Some of the Roswell Riddle examined

Comparison Table of Saucer Parts to Target Parts:




www.abovetopsecret.com...

One might expect to see rubber strips as a result of rubber balloons that have been shredded length wise, while being dragged across jagged rocks etc….across the ground, for some distance by winds of the open plains of the ranch…

👽🛸🍺

originally posted by: peaceinoutz

Comparison Table of Saucer Parts to Target Parts:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

AND, when that comparison chart was made was in July 1947 a mere month after the debris was found. That is part of the cover up. Can't none of you understand at that time (just before the cold war) the secrecy that was enforced was tremendous, in other words if you were commanded to lie you lied, if they commanded you to stand in a bucket of crap all you did it.
That's why you never, ever hear any military personnel talking about any happening till years after the incident.

a reply to: crayzeed

Ultimately it doesn’t matter what Marcel claims about this debris. Since the Mogul material is documented to match their descriptions of it.

And as I say above, what makes people think one of those saucers has all that kind of junk, wood, tape, cellophane on them? That’s NOT what we surmise is a part of these vehicles. That alone is enough for me to say that Marcel's material at Foster ranch WAS NOT from any alien craft.

As per your notion of USG lying and covering up, I TOTALLY agree with that but in this case, their lies are in an odd sense true, like the boy who cried wolf true. They were covering up the Mogul classified operation.

Now, I take every case on its own merit, since I am a believer that many of these so-called ufos are paranormal, or in a sense out of this world, just to me, not this Roswell incident.

And still, there may be some mystery behind Roswell.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

But how or why would folks think this kind of stuff would be a part of an alien craft crash, particularly when the whole intact craft is supposed to be somewhere else. What did it do, shed its engine, or carburetor, or maybe the alien air conditioner ejected from the craft, unto the Foster ranch, and then went a few miles and crashed intact? I don't think so.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
a reply to: Ophiuchus1

But how or why would folks think this kind of stuff would be a part of an alien craft crash, particularly when the whole intact craft is supposed to be somewhere else. What did it do, shed its engine, or carburetor, or maybe the alien air conditioner ejected from the craft, unto the Foster ranch, and then went a few miles and crashed intact? I don't think so.

I’m in agreement with Mogul, not the Craft…..

I’m in agreement with a Mogul payload train of considerable length to be able to leave a wide and long debris field.

Since Mogul was to test for nuclear testing in the Soviet Union and or dummies (as I understand it)…..I’m for sophisticated detection equipment and fixtures as part of the the balloon train. Items Marcel would not have known about…imo.

Is there any inventory list anywhere that shows the classified and non-classified payloads tethered along the long train of the particular Mogul balloon crash?

It is conceivable that the Mogul balloon had the makeup of a weather balloon ….but also had different other payload packages. IF so, then the debris could have included classified items, that belonged to other entities and were returned to them upon there discovery.

For example, there could have been a payload package that belonged to the labs of WP AFB….or a payload package belonging to a engineering department in Texas….or university etc.

I’m not buying a crashed craft…of unknown origin.

👽🛸🍺

a reply to: crayzeed

Sheridan Cavitt who was alongside Marcel on the Foster Ranch to collect the debris claimed a totally different story and felt that he witnessed the debris of a crashed balloon.




Maybe Marcel was 'co-erced' into telling a few fibs by an entrepreneurial ex-nuclear physicist? Someone who wanted an easier gig telling stories on the UFO conference circuit. It proved to be fertile ground in the late 70s until the end of the century for him.

Because back in 1947 no one associated 'flying saucers' or disks with aliens. The term was pretty new and only a couple of weeks old. The suspicions were that this was some form of secret weapon. Plus of course no one ever mentioned aliens. There are no contemporaneous reports (to my knowledge) of aliens being recovered from the general Roswell area in the 1940s. Even Marcel never mentioned seeing aliens. Ever!

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Were on the same page on this one.

My intent here is to consolidate Roswell's understanding. It's a lot of stuff but can be manageable with a firm grasp of the basic facts.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
Coming off many threads by many contributors, and other research from many sources particularly this one by Ectoplasm8, www.abovetopsecret.com...
I want to consolidate information about Roswell some might not have grasped fully yet.

What we have to consider in reviewing Roswell is that actually, there are two alleged crashed saucer
snip

This crashed saucer b.s. just doesn't stop! There is NO public evidence that any alien craft crashed anywhere on planet earth. Prove me wrong with the details of such. Hearsay is not evidence. You used the word "alleged", here's the definition of "alleged': claim or assert ... typically without proof that this is the case.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: crayzeed

Sheridan Cavitt who was alongside Marcel on the Foster Ranch to collect the debris claimed a totally different story and felt that he witnessed the debris of a crashed balloon.
snip

This confirmation is unnecessary as we have the horse's mouth account of what was recovered: William Ware “Mac” Brazel. His description is as good as it gets.

That the US could detect nuclear tests was super
red hot info for the time, and the USG would
far rather people believed in 'flying saucers'
or anything else, than the fact the US could
catch red-handed other nations gaining
nuclear capability, espeically since that nation
at the time, might easily have lied about their
new capability.

You NEVER want the enemy to know that you
know what they are up to.... it would have
been like the Allies letting Germany know
they had a working enigma machine.

It would have been a big HAIRY DEAL to
reveal mogul at the time.

Kev

Could Jesse Marcel have been the Bob Lazar of his day?…..Any parallels?

Hmmm

👽🛸🥃

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
Could Jesse Marcel have been the Bob Lazar of his day?…..Any parallels?

Hmmm

👽🛸🥃

I don't think so. You could say that Lazar is almost an enigma 'cause no one seems to know the truth about him except possibly those closest to him and they ain't talking. At least he's smart enough to promote himself successfully 'cause the world talks about him in acceptable terms and only the professional physicists as well as some members here question his claims.

Jesse Marcel (1907-1986) is predictable. He was 71 in 1978 when he met Stanton Friedman. I don't know what Marcel's state of mind was in 1978 and he may have believed the UFO story or maybe he didn't. I also don't know if Marcel was suffering from Alzheimer's/dementia which affects memory. But meeting big-mouth Friedman may have been an overwhelming experience and maybe he told Friedman it was not a UFO and Friedman may have said "Nonsense, the truth doesn't sell and you and I may enjoy a goldmine if you tell a little white lie". We don't know if at 71 Marcel was easily swayed by visions of financial riches and notoriety since he had been ignored by history after 1947 or later. Any number of such scenarios could have occurred, both are dead.

How the Roswell UFO Theory Got Started
www.abovetopsecret.com...
But there’s a big hitch in that oft-told tale. As TIME reported in an investigation on the 50th anniversary of the incident, the same day that the Daily Record ran the sensational story, it was determined that the litter was from a destroyed weather balloon. The paper printed a follow-up retraction the next day, and Brazel stated that he was embarrassed to have gotten so worked up over nothing.

That should have been that. But not everyone bought the official explanation, as TIME explained in 1997:

Enter Stanton Friedman, a former itinerant nuclear physicist now living in New Brunswick, Canada, who has long been, in
his words, “a clear-cut, unambiguous UFOlogist.” In 1978, while waiting in a Baton Rouge, La., television station for an
interview, Friedman was told that Jesse Marcel, long retired from the Air Force and living nearby, had once handled the
wreckage of a UFO. After quizzing Marcel, who still believed the debris he retrieved was extraterrestrial, Friedman
reviewed the old stories about Roswell, painstakingly sought out and interviewed other witnesses, and came to a
dramatic conclusion: there had been a cover-up of “cosmic Watergate” proportions. His research and conclusions became
the basis of the 1980 book The Roswell Incident, co-written by Charles Berlitz (author of The Bermuda Triangle) and UFO
investigator William Moore. Its publication put Roswell back on the map.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
Could Jesse Marcel have been the Bob Lazar of his day?…..Any parallels?

Hmmm

👽🛸🥃

Lazar didn't wait 30 years. Whether he saw an alien body is a confusing mess dependent on which version of his story he is telling at the time.

Marcel DID wait 30 years until an ET craft was first mentioned, and, as MM said earlier, he never said he'd seen alien bodies.

In Feb 1978, when Friedman brought the story back from the dead (even Project Blue Book and its earlier iterations were never interested in Roswell), Spielberg's 'Close Encounters' (1977) was already a gigantic worldwide hit, leading even schools in the UK to support tabloid hacks who screamed that 1978 was 'The Year Of The UFO!', before the resuscitated Roswell grabbed any attention.

Similarly, but not for alien reasons, Ken Arnold's sighting led to an EXPLOSION of copycat reports in 1947. Indeed, researcher Ted Bloecher's 'Report On The UFO Wave Of 1947' (1967) collected 853 such cases, a common factor being that ET was not even in the public's mind, with so many reports rather charmingly describing their 'flying disks/saucers' as having propellers!

Strieber's huge success with 'Communion' in the late-80s arguably tickled Lazar's imagination - or rather his best mate John Lear's (RIP), but I'm just guessing about that angle.

As I've said before many times, if anybody, anywhere can present just ONE piece of contemporary evidence from 1947 that even vaguely mentions "ET" in relation to Roswell (or any other alleged crash in 1947), I'll be all ears & eyes.

And so much for Marcel's pesky 1947 diary. When nothing relevant was found inside it, the next step for Roswell "ET" supporters was to allege that...

... the entries must have been written in a secret code...




But that's ufology for you.

a reply to: idusmartias

It’s almost as if Friedman was to Marcel…..as Knapp was to Lazar……in regards to catalyst handlers. Perhaps

👽🛸🍺

a reply to: peaceinoutz

this was the guy who commanded the 509th air base in July 1947. this guy ordered the release on the crashed disc in us army air force hands. who could not tell the difference between a radar reflector and a space ship. so they made him a 5 star general?


William Hugh Blanchard (February 6, 1916 – May 31, 1966) was a United States Air Force officer who attained the rank of four-star general and served as Vice Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force from 1965 to 1966.
Early life and education
A native of Boston, Massachusetts, Blanchard received his high school education in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and graduated from Phillips Exeter Academy before entering the United States Military Academy in 1934. He graduated and received his commission in 1938.
After completing pilot training at Randolph and Kelly Fields, Texas, in 1939, he held assignments as a flight instructor and as chief of advanced pilot training in the Flying Training Command, before his selection in 1943 for duty with the initial B-29 bomber wing then being formed in Salina, Kansas.

In 1944, Blanchard, as deputy commander of the 58th Bomb Wing, flew the first B-29 into China to begin his participation in strategic bombing operations against the Japanese mainland. Later, assigned as commander of the 40th Bomb Group (B-29) and subsequently as operations officer of the 21st Bomber Command in the Marianas, he planned and flew low-level fire raids against major Japanese targets.

In the climaxing phase of World War II, then-colonel Blanchard was directed to prepare and supervise the detailed operations order for the delivery of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima. He was the backup pilot for the Hiroshima A-bomb drop, which was ultimately delivered by Colonel Paul W. Tibbets, Commanding Officer of the 509th Atomic Bombardment Group or Wing.

After the war, on January 20, 1946, Blanchard became Commanding Officer of the 509th, succeeding Tibbetts. By this time, post-war demobilization had reduced the 509th to a skeleton crew. But Blanchard and the 509th were immediately ordered to commence operations for the "Operation Crossroads" atomic tests at Bikini atoll. With highest priorities, crews were assembled and in March the 509th was transferred to Kwajalein, Marshall Islands, for the Bikini atomic bomb tests, that ultimately took place that July.


Blanchard in China describing a plan of attack. September 1944
At the conclusion of the Crossroads tests, on August 23, 1946, then-colonel Blanchard assumed the duties of commanding officer of Roswell Army Air Field, New Mexico (renamed Walker Air Force Base in 1948), which became the permanent home of the 509th, though now again reduced to skeleton operations after the Crossroad tests. However, in September 1946, they received orders to remain at Roswell and train and equip a very heavy bomber air force with nuclear strike capability, which became fully operational in February 1947.

On July 8, 1947, then-colonel Blanchard issued an official Army Air Force press release stating that the base intelligence office had recovered a so-called "flying disc" or "flying saucer" from a nearby ranch, it had been found "sometime last week," and they were flying it to "higher headquarters". The press release and the media feeding frenzy that followed it triggered the so-called Roswell UFO incident. Brigadier General Roger Ramey, head of the Eighth Army Air Force in Fort Worth, Texas, quickly pronounced it a misidentified weather balloon. Ironically, Blanchard's press release and the Roswell incident it triggered are perhaps what Blanchard became best known for by the public at large decades later when the event was reopened and investigated, with many books written. (see also Walter Haut, Blanchard's public information officer, who put out the press release)

A year later, in 1948, Blanchard was assigned to Strategic Air Command's Eighth Air Force Headquarters in Fort Worth as director of operations. Blanchard helped direct the atomic training of crews for B-36s, the United States' first intercontinental bombers. After commanding B-50 and B-36 bomber units of SAC, he was assigned as deputy director of operations for that command in 1953.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

As I've said before many times, if anybody, anywhere can present just ONE piece of contemporary evidence from 1947 that even vaguely mentions "ET" in relation to Roswell (or any other alleged crash in 1947), I'll be all ears & eyes.

It's like looking at a burrito and seeing a burrito. Then you
look at it again, 30 years later, after the burrito has nearly
entirely rotted away, and this time you see the virgin mary.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear


👽🛸🍺😆😆

One can say the gang of six of ufology started all of this: Stanton Friedman, Bill Moore, Don Berliner, Kevin Randle, Don Schmitt, and Tom Carey brought this back to life, rode on by the confessed disinformation agent Bill Moore who started researching with Friedman but left him to write the first book for the guy who wrote the Bermuda triangle best seller, Charles Berlitz.

It started in 1977 and the early ’80s which coincidently was the same time that AFOSI Airforce counter-intel started their disinformation schemes on ufology through Bill Moore and Paul Bennewitz. Bill Moore is the key, also attached to the MJ12 hysteria were Bill Moore and Freidman.

All this is interesting in that this is or may have been part of a USG IC disinformation scheme, which included bringing Roswell back from the dead along with the MJ12 and Bennewitz MAJOR disinformation psyop.

Then the question would be, why in this period from 1977 to the early 90s so important for the USG IC to bring all this up? Is this just a coincidence or did the IC have a particular reason for stirring up the noise in this period?

Similar to today and TTSA and the new wave UAP movement.

a reply to: MAC269

They say, Blanchard, was a brash type guy and close to the big Air force honcho Curtis LeMay, who BTW protected him from too much flack for his crashed saucer blunder that started all this stuff in the first place. Supposedly, even one of the reporters told those knuckleheads to chill on releasing this crazy story. The public information official Lt. Haut still went headlong in releasing the story, to their everlasting regret I’m sure.