A trap for the intellect

a reply to: jedi_hamster

such suggestion may be considered a trap as well. if what i said isn't a trap, then there's no "outside" since the "outside" would be equal to nonexistence, and your excercise in thought starts looking like denying one's very nature.

One can do it, step outside that is. One just has to realise that there is an outside when one is inside, say catholic egregore et al. So too with the Hermetic and the Kabalistic. Those sephiroth in practice look more like a transport system. Though I must admit I am not game to step inside one of those.

If one steps outside far enough from the earth and it's boundaries, one can look back and see the geometric constructs as things existing within a nothingness. I gotta admit one won't survive for long out there. My own experience was of loosing my sense of existing/being.

the one possibility that could bridge both points of view is an existence of more than one god, but that brings a problem. if a god is infinite and omnipresent, across all time and dimensions, and all possible universes are contained within, then you're facing some dillemas when trying to bring another, separate god, into equation. one, if they can coexist in the same space and if not, if they're even aware of each other and can confirm each other's existence. two, what is their very nature that brought them into existence. if you'll consider god's "I AM" a singularity which erupts into all that is, including all possible versions of all that is, then in theory every other god should be identical, and everything that exists within should be identical as well.

I think there may be some over reaching in some theoretical considerations such as "across all time and dimensions".

To make sense of it all and simply be able to navigate, I use a six dimensional model of length X width X height X inside X outside X motion. The fae taught me that so I could get out of human thought constructs, and other things.

In this way, infinite closed spaces can exist as standard geometry in a practical manner.

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a reply to: jedi_hamster

or perhaps you're missing the point entirely, and it's a clue as to how one can know everything.

Maybe I am, it is difficult to know what the original author intended in "Know Thyself".

I guess it depends on one's point of view. If one takes the view that everything is one, "oneness", then the idea of arriving at truth seems reasonable. However if one comes from the point of view that not everything is one, "separate Beings", then the idea is of arriving at the knowledge of one's own limited self, and the discovery of boundaries of what is and what is not me.

Just depends I guess. Everyone seems to ignore the idea of separateness and preferring oneness.

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a reply to: jedi_hamster

instead of treating god as a point, or even as a box you wanna get out of, treat god as a connection between everything.

you want mindf..k, think fractals.

In a practical sense, one can find gods within the spiritual worlds of man, other p[alces too. Even the old Greek places can be found, the fields of flowers is one of my favourites. No one there these days, I have it to myself. Persephone and ol' Hades don't mind.

I'm not really sure any more what "god" is in 21st century western terms. Yourself and peeple seem to be describing a god I have not come across.

In regards to connections, there are networks of consciousness a lot like the internet with all the infranets overlapping. Not all are connected with each other. The fae for instance don't have access to all humans for instance.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Chop wood, carry water. What was then doesn't change what you are now. Carpe diem.

Yah, best to stay out of those places and just live one's own life. The world would be a peaceful place.

a reply to: glend

But in my experience one can step outside the thought by becoming thoughtless. There exists a void at the core of our being. That does not exist in everything. Nor does any thing exist in it.

To look between two thoughts.

Even then one can meet some interesting Beings in there.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: TzarChasm

If everyone went to bed at the same time, our world would cease to exist without someone awake to observe and "collapse the wave function".

And in the quantum realm that's apparently the case.

Here at the macro scale all the same our observations matter about as much as an ant or pebble, if such a thing could observe anything.

Schrodinger's society has to keep the light on for our survival.

I like that one its rather apt.

Odd, I notice that the spiritual worlds are, for me at least, like the "wave function that collapses" that yourself and TzarChasm are talking about.

From my signature: Collective consciousness is very much like a dream. When the last dreamer stops dreaming the dream disappears.

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

Born and raised hippy in a catholic country. You can probably never fully escape from that background. But I like to think I'm inclusive, the part that matters to me is to keep searching. Peeps have tried a lot to figure out how to reconsile the beast and the genius within our nature, I don't think anyone was successful yet.
Or maybe some were, but it's a gradual process. I sincerely hope we are the generation that figures it out and we set humanity on a path to being gardeners, proliferating harmony through the universe.
But I think to achieve that we'd need superpowers, like Jedis kind of. Just that the force, is the intelligence that creates coincidences.
When the Abrahamic God is involved it gets messy, bloody often, revenge and death. What I felt in those moments I was sure I was in touch with God, it was just beautiful, loving and humbling. That's what I'm trying to 'unlock'.

I was in Rome, it is full of demons. Also beautiful don't get me wrong. Anyhoo I think I met Jesus there. Poor guy is in pain and angry. However the interesting aspect is proof of concept. That there is a key for the lock, to get us one gate closer to perfection.
Good things came out of it too, right? Out of Rome, Christianity, the West. Even If it sort of was mostly another lesson of what you try to avoid/surpress will find a way.

a reply to: Nothin

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

Just depends I guess. Everyone seems to ignore the idea of separateness and preferring oneness.

To quote a song "we are one but we're not the same". I can only speak from personal experience and it seems to me the more I've learnt myself the more I can understand others and then the less I see the differences.

I guess in a way that's boxing interactions or framing pictures so to speak and frankly it needn't be about positive things that encourage personal empathy and understanding, we can see the dark fairly easy too like when an elephant decides to suicide or a highly stressed dog mauls a child. I'm alluding to the fact that basic emotions, feelings and desires are shared by all yet for some reason most humans consider a lot of actions foreign when the reality is they're consequences of emotions that are usually dormant in most.

In my world people just ban dangerous dogs which is understandable but isn't coming from a place of understanding! All dogs can do things we deem worthy of death. Just my take on a very old saying, I'm honestly unsure what wave they were on at the time... I may be way off.

There's also the fact I can't perceive the world as I did yesterday, something that's seemingly human that they shared too. Apply that thought to others and you can learn to appreciate the difference, maybe even understand how they arrived where they did.

Awesome thread btw you come across as very considerate on topics that usually have people pushing agendas. It's refreshing!

a reply to: Peeple

I sincerely hope we are the generation that figures it out and we set humanity on a path to being gardeners,

The gardeners has crossed my mind too at times, like Nature is waiting for me to just do that with the attitude of a gardener. I get the feeling of more than just a few people too.

Rome and a lot of old Europe, the church has settled in France to my eye more than anywhere else. I guess they had the big historical clean-out of the "pagan" and settled. Yeah a lot of demons over there.

A decided dark side to the Abrahamic religions. I looked "Abrihamaic" up and found the term is inclusive of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I guess many of my encounters are dark from having 'friends' on the disapproved of list. I spose it has soured me towards the western religions. They destroyed so much to make a place for themselves.

Good things came out of it too, right? Out of Rome, Christianity, the West. Even If it sort of was mostly another lesson of what you try to avoid/surpress will find a way.

I guess good does come out of it. I see people happy to live within it. The architecture alone is impressive, the time taken for people to come together and build it with such detail.

My own view is that one will probably find something internally, rather than the outwardly in the collective consciousness. Perhaps that is just me.

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

No it's definitely inwards. It's a little sad that the Eastern influenced to overcome the ego occupied the void left behind by overcoming the senses of Western mysticism.

a reply to: RAY1990

'day Ray1990.

My ex-ish wife has the second sight at times. One day watching a news program she said "that dog was trying to protect the child". She meant there had been some 'unseen critter' upon or attached to the child, That being the target of the dog and not actually the child. She thought it was unfair the dog was being put down; a tragedy in many ways. What was done was done and people act according to what they understand.

Taking the time to understand I can relate to, it developes an intellegent empathy. "Oneness" and "empathy" seem to go together. Yet like bringing up kids of our own, there is a time for separateness too. Too much empathy and whacking them on the behind becomes impossible. That did for me, one whack on the behind and I folded at the hurt look on my kids face. Never did it again.

I get the impression that folks often get so "one" with their chosen 'thing', it seems to take over the person within. Like the people who are "just doing their job" can do terrible things they could never do otherwise.

If there was a reason for this thread, it is perhaps my frustration at seeing people not know that there is actually an outside and they are inside. Be it nationalism, religion, family and even their jobs. There is a knack to stepping outside, it can be done even for just a brief time to think about things.

And thanks.

a reply to: Peeple

No it's definitely inwards.

For me it is too Peeple. That said it is also doing things outwardly for others that changes us from within.

Ol' Terence McKenna is on to something I must agree. But one can get into trouble with ATS T&C. I wonder though, in practical application, if the concept of re-wiring the brain in this fashion is not without peril. I remember some work with Ibocaine(?) and the opate addictions. Re-wiring seemed to over come the re-wiring of the poppy.

And what is it with the preoccupation with demonising "ego"?

Unless they mean the "professional ego" if I may use that term. Like the "professional" mystic sitting in a cave dispensing wisdom. Or the policeman who doesn't take off his hat in the evenings. Even the experts in their positions within organisations.

Ya know, those things we are taught to be, rather than "the sense of being me".

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

If there was a reason for this thread, it is perhaps my frustration at seeing people not know that there is actually an outside and they are inside. Be it nationalism, religion, family and even their jobs. There is a knack to stepping outside, it can be done even for just a brief time to think about things.

You can lead a horse to a well but you can't expect it to draw water!

I want to say it all depends on the illusionary nature of free will in the end. It could be that everything is reactionary processes like cogs in a machine. Not sure I'm good at the 'out of box' thinking yet I'm considering the implications of not having freewill to be equally profound as having it. Wouldn't it allude to a reason for all that can be comprehended being played out?

Idk, my thinking is too circular on the matter to offer anything useful!

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

Well if the worst thing people can say about him is he was too optimistic and idealistic, he for sure must have been on to something.

However inwards doesn't deny the outwards exists and has influence. But it takes practice to tell them apart and it's smart to start with the inward.

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

I wouldn't care to speculate there NobodySpecial268.

As the only world i have came across thus far is the one we are on.

How are they like the collapse of a wave function?

a reply to: Terpene

The air pressure diffrence is only significant if there is a surface onto which it can act.

Our Earth has a surface and atmosphere.

You seem to think your senses are a 1to1 representation of your surroundings.

No i dont, probably best not to tell others what they think Terpene, i mean i could play that game also.

Im well aware of how or brains create the reality we think we experience from the external inputs our senses receive and the shortcomings in that department that come with it.

The composition of reality happens in a place that is well protected from everything "real".

Where is that now?

a reply to: RAY1990

You can lead a horse to a well but you can't expect it to draw water!

Yeah, I know : (

I want to say it all depends on the illusionary nature of free will in the end. It could be that everything is reactionary processes like cogs in a machine. Not sure I'm good at the 'out of box' thinking yet I'm considering the implications of not having freewill to be equally profound as having it. Wouldn't it allude to a reason for all that can be comprehended being played out?

Idk, my thinking is too circular on the matter to offer anything useful!

"free will" is another one of those philosophical monsters that can be argued. I dunno for sure, but to me at least, it seems like it could be another trap for the mind in order for "something" to have compliance and acceptance.

It would be awfully and suspiciously convienient for everyone else if "no freewill were true. Hmmmm . . .

The concept would help "PTB" map out and create their version of the future if everyone were compliant and didn't swim against the flow.

Spirals are circular, they get you places ; )

a reply to: Peeple

Well if the worst thing people can say about him is he was too optimistic and idealistic, he for sure must have been on to something.

Timothy Leary was another. We probably have those two guys to thank for the music of the Moody Blues.

However inwards doesn't deny the outwards exists and has influence. But it takes practice to tell them apart and it's smart to start with the inward.

I've been doing some practical work with "early onset schizophrenia" with a young girl and her mother. Long distance stuff. I have learned a lot in there. Showing promise yet still too soon. One of the problems I try to avoid is useing labels like "schizophrenia". People tend to identify with "labels" and sink in deeper making the work more difficult than need be.

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

Freewill is an interesting notion.

Have you ever read about the experiments Benjamin Libet carried out?

Mr Siff raises some interesting questions that surround the topic of freewill in this short video, i think he was even a member here at ATS at one point.

a reply to: andy06shake

Where is that now?

You answered your question yourself...

how or brains create the reality

No ray of light, no pressure wave, no surface texture has ever reached the brain...

Sound is the description we use to define the thing our brain does with air pressure diffrence, if no ear and brain to translate that wave into sound is present no one would hear it.
Obviously the cause and reaction of a physical incident will still be present, like a tree displacing air creating a pressure wave in the air around.

I'm thinking even inanimate objects are contributing to the collapse of wave functions. They have to in order to manifest.

a reply to: Terpene

Our brains may create the reality we perceive from external signals, but the greater reality exists outside our minds, else our senses would not be interpret anything.

Cause and effect are the colour of our day Terpene same with the rest of the universe where causality rules.

As to inanimate objects collapsing wave functions, that's a bit above my pay grade or understanding, far as i can establish wave functions collapse down to interaction with the external world.