Demoralizing our troups while they fight our enemies

He lied to the UK not just england......

Sorry!

In the south its possible to forget about everywhere else in the UK.

Originally posted by Blobber
Mr. Carburetor,

NO! It's not correct to always support your troops. It's irrelevant whether or not you agree with government's policies and it's irrelevant wheter (like you have said) they are someone else's sons, daughters, friends, fathers etc. etc. : it's not correct to always support your troops.

I am sure as hell I won't support my country's troops when they march (again) under the banner of the Waffen SS committing acts of genocide -irrelevant whether I agree with or disagree with government policies, or whether they are sons, fathers etc. I have my own code of ethics and morals.

Blobber

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Blobber]

Blobber, i agree. That isn't a good time to support your troups. However prove to me that the US soldiers are committing genocide and maybe i would be out their protesting as well. Until then i will always be supporting our troups as they are fighting for some you peoples very freedom and safty to protest.
.....imagine that......

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Frith

Originally posted by dawnstar
Just how do you propose that they leave....it's a long dangerous walk home from Iraq!!!

Walk, run, jog. Whatever it takes.

Frith, you have made yourself look really naive and insensitive with this post and others preceding it on this thread. Hopefully, you were just doing this to play 'devil's advocate, and it's not how you really think.

Why is that? Why be a hypocrite and support troops and not the war they are fighting? I am not a hypocrite and will not partially support anything I am against. If you are against the war the troops are fighting then you are against the troops as well. To not do so is to actually support the war. Which I will not.

Devilwasp,

I appologise for calling you SIR. My intentions were to reply to you respectfully. HOwever there was no need to be rude. I never attacked you and claimed your thoughts were completly wrong. In fact i simply stated what my intentions were with this post to you.

Thank you,

Carburetor

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
I appologise for calling you SIR. My intentions were to reply to you respectfully.

My aplogies to you for snapping...
Its been a trying nite and I am tired...sorry..

HOwever there was no need to be rude. I never attacked you and claimed your thoughts were completly wrong. In fact i simply stated what my intentions were with this post to you.

Your intentions about supporting troops seemed pretty obvios.....

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
Blobber, i agree. That isn't a good time to support your troups. However prove to me that the US soldiers are committing genocide and maybe i would be out their protesting as well. Until then i will always be supporting our troups as they are fighting for some you peoples very freedom and safty to protest.
.....imagine that......

So what is it Mr Carburetor, we must support our troops because they are fathers, sons, daughters, etc. -as you have stated previously and implying you must always support your troops?

Or is it (as you in the above stated) because they fight for "freedom" and "safety"? Thus implying to support your troops only when they fight for "freedom" and "safety"?

Blobber




[edit on 4-4-2005 by Blobber]

ITs both Blobber, Its not rocket science.

Obviously if America's intentions were to create genocide around the world then their is always an exception. However America has never done such a thing. Saddam and his murderous regime were hardly innocent. Sure maybe the US shouldn't be the world police. However once again im not going to Demoralize our soldiers in the field by attacking their motivation and ambition to acheive their mission. Giving the terrorists more reason to fight. If you wish to drain the soldier's morale (who may or may not be your own people), go right ahead. Im most definitely will not.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
ITs both Blobber, Its not rocket science.

Obviously if America's intentions were to create genocide around the world then their is always an exception. However America has never done such a thing. Saddam and his murderous regime were hardly innocent. Sure maybe the US shouldn't be the world police. However once again im not going to Demoralize our soldiers in the field by attacking their motivation and ambition to acheive their mission. Giving the terrorists more reason to fight. If you wish to drain the soldier's morale (who may or may not be your own people), go right ahead. Im most definitely will not.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

Ok, let me get this straight. You agree with me that sometimes you must not support your troops even when they are fathers, sons, daughters, friends etc. In the example of the Waffen SS you won't support them. Conlusion: it boils down to personal code of moral and ethics.

Secondly, you use the word freedom and safety. Both laden words in politics and heavily subjective. Conclusion: also the meaning of "freedom" and "safety" boils down to personal code of moral and ethics.

So, the final conclusion is, whether or not you must support your troops is highly subjective!

Blobber

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
when they fight on the front line for you!!

Nobody is fighting for me. The enemy is not on my soil, it is the adminstration that is taking rights away from citizens, not Saddam Hussein or the insurgents in Iraq.

No active member of the armed forces has raised arms against the government to stop oppression by the powers that govern in this country since the Civil War.

So everyone should stop the bogus claims of "fighting for you" and "Fighting to preserve the rights you enjoy", its a deception, and any smart person can see right through that.

Lets all remember that our armed services failed to protect a single of the 3,000 lives that were lost on 9/11. 40 Million soldiers, and not a shot fired in our defense. 10,000 New York residents affected by the fallout of those towers, is the Military footing the medical bill for their negligence? No they are sucking even more money from the American pocket.

How many bombs dropped on Afghanistan in the name of "protecting us"? 4 Canadians murdered "protecting our freedom", how many people slaughtered at wedding parties "to protect the freedoms", etc etc.

Most of the 40 Million soldiers would willingly shoot American citizens if they were ordered to do so.
Spend any time with a soldier or two and you will see my point, they have contempt for most civilians, its brainwashed into them at boot camp and beyond.

This may not be 100% the case, but neither is it a 100% guaranteeable fact that our troops are fighting to defend any single one of us.

We don't have to demoralize them, all they have to do is ask "Why am I doing this?" and their morale goes into an instant slump, because the answer is "I'm following the orders of liars, thieves, and rich elitist scum who never saw the face of war."


[edit on 4-4-2005 by Legalizer]

Mr Carb,

"As a family member of as soldier over sees, the demoralization of our soldiers puts him at more risk of both death and unessessary ridicule for serving his country"

Lets split this up a second. How does a protest in the US or UK put the life of a soldier in Iraq at more or less risk of death?

As to the ridicule aspect, huh? The troops in Iraq are there due to an illegal order. There are rules regarding this yet none have taken this route. You fight in response to an illegal order you are a criminal. The least you can expect is some ridicule.

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 5-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]

"liars, thieves, and rich elitist scum "


who, if you believe some of the stories, couldn't even provide working guns to the troops.....

gee, I wonder how demoralizing that is, to be sent to war, without the equipment necessary to do the job!!!

or to have policies handed down ordering you to abuse prisoners you were never fully trained to handle, but then when it's uncover, you get hung while the brass on top who came up with the orders remain untouched!!!

How many times in the past few months have we seen pictures on the tv of the masses in other countries gathering in protest about their leadership, and well, THEY LEADERSHIP WAS FORCED TO CHANGE!!!
no violence was necessary to bring it about.

Don't protest the troops, don't protest the war....
protest the liars, thieves, and rich elitist scum that we have in office at this moment and get them the heck out of office....then well, we can sanely and intelligently decide what the next step is, and well, if it is decided that we should remain in Iraq....AT LEAST OUR TROOPS WILL HAVE REAL GUNS, THAT FIRE REAL BULLETS, along with real armored vehicles. And, these men, when they come home broken might have a better chance of recovering, and carrying on with their lives, getting the treatment that they need, and such.

That's if the american masses can be pulled away from the tv and malls for a few days to make the sacrifice necessary to protect their country.

Dawnstar,

Have you read any of Al Franken's work?

Cheers

BHR

"Al Franken's work? "

don't think so...why?

Dawnstar,

I think you would like it. I find it very enjoyable. Like Michael Moore for the more educated individual.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by Legalizer

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
when they fight on the front line for you!!

Nobody is fighting for me. The enemy is not on my soil, it is the adminstration that is taking rights away from citizens, not Saddam Hussein or the insurgents in Iraq.

No active member of the armed forces has raised arms against the government to stop oppression by the powers that govern in this country since the Civil War.

So everyone should stop the bogus claims of "fighting for you" and "Fighting to preserve the rights you enjoy", its a deception, and any smart person can see right through that.

Lets all remember that our armed services failed to protect a single of the 3,000 lives that were lost on 9/11. 40 Million soldiers, and not a shot fired in our defense. 10,000 New York residents affected by the fallout of those towers, is the Military footing the medical bill for their negligence? No they are sucking even more money from the American pocket.

Most of the 40 Million soldiers would willingly shoot American citizens if they were ordered to do so.
Spend any time with a soldier or two and you will see my point, they have contempt for most civilians, its brainwashed into them at boot camp and beyond.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Legalizer]

Not a lot to comment on this post, as it contains ignorant ill-informed statements. Since when have our soldiers never faught for us? Those who have died and their family members will surely spit on you for such a statement. And as far as your ignorance on 911, it is not our soldiers responsibility to stop commercial airliner jets with passengers from hitting buildings within the US. Blaim that on the combination of failed US intelligence and most of all on the culprit terrorists involved. Your example of 911 is as stupid as this....If someone drives by and shoots through the window of a house and kills a little girl....do you blame the little girl?

And your comment on "US soldiers would shoot innocent citizens if ordered to do so"........is completely obsurd. Most of these soldiers are plain human beings with a heart like most US citizens. Like my brother who is in Quatar right now. He has a wife and 3 kids. Like my buddy stationed in Afghanistan, who has a girlfriend and baby on the way. Like my co-worker who is on the front lines in Tikrit and Kirkuk. He works in a structural engineering office and has a family himself.

It is you who is twisted on the image of our soldiers....not I.

Mr Carb,

Have you decided to simply ignore any posts you think are to hard to answer?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by Frith
Unless I suddenly became insane, I will never support voluntary and willful killing of human beings. If these were involuntary conscripted draftees, maybe it would be different, but this is not the case. This war is absolutely wrong and obvious to most at this point. Those who are fighting over there were allegedly supposed to do so in defense of the nations they originated from. They are not and it has been proven that they are not now. If they cannot figure that out and get out of the situation and return to their home countries to one day become defenders of their nation, then I cannot support them.

If our countries and their leaders wish to continue these police actions, then an actual international police force that does more than shoot everything that moves will have to be created. Using lethal force even after the conflict is allegedly over as is the case with Iraq and Afghanistan is not something that is going to create a stable region free from violence. The collateral damage as its called creates rebellion from those who have suffered the loss of their family and friends.

Protesting soldiers to demoralize them is one of the only ways for the anti-war crowd to do anything about wars that are taking place at that moment in time. Since policy makers do not stop these wars even with protests, demoralization of the fighters of these wars to eventually stop the war itself is about one of only things that can be done outside of violent revolution against the system that began the war. Wars are fought these days primarily for profit. Once soldiers become demoralized enough to stop fighting, business cannot continue and the war has to end. This is basically what ended the Vietnam Conflict though I doubt protests against soldiers had much effect in that case. Attrition in the battlefield itself was the biggest factor.

OH MY GOD I can't believe someone would be so idiotic and shameless to even say something like that. What about the poor farmboy who wants to go to college, who enlisted in the army to get the GI Bill to pay for college, or the single mother who couldn't make ends meat who joined to feed her child. I guess you just didn't think about that. No one askes to go to war they do so because they are told to. And if you think by demoralizing them will help end this war then your just not as smart as you think you are. And really I can't think of anyway you would be demoralizing them because the ones that they care about and the ones that the opinion counts the most will never try and demoralize them would never do so. I feel sorry that you embrace the Freedom you are not willing to defend.

Originally posted by demosthenes
OH MY GOD I can't believe someone would be so idiotic and shameless to even say something like that.

Shameless and idiotic to admit they dont want to fight?
Are you now setting terms for citizenship?

What about the poor farmboy who wants to go to college, who enlisted in the army to get the GI Bill to pay for college, or the single mother who couldn't make ends meat who joined to feed her child. I guess you just didn't think about that.

So by showing 2 extreme cases that makes him wrong and bad?

No one askes to go to war they do so because they are told to. And if you think by demoralizing them will help end this war then your just not as smart as you think you are.

Yes they dont ask to go to war but they go anyway..why because thier ordered. Who orders them?
The government....who's the government? The men and women we the people elect...who do they report to? The people....aka the civilians...
Their doing everything they think is "right" to stop the war, just as you think supporting the war is "right"...
I cant believe people think that because its demorilising then they shouldnt do it....the freedom of speach is demorilising...tht shouldnt be done to...the freedom to join the services or not SEVERLY weakens their number therefore demorilising them....should we reintroduce national service?

And really I can't think of anyway you would be demoralizing them because the ones that they care about and the ones that the opinion counts the most will never try and demoralize them would never do so.

Firstly everyones opinion matters, if you cant accept this just follow the leader...
Secondly theycare about every single one of us since they agreed to stand and fight for us unless your trying to say they are fighting simply because they believe in one polition....

I feel sorry that you embrace the Freedom you are not willing to defend.

Defending freedom is not for everyone....they can play thier part....because he does not fight doesnt make him a coward....simply that he advocates violence...

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

Have you decided to simply ignore any posts you think are to hard to answer?

Cheers

BHR

No BillHicksRules,
Some of us unfortunately have to work for a living and i don't spend 24 hours a day online. I can't reply immediately to everyone's comments. If you read back in the thread i have done a good share of posting. I've laid my thoughts on the line respectfully give or take a few defensive moments that i admit to. Replies to some posts would simply be feeding a fire, as it is a take this side or that side decision.

The topic surrounds support for our troops.....not support or non-support for the war. There is a difference, as most probably don't support the war, however most still support our troops because they are not the administration who put them their. But they are our families and loved ones we all relate to. I think the context of the support or not support factor for the war got taken way out of proportion in this thread. My mistake was probably for addressing protesting in a broad manner. I have a problem with the protesters who despise our soldiers and support sending negative letters to soldiers which is demoralizing. I myself have family members and friends who don't need to hear this guff when they are trying to protect their lives and achieve their missions in Iraq.

Carburetor