Proof of Russia forcing civilians to lie

Marianna Podgurskaya is probably the most famous survivor of Putin's March 9th strike on the maternity hospital in Mariupol. There's been some conspiracy theories around this, and a lot of speculation. Here she is being mocked by the Russian embassy in UK after the attack:



Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov admitted to the attack, speaking to UN Security Council the day after, while Russia's ambassador to the Netherlands for example claimed that the whole thing was fake. So they've been trying out different lies to see what sticks.

Now it seems that Podgurskaya has been abducted and taken from Mariupol to separatist-controlled Donetsk where they are using her as a tool for propaganda: twitter.com...

The story they are putting in her mouth is still full of contradictions. In the video she says that the hospital was occupied by Ukrainian troops, but she denies the strike that Lavrov already admitted to. She claims that Ukrainians probably attacked their own hospital occupied by their own troops, but also says that it's OK because the attack was small and the pictures were faked propaganda. So, as usual, they aren't even trying to put forward a consistent lie, or if they're trying they're failing.

Keep in mind that Podgurskaya is in a vulnerable position, they've probably confiscated her passport and so on. So she has to lie in order to ensure her own and her child's safety. Personally I'm pretty jaded to pics of dead people, war crimes like that. But to first attack civilians and then force them to lie about it is deeply evil.

The entire Russian government seems to have become deranged.

I have reluctantly become accustomed to corruption and incompetence in western governments, but this behavior is psychopathic.

Cheers

originally posted by: Cutepants

Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov admitted to the attack, speaking to UN Security Council the day after

May I see a link so I can understand what Lavrov's speech you are talking about?

a reply to: Cutepants

WHEW! Good thing western government (like the USA) never propagandize, never lie to their people or force people to lie.

Must be terrible living under such a regime.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
The entire Russian government seems to have become deranged.

I have reluctantly become accustomed to corruption and incompetence in western governments, but this behavior is psychopathic.

Cheers

THIS behavior is "psychopathic?"
If you live in a major western country, you should be well inured to "psychopathic" behavior from politicians. Washington DC is inhabited by probably the highest psychopath-per-capita ratio in the planet.

Not justifying anything anybody did in terms of deceptive propaganda, but you're talking like this is some new level of deception. I have just one reply to that bizarre point of view:

9/11

*mic drop*

All governments lie

a reply to: Cutepants

How is this proof of anything? (Well, I guess it's "proof" that she said these things) Why should I believe/not believe this woman? Even within the Twitter thread you linked, the story changes at least once (She is in Moscow... no, she's not in Moscow...). If the author of the Twitter thread can one part wrong, what else could he be getting wrong?

I am asking sincerely. I keep seeing things put forth as "proof" of one thing or another, from one person or another, but there never seems to be any real proof of anything. What am I missing?

a reply to: Boadicea

Nothing...you are missing nothing. The videos of what people in Mariupol is very inconvenient for the western side of the propaganda and this poster worships the western propaganda...so they will put forward anything they can to try and protect the imagine and narrative that propaganda seeks to create. Its pretty obvious....

With truth being the first casualty of war, I find it interesting how people are so adamantly for or against each side simply going by what the MSM is pushing.

Last night the feel-good Ukraine story was about a couple of solders who fell in love on the battle field. The guy is being sent to the front lines, while the gal will remain behind. My gut instincts expect to be the follow-up story - with buckets of tears- about how her one true love was killed in battle.

The story lines from MSM are as easy to follow as a low-budget movie.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Cutepants

How is this proof of anything? (Well, I guess it's "proof" that she said these things) Why should I believe/not believe this woman? Even within the Twitter thread you linked, the story changes at least once (She is in Moscow... no, she's not in Moscow...). If the author of the Twitter thread can one part wrong, what else could he be getting wrong?

I am asking sincerely. I keep seeing things put forth as "proof" of one thing or another, from one person or another, but there never seems to be any real proof of anything. What am I missing?

I noticed this a while back.

They used her in the first story about Russia allegedly bombing a hospital. The picture at the time showed her walking down stairs. Russia said that it had previously been evacuated and was actually housing soldiers. I believe it may be where some morons posted selfies from resulting in a missle strike.

The next story that features her showed her on a stretcher and claimed she died of multiple injuries including a fractured pelvis, which came out a week or two later.

I'm not an expert, but my wife is an MD and said the likelihood of walking down stairs with a broken pelvis is minimal. This would be thread worthy under most circumstances, but given the level of deception happening I didn't bother.

I find this definitive evidence of willful fabrication.

originally posted by: Lora73
All governments lie

Yes, they do, and some are really good at it now.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
Seriously?
So Western Governments are constantly 'warning' us of imminent Russian nuclear strikes, imminent bio-weapons etc.... neither of which have happened, or will.
Psychopathic meaning: suffering from or constituting a chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour. I would suggest both sides are psychopaths.
"Let him without sin cast the first stone"

a reply to: angelchemuel

Seriously, Jane.

Yes, the behavior of groups, governments or otherwise, is no prize, even in the "best" of times.

But it is not all the same.

I stand by my choice of words: deranged and psychopathic.

Cheers

a reply to: turretless

I'll have to try to find footage of that meeting. But here Lavrov is quoted by Russian news agency TASS: tass.com...

On March 7, three days ago, our delegation presented evidence at a session of the UN Security Council that the maternity hospital in question had long been seized by the Azov battalion and other radicals. All expectant mothers, all nurses and other personnel had been driven out. It was a base of the ultra-radical battalion Azov.

a reply to: Boadicea

Why does it matter where exactly she is? I only linked the twitter thread to show you the video, I don't know how to link to it separately. And like I said, I'm not certain of her location. I can look into that, but my point is that Russia's story keeps changing. And Podgurskaya herself hasn't given interviews before from what I can see. Now she's suddenly spouting Russian propaganda, after they accused her of being a liar before? Why would she want to do that?

So you shouldn't believe her because her story is contradictory, like I said. But even basic facts like her claim that the hospital was hit by a single artillery shell and not an airstrike, it doesn't make sense. Look at the crater.

a reply to: Ksihkehe

I can't find any reports of her hip having been broken. What are you basing this on? I think you must be confusing her with one of the other pregnant women.

a reply to: incoserv

I don't see the point in fighting over who is the most oppressed. Does it make it better for Russians if some other regime is bad?

a reply to: angelchemuel

"Let him without sin cast the first stone"

Do you mean governments? Is it OK for me to cast the first stone at a government? Because I haven't lied about bio-weapons or started wars or anything.

a reply to: Ksihkehe
a reply to: RickyD

Thank you -- I've been wondering if I'm just being too cynical, with so many seeing "proof" that everything Russia is bad bad bad, and everything Ukraine is good good good. I was hoping the OP would tell me what it is that they are seeing that I'm not... and not tell me I'm just a Putin lover or Russian propagandist!

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: turretless

I'll have to try to find footage of that meeting. But here Lavrov is quoted by Russian news agency TASS: tass.com...


"On March 7, three days ago, our delegation presented evidence at a session of the UN Security Council that the maternity hospital in question had long been seized by the Azov battalion and other radicals. All expectant mothers, all nurses and other personnel had been driven out. It was a base of the ultra-radical battalion Azov."

So who admitted to the attack?

Lavrov or the Russian delegation?

a reply to: Cutepants

Why does it matter where exactly she is?

It doesn't. At least not to me. But, as I stated, it matters that it changed, and if the Twitter author could get that wrong, then what else could be wrong?

...my point is that Russia's story keeps changing. And Podgurskaya herself hasn't given interviews before from what I can see. Now she's suddenly spouting Russian propaganda, after they accused her of being a liar before? Why would she want to do that?

If she herself has not given any interviews before, then the previous stories weren't necessarily her story. I agree its contradictory and confusing in the big picture, I'm just not seeing any proof of anything here. Is it not possible that the "official" narrative was wrong/propaganda, and she is now telling the truth as she knows it?

So you shouldn't believe her because her story is contradictory, like I said. But even basic facts like her claim that the hospital was hit by a single artillery shell and not an airstrike, it doesn't make sense. Look at the crater.

I don't know how she would know that anyway. I'm sure some people could tell. My late brother the explosion/demolition expert would have known. But I would have no idea if she were telling the truth or not.

I can think of many possible scenarios/explanations with the facts at hand, and one is that Russia is forcing her to lie (or paying her a pretty ruble to lie). I'm just not seeing proof of anything.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: Ksihkehe

I can't find any reports of her hip having been broken. What are you basing this on? I think you must be confusing her with one of the other pregnant women.

No, it was definitely her. I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled the second story.