Some of the Roswell Riddle examined

Cool thread, thanks

Will read some more, I miss these kind of threads.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
Many of these researchers, Friedman, Randal, etc. have come to the Roswell case with a pre-existing belief in other UFO/alien connections. Therefore that bias plays a part in the whole exotic material, alien bodies 2nd site elsewhere narrative. In this case, we have these incredible claims of materials and alien bodies PHYSICALLY on Earth. Why would I, or anybody, bypass the need for that physical evidence of an extraordinary life changing event such as this for just taking their word? I find that ridiculous and again demeaning and showing a lack of respect for what would be the most amazing discovery in human history. Talk is cheap, anyone can say anything, people lie. We need to demand accountability. Not just blind acceptance.

Again, Mogul is a fact backed up with facts. Mogul moving to Alamogordo is a fact backed up with facts. Mogul flights were launched in June/July 1947 which is a fact backed up with facts. Alamogordo is 90 miles away to the south of the crash site which is a fact. Service and research flights were being launched at that time backed up with facts. Arrays were trending/being windblown towards Roswell at that time which is a fact.

We have an overzealous reporter with a STORY without facts to back it up and it's "true". Is that the naivety of the human mind to just accept whatever amazing claim is true? Or is it to use our inherent evolutionary critical thinking skills in the process to decipher that amazing story? For me and I think it should be the latter.

As I've said since the '90s on this and many other UFO forums you have people such as Friedman, Randle, et al who smell financial riches and notoriety from the gullible who number in the millions. The most popular cases such as the Hills, Walton, and a few others jumped on the money bandwagon and it doesn't matter that their claims were explained prosaicly the gullible ate it up. We, the intelligent, got interested and they gave us a chance to develop investigator skills and deep research so that we could be sure of standing on solid ground when we discussed with the difficult-to-convice that what they believed in was not based on logic and common sense. But we know that it's the same as beating our heads against the wall that doesn't exist for Friedman, Randle, Schmidt, Hopkins and all of the "famous" authors who I think were/are "smarter" than us. But I'd rather not be rich off lies. I enjoy thinking that regardless of the financial differences we are better people than the scammers because we deal with the truth which is more satisfying than a thick bank account.

originally posted by: mirageman
Another set of facts.

The International UFO Museum in Roswell was founded by Glenn Dennis (the mortician who made up the story of Nurse Naomi Self seeing a live alien) and Walter Haut (RAAF public information officer who issued the press release confirming recovery of a flying disc).

Haut's own story about his involvement expanded as the years went by.

In the 1980 book, 'The Roswell Incident', Haut denied being a witness of any sort, claiming Col. William Blanchard ordered him to write and distribute the press release.

In UFO Crash at Roswell, Haut said he knew "nothing" about the materials recovered, but now Marcel told him that "he didn't believe it was of this planet".

Haut's affidavit of, 1993, added "I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is there any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken".

Around the same time Glenn Dennis and Walter Haut had founded the International UFO Museum and Research Center.

By 2000 Haut claimed to have witnessed an alien craft and a body in a hangar on the base and being present at a senior staff meeting where the cover-up of events was discussed.

In December 2002, Haut also signed a sealed affidavit in which he went into more details about the craft, debris, bodies, and cover-up.

It's clear who profited from Haut's ever expanding story. However I don't see too much of a problem with these type of tourist attractions.

But look who's on the bill for the 75th anniversary this year....www.roswellufomuseum.com...

Unbelievable how some "deranged" individuals think they can change history but we are here to tell whoever wants to listen to rely on the original sources and historical facts. If I could speak at that event I would tell the audience "Now I'd like to introduce to you the biggest bunch of con men and liars who enjoyed taking your admission fee while laughing behind your backs and be glad the #1 scammer, Stanton T. Friedman, the pseudo-Nuklera Feeseecist" is gone to the big bank in the sky".

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

I understood you, I think.
I was just saying we can’t assume our experience is like others. Though on some level there are similarities likely

One thing is we often forget this universe is unimaginatively huge and consequently likely unimaginatively diverse. Like maybe eternal and we little mortals definitely have problems with grasping eternity.

BTW, in physics, there is something called steady-state which doesn’t buy the big bang theory. Though the BBT is the main theory accepted in most physics.

The Big Bang Theory (BBT) is pseudo "science". Since "creation" there hasn't been a single human that could explain what happened. And no modern theorist can come up with one either. The topic is not worth any effart!

a reply to: idusmartias

Well, you know believe it or not I agree with that.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: idusmartias

Well, you know believe it or not I agree with that.

Great! There's hope for you yet!

a reply to: idusmartias
You cant find the truth when the approach to this case is based on he said she said only. Lectures and author$ jump aboard knowing true believers are willing to believe and buy into it based on faith. An existing story can be built upon this claim. Factual data had no place in this STORY.

Okay, we have a ranch hand that thinks HE finds a crash of one of these saucers that has been made popular by the media of the time. To him the material IS exotic but is human-made when he describes it in the newspaper aticle. It's not like any weather balloon material he has has found previously. Thats a true statement. The construction is the same but they had to use more balloons, more radar targets etc. It's a repeated statement that there was 'so much of it'. Compared to a one ballon, one radar target, and a radiosounde transmitter he would have found previously, there would have been so much of it comparatively. True statement.
 
Those statements have been spun to favor the UFO-alien community. Back in 1947 during the Kenneth Arnold flap and popularity, riding that wave would have been a huge boost to the Roswell papers. THEY may have finally captured one these saucers that's been talked about lately. When in fact it was not an alien craft. One man THOUGHT it was. I can say no craft was found with confidence because there's never been evidence, scientifically proven evidence of Roswell or physical evidence through association in 70 YEARS. 70 YEARS of opportunities and nothing, ever? Stanton Friedman and UFO authors were taking advantage of the opportunity. I can't say as I blame them seeing as part of their livelihood is from these stories. Base Roswell in facts people, not words. 

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Your op from 2017 was outstanding and is in my ATS favorites of all time along with a lot of mms Ops too. Guys like you and him and many others here have been a great source for my UFO research.

a reply to: idusmartias

"Hope is a good thing and a good thing never dies"


Shawshank redemption...

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: idusmartias
You cant find the truth when the approach to this case is based on he said she said only. Lectures and author$ jump aboard knowing true believers are willing to believe and buy into it based on faith. An existing story can be built upon this claim. Factual data had no place in this STORY.

Okay, we have a ranch hand that thinks HE finds a crash of one of these saucers that has been made popular by the media of the time. To him the material IS exotic but is human-made when he describes it in the newspaper aticle. It's not like any weather balloon material he has has found previously. Thats a true statement. The construction is the same but they had to use more balloons, more radar targets etc. It's a repeated statement that there was 'so much of it'. Compared to a one ballon, one radar target, and a radiosounde transmitter he would have found previously, there would have been so much of it comparatively. True statement.
 
Those statements have been spun to favor the UFO-alien community. Back in 1947 during the Kenneth Arnold flap and popularity, riding that wave would have been a huge boost to the Roswell papers. THEY may have finally captured one these saucers that's been talked about lately. When in fact it was not an alien craft. One man THOUGHT it was. I can say no craft was found with confidence because there's never been evidence, scientifically proven evidence of Roswell or physical evidence through association in 70 YEARS. 70 YEARS of opportunities and nothing, ever? Stanton Friedman and UFO authors were taking advantage of the opportunity. I can't say as I blame them seeing as part of their livelihood is from these stories. Base Roswell in facts people, not words.

Truer words were never spoken. What I find sort-of puzzling is not the physical aspects of the event 'cause we all know what transpired and the temper of the times. But the mental set of the principals is the part that's still puzzling. Unless the info is on documents that are in storage, what were the conversations like? All of the principals knew about balloon trains coming down in the area. Mogul was different only in the amount of equipment that was included but I cannot accept that this mighty and important base was not familiar with the balloon activity only 90 miles away and I cannot accept that the base commander and his staff had not been brought in on Mogul info. And why did they agree on coming up with a historic lie about capturing a flying saucer when that lie would have alerted the Russians to more extreme action to see what they could learn about higher technology than a mundane weather balloon? The secret conversations are the real mystery about Roswell.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: idusmartias

"Hope is a good thing and a good thing never dies"

Shawshank redemption...

Well, it's a nice saying but not true and realistic. Family members grouped around a family member in a hospital bed hope that the patient will be cured and some are. But others do not survive and hope goes out the window when the family member dies. Hope can be temporary, but it can die. You can "cross" your fingers but eventually you'll have to uncross them.

Some people think politicians talking about Roswell and UFOs is all new.

But old Bill was talking about it all in equally ambiguous terms back in the 1990s when addressing citizens of Northern Ireland.



It is not known if the "Ryan" who allegedly wrote him the letter asking about Roswell really existed.

Someone mentioned it earlier and perhaps another good addition to this thread is the theory (it's only a theory) by James Carrion (former MUFON Director who resigned over the manipulation and fallout from the contract with Bigelow in 2009).

In a nutshell his theory is that various tales of flying discs and other stories were being seeded into the press to fool the Soviets into believing that a new secret weapon was under development. The goal was to prevent World War III and to both expose both Soviet and break their cryptic codes. In other words, it was a psy-op. The Soviet Union had not as yet managed to build a nuclear device but the British and Americans were already investigating several individuals for leaking secrets.

I touched on the topics raised by the book in this thread here : The Roswell Deception

But it's been freely available as a PDF for some years now at this link : The Roswell Deception - James Carrion (download link).

It's well worth a read for those with an open mind. Even if you disagree with the theory. It also gives links to hundreds of contemporaneous news reports and documents as reference sources.

a reply to: mirageman

Forgot to add this with Bill talking to 'Smithy' last night : Link to the relevant part

Or around 5m 20s into the embedded vid below.

originally posted by: mirageman
It is not known if the "Ryan" who allegedly wrote him the letter asking about Roswell really existed.

Here…..try this…

Clinton Presidential Library and Museum

Presidential Library’s sometimes contains UFO nuggets…..

If the Letter from Ryan of Belfast is legit…..it should be archived at Clinton’s library. Maybe online at the Digital Library within …the Clinton Library….look for it.

Perhaps this narrows it down….. clinton.presidentiallibraries.us...

Here’s from the speech…….. That letter referenced in his speech should be somewhere in his library.



Here’s some possibilities…from the library…..Roswell is mentioned

clinton.presidentiallibraries.us...

Here’s one nugget from the link right above…….



You’ll have to navigate and dig deeper for yourself if your interested in the Ryan letter itself. Personally, I’m satisfied with Roswell = Balloon

Good Luck 🍀🍻

👽🛸☕️🍩

a reply to: mirageman

I like Carrion, in that Showtime doc he was very good. Seemed kind of bitter (I don’t blame him) with those spooky secret guys who dealt all around him. But even though I haven’t read his book yet, at first glance the psyop he purposes doesn’t seem viable way back then. Certainly, after the Robertson panel in 53 did the IC start forming psyops regarding ufology.

But his theory is possible and it would in 47 be a military psyop since the CIA wasn’t in existence until two months later.

That's all the reason this congressional committee that covers their new boy--UAPs, should demand total transparency about ALL THE deep dark history of the IC's dealing or double-dealing with the ufo phenomenon.

Let it ALL come out

a reply to: mirageman

I've investigated the backgrounds of many of the UFO
frauds and nearly every time, you run into the CIA
or previous intelligence services or occult groups,
or often both. (both groups seek to mind control
people for their own purposes).

But I'm not aware of any such links for Kenneth Arnold,
unless I missed them?

Do you think he was just a useful idiot, in the wrong
place at the right time?

He was ALL OVER THE PLACE as to what he saw and
what he thought it was.. I don't place any particular
significance to his report.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I think Arnold was legit and not a part of a psyop though he did get mixed up in the Maury Island fiasco or hoax as is generally believed, which does have still many unknowns, claims, and counterclaims.

Don’t know much about this, other than what the letter and caption says.

With no proof….I’ll say it’s a piece of Mogul if truly a “fragment” from the ranch site.

Source: New Mexico city famous for link to UFOs honours N.B. ufologist Stanton Friedman



It’s in his collection?? Perhaps he had it analyzed and it was found to be just earth metal. Otherwise why keep a potential smoking gun….unknown to the general public?? Hmmmm

I’ve never heard or read he had this….”fragment”

👽🛸🍺

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Once something is either proven or disproven,
it can no longer be weaponized to promote a
personal agenda.

This is why 'UFOs never land and stay landed'.
The game would be up.