amongst the most vocal about their anti-war stance.

Personally, I don't want us to pull out at this point in time. That would be too dangerous, not only for Iraqis, but also for us. It would leave the Iraqis in poverty, and poverty has been more directly associated with "terrorism."

Originally posted by Frith

Originally posted by dawnstar
Just how do you propose that they leave....it's a long dangerous walk home from Iraq!!!

Walk, run, jog. Whatever it takes.

Frith, you have made yourself look really naive and insensitive with this post and others preceding it on this thread. Hopefully, you were just doing this to play 'devil's advocate, and it's not how you really think.

[edit on 4/4/2005 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
These troups are our Fathers, our brothers, our sisters, or our mothers.
They put their lives on the line for us every day. They endure the unimaginable so that we sitting here at our desks can enjoy our moca and donuts in peace.
How we view them and support them at home directly effects their ambition and drive to complete their tasks on the frontline.

www.azconservative.org...

www.pabaah.com...

Those that are protesting against what our boys are doing over seas you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and i completely respect that. However the flip side is that you should think about how you are effecting our soldiers in the field. You may be subjecting them to the very death that you claim to be protesting against. This post does not mean that i support 100% of what our administration has been involved in. However, these soldiers are our own people and allies helping our own people. These are citizens and blood from your own country. Irregardless of the circumstances you should be supporting your own countrymen in time when they are fighting for their lives and our lives.

The causes and subjection of war will always be debatable. Protest the administration if you will, HOwever DO NOT demoralize your own Fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters when they fight on the front line for you!!

This is simply another side to think about when supporting or protesting the war. This is meant to respect both side opinions and can be debatable. Just keep our soldiers in mind....support them and respect them irregarless the circumstances.

Carburetor

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

So ummm you want us to just acept the war because it might cause deaths?

Originally posted by negativenihil

I understand this - and my point is that protesting *IS* support for our troops. Silence and blind support for the white house supports no one but the white house.

But can't you comprehend the simple concept that your "protest in support of our troops" gives the enemy the will to fight on because he thinks people like you mean this country is weak? That your protests actually have the opposite effect of prolonging the war by making the insurgents think all they have to do is hang on a little longer until people like you destroy the backbone of this country's military?

But maybe that is the real goal of people like you and Frith.



[edit on 4/4/2005 by centurion1211]

If they dont protest then how will they get thier message across that they dont support the war?

DEVILWASP SIR,

I never stated that anyone not accepting the war demoralizes our troups. In fact you'll find many people who do not support the war or accept the war, in turn........they still give support to our troups. Once again the point is the "demoralization of the troups on the frontline"...not... "supporting or not supporting the war." Also for those wishing to protest, thats fine. I'm simply offering a flipside view to how it effects the minds of loved onces over sees.

Carburetor

Originally posted by centurion1211
But can't you comprehend the simple concept that your "protest in support of our troops" gives the enemy the will to fight on because he thinks people like you mean this country is weak? That your protests actually have the opposite effect of prolonging the war by making the insurgents think all they have to do is hang on a little longer until people like you destroy the backbone of this country's military?

So basically, you're telling me to shut up and fall in line, otherwise the bad guys will win!

Piss off. Seriously. If any insurgents took the time to read my sign or listen to what i'd have to say, they would know my anger is directed squarely at the white house. If having a voice makes us weak... what does silence bring us?

But maybe that is the real goal of people like you and Frith.

Do yourself a favor and go back to the begining of this threat and read everyone one of my posts, before you make yourself look any more ignorant.

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
DEVILWASP SIR,

Looks at SCC Flashes....nope they aint changed....Dont call me sir...

I never stated that anyone not accepting the war demoralizes our troups. In fact you'll find many people who do not support the war or accept the war, in turn........they still give support to our troups. Once again the point is the "demoralization of the troups on the frontline"...not... "supporting or not supporting the war." Also for those wishing to protest, thats fine. I'm simply offering a flipside view to how it effects the minds of loved onces over sees.

You never stated it but it was definately implied or ethier I'm so tired and anoyed I'm seeing non existant threats...
For those that protest they know how it effects the troops over seas and they do think carefully about thier actions...

Mr. Carburetor,

NO! It's not correct to always support your troops. It's irrelevant whether or not you agree with government's policies and it's irrelevant wheter (like you have said) they are someone else's sons, daughters, friends, fathers etc. etc. : it's not correct to always support your troops.

I am sure as hell I won't support my country's troops when they march (again) under the banner of the Waffen SS committing acts of genocide -irrelevant whether I agree with or disagree with government policies, or whether they are sons, fathers etc. I have my own code of ethics and morals.

Blobber

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Blobber]

Were fighting for our rights!

But dont you go using them rights or your comforting our enemies!

Just watch sports and shut up.

How dense can people be, its a patriotic duty to double check everything that goverments do, and protests when it deliberately acts against the interests of the people its supposed to represent.

Its bad logic, i dont support this war, its being fought for the wrong reasons and we were lied to to convince the populace of England and the US to support it. However that doesnt make me stand against UK troops or anything like that, i want them to come home so less of the die!