The Minutemen: an idea long overdue

Originally posted by marg6043
Oh Jsobecky is just an observation, tell me why is not blacks or Latinos in their bunch? or asians and other...... after all Americans are of different races can you tell me that.

They proclaim to be acting in behave of Americans and that they are doing what Americans want.

So will you explain that to me?

marg, you would be the last person that I would call a racist; sorry if it sounded that way.

I haven't seen every minuteman, so I can't answer your question. I'd bet they are represented, though.

Ok, time to bring the facts obviously some are so concern about the borders and the evil Mexican immigrants that not body has done the home work about whom the minutemen are.

Reality check, this group has been around for a while, one of their leaders in the California base militia group was in the 90s accused of plotting to kill immigrants he was arrested with intention to kill, they wanted to used snipers to control illegal immigrants.

``This could have gotten very ugly. I think these people were poised for a massacre, and that the Los Angeles Police Department kept an international incident from happening,'' said Michael P. Dowd, San Bernardino County deputy district attorney.
1. Details of the alleged plot came at Ung's preliminary hearing Wednesday. He has been charged with 13 felony counts, including possession of illegal firearms, ammunition and explosive devices.
Superior Court Judge Gerard S. Brown ruled there was sufficient evidence to bring Ung to trial. He was scheduled to be formally arraigned March 18. If convicted on all counts, Ung faces a maximum of 20 years and four months in prison, prosecutors said.

The group was training on the San Gabriel Mountains, and their training included, snipers, hostage taking, tear gas training, combat training.

In a series of raids last year, authorities seized homemade bombs, more than 100 weapons, and taped conversations and handwritten notes about the planned attack.

This was back then and now they are back, can somebody tell me if they will be any different from back in the 90s? source

www.rawbw.com...

by the way you bet they are closed monitored.

The minuteman project is not neccessarly trying to stop the illegals their purpose it to bring to light the problems created from illegal immigration. Here in Arizona a bill was recently passed that denies illegals public welfare, in my opinion they shouldn't of had this option to begin with. The mexican gov't wanted to sue Arizona over this law......Why?????? (they tried claiming humanitarian reasons)Our Social programs is Mexico's 2nd largest cash cow behind OIL!!! The illegals are being told by the mexican gov't how to get public benefits and send the money to Mexico, this is equaling BILLIONS of Dollars annually, this is all money that is coming out of every americans pocket. The Illegals that come here are forcing the emergency rooms to become overloaded and broke. The illegals do not have insurance, so they go to the emergency room where they can't be turned away, than they never have to pay the bill like the rest of us and once again this burden is pushed back onto the average american tax payer.

The people that employ the illegals are just as guilty of causing these problems however.

Originally posted by redpig01
The minuteman project is not necessarily trying to stop the illegals their purpose it to bring to light the problems created from illegal immigration.

The minuteman project was more sinister that you can imagine but they were caught, people in the Arizona border are protesting for them to stay away from their towns, why?

Because they know who they are and what their agendas used to be and what they hide under now.

Illegal immigration hurts everyone even the illegals themselves. I talked to someone several weeks ago that was fired from a night janitor job after 20 years of service. He was replaced by an illegal. So that blows the myth that they only take jobs that Americans won’t do. I had my roof replaced and I could not find a company that did not use illegals. I tried to talk with the crew while they were working on the roof but they did not speak English. A woman was raped by 5 illegals last week in my hometown.

Americans spend billions of dollars on health care and other benefits for illegals. Most illegals do not pay taxes so therefore they do not help with the tax burdens associated with those services used by illegals. Some illegals do pay taxes but they generally use a stolen social security number which causes problems for the person that had their social security number stolen from them when it comes tax time and the government wants to know about all of that extra income not claimed on their tax return.

As far as securing the border we are supposedly at war with terrorism and against drugs. I have seen on TV at least 2 drug busts within the last couple of weeks that were worth over a million dollars each. With that kind of money trouble always follows. This costs Americans in the fact that more money and resources are required to control the illegal drug trade.

I believe that the minutemen have already accomplished what they set out to do. They have achieved national media attention to the issue. 500 more border control agents have been added as well.

For those of you that want to bash the minutemen for what they are doing try to put yourself in the shoes of the folks that live along the border. How would you like your property rights to be constantly violated and have your protests to the government fall on deaf ears? This is America and we need to stand together in order to protect the rights of all Americans in order for all of us to keep our high standards of living.

BTW marg, how do you know that the minutement are all trigger happy? Just wondering how you know. Is it because they are white? I mean whites trying to protect America must be racist and sureley would want to kill Mexicans. So can you please show me your proof that they are all trigger happy and not just interesting in protecting there jobs, property etc..

Mexico accused of abusing its illegals

By Jerry Seper THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The State Department says that the Mexican government, angry that a thousand American volunteers will begin an Arizona border vigil next month, consistently violates the rights of illegal immigrants crossing its southern border into Mexico.

Many of the illegals in Mexico, who emigrate from Central and South America, complain of "double dangers" of extortion by Mexican authorities and robbery and killings by organized gangs.

The State Department's Human Rights Practices report, released only last month, cites abuses at all levels of the Mexican government, and charges that Mexican police and immigration officials not only violate the rights of illegal immigrants, but traffic in illegal aliens.

Although Mexico demands that its citizens' rights be protected when they illegally enter the United States, immigrants who cross illegally into Mexico "are often ripped off six ways until sundown," says George Grayson, a professor at the College of William & Mary and a fellow at the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies (CIS).

Mr. Grayson, who wrote a report for the center on Mexico's abuses of aliens, says "very little" is being done by Mexico to protect the welfare of the Central Americans and the others who cross into Mexico.

Mexican President Vicente Fox said last week that his government will sue in U.S. or international courts if the volunteers -- part of the Minuteman Project, which is designed to protest the Bush administration's lax immigration policies -- break the law.

"We totally reject the idea of these migrant-hunting groups," Mr. Fox said prior to yesterday's Baylor University summit in Waco, Texas, with President Bush and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin, at which the countries agreed to improve security and unify business practices.

"We will use the law, international law and even U.S. law to make sure that these types of groups ... will not have any opportunity to progress," Mr. Fox said last week.

In response, Sen. Jon Kyl, Arizona Republican, urged Mr. Fox to respect America's right to defend its borders and "demonstrate perhaps a little less disdain for the rule of law north of the border."

Mr. Kyl said Mr. Fox's "pre-emptive threats" to file lawsuits on behalf of those crossing the border unlawfully "is hardly helpful, since it presumes that illegal aliens have more of a right to break American law than American citizens have to peacefully assist authorities in enforcing it."

Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, says Mexico had "raised the bar on chutzpah" by criticizing efforts by the Minuteman volunteers to protest immigration enforcement by the U.S. government.

"Since when are 'Neighborhood Watch' citizens 'vigilantes'?" Mr. Tancredo asked. "President Fox thinks we should tear down the fence that keeps illegal aliens out? Then why doesn't he put up a welcome sign on his southern border with Guatemala instead of using his military to keep poor Guatemalans out? Such hypocrisy about borders defies historic parallel."

In a press conference yesterday in Waco, President Bush described the Arizona volunteers as "vigilantes."

Alfonso Nieto, spokesman for the Mexican Embassy in Washington, said the presence of "vigilantes" on the border "will only exacerbate a climate of unease and provide sources of confrontation that will not contribute to solving the flow of economic migrants demanded by the U.S. government."

Mr. Nieto would not comment on suspected immigrant abuses in his own country, but Mexican government officials earlier said Mr. Fox created a national program on human rights to address problems. Article

Notice Bush calling the minutemen vigilanties and then Alfonso Nieto saying that the US Government has asked for illegals.

Fox is a hyporcit. He does not allow illegal immigration into his country but he says he will sue Americans for protecting there own rights. Who the heck does he think he is?

Originally posted by marg6043
Oracle I actually agree with you that they maybe trying to call attention and make a statement to the government.

But............after watching the TV and noticing that they were mostly white middle age to older man, I kind of see this militia as a supremacy group.

You Know what they say marg do not judge a book by its cover. I hope you realize that is in effect what you are saying what you did, or didnt you realize that?

Now, if the group were more diversify with Latinos and black I will agree that they were Americans protecting the borders, but I see as one group of American taking over.

tsk tsk, I had so hoped you would have used the links on the Minuteman site. You might want to go back and read more of what it says to educate yourself on the matter as you should have the first time. There are blacks and latinos in the Minuteman project in fact the be more specific there are even some Mexican born individuals. Just in case they may taken down the old press releases which I understand was the plan, you might want to do a search of the many news sources covering the story, they will verify what I have stated is true.

Shot I am posting facts so you want to believe their agenda that is find but better look into who the co-founders are and how they have been link to neo-nazis.

Better open your eyes, and smell the realities of their leaders.

the south east Arizona republican club have an article about them and how it exposed them.



[edit on 2-4-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
Ok, time to bring the facts obviously some are so concern about the borders and the evil Mexican immigrants that not body has done the home work about whom the minutemen are.

Reality check, this group has been around for a while, one of their leaders in the California base militia group was in the 90s accused of plotting to kill immigrants he was arrested with intention to kill, they wanted to used snipers to control illegal immigrants.

A Claremont-based militia group planned to shoot immigrants attempting to enter California illegally, practicing sniper and combat attacks in the San Gabriel Mountains, according prosecutors.

At a preliminary hearing Wednesday, Los Angeles Police Department Sgt. Glynn Martin, an expert on paramilitary groups, said Alvin Ung, 34, and other members of an organization called the Southern California Minuteman Association intended to ``use snipers to control illegal immigrants.''

Nice try marg but Ung was not a part of the AZ Minuteman project they are two different organizations the one you mentioned is in Sourthern CA, the current group is based in Tumbstone AZ.

Reality check Marg as you said not me; reality check

It would appear you failed your homework assignment tsk tsk. Care to try again? Only this time make sure the groups are the same OK?










[edit on 4/2/2005 by shots]

Originally posted by marg6043
Shot I am posting facts so you want to believe their agenda that is find but better look into who the co-founders are and how they have been link to neo-nazis.

Better open your eyes, and smell the realities of their leaders.

the south east Arizona republican club have an article about them and how it exposed them.

[edit on 2-4-2005 by marg6043]

Link Please to the information you claim exists. Thank you.

No good will come of this, it's just going to attract a lot of people who want to start a fight.

Still, if Bush continues to ignore the problem, there are going to be people who feel they should take things into their own hands. I'm sure a lot of these anti-immigration folks find it hard to understand why Bush ignores them, but the businesses that rely on cheap, uninsured, untaxed, illegal labor are Bush's real constituency and he knows it.

[edit on 2-4-2005 by xmotex]

Phoenix, AZ, September 10, 2004…The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) confirmed that a self-admitted neo-Nazi is leading a recruiting effort for armed volunteers to join a new "Arizona Guard" militia to patrol the Arizona/Mexico border from a compound in Douglas, AZ

www.adl.org...

looks to me that they go around changing names

ADL Says Armed Anti-Immigration Groups in Arizona Share Ties to White Supremacists

They are the civil homeland defense (minuteman), alone with Ranch Rescue and American border patrol has been known to have ties with white supremacy groups.

www.adl.org...

This one of the main co-organizers of the now minute man, by the way they have been around for a while and they are not from Arizona but California where the original minute man started but ended in jail.

Chris Simcox,

Chris Simcox, head of another border vigilante group, Civil Homeland Defense, was convicted in April 2004 for carrying a concealed weapon on federal land while engaged in a vigilante patrol and giving false information to a park ranger about it.

Is group since 2004 has been link to white supremacist groups

www.civilrights.org...

Chris Simcox's principal malady is that he is an incurable racist. Los Angeles, with its increasing racial and ethnic diversity, is very hard on people like Simcox. Many racists here rapidly fall apart. Some commit suicide, some go on shootings rampages and some like Chris Simcox, and Glenn Spencer, another failed anti-Mexican bigot from the Los Angeles area, pack up and go to the Arizona desert where they can take out their racist rage against defenseless Mexican migrant workers.

www.aztlan.net...

He was on TV talking about his job as a minute man.

www.douglasdispatch.com...

White supremacy flyers been distributed in Arizona before the minuteman project to start.
Occurs they denied been racist.

Casey Nethercott said the Minuteman Project led by Jim Gilchrist has been infiltrated by skinhead, neo-Nazi, white supremacists and if any of them trespass on Arizona Guard property he and his soldiers will react and take them into custody.

www.libertypost.org...

Minutemen have some very controversial beginnings and relatioships.

I have said before I applaud what the minutemen are doing, and If I had the chance I would be right down there with them doing what this country should do instead of ignoring the problem. In fact since I cannot be down there with them, I'm going start pasting flyers all over my town telling people of their action and how they can help/or join.

*Applauds for the Minutemen*

Originally posted by marg6043

Phoenix, AZ, September 10, 2004…The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) confirmed that a self-admitted neo-Nazi is leading a recruiting effort for armed volunteers to join a new "Arizona Guard" militia to patrol the Arizona/Mexico border from a compound in Douglas, AZ

www.adl.org...

looks to me that they go around changing names

Minutemen have some very controversial beginnings and relatioships.

Come on Marg stop being so paranoid. You obviously believe only what you want and that is fine, but also wrong.

What do you expect the opposition to say? Oh they are great people! No of course not they are only going to say what they want to promote their agenda nothing more.

Now where is the link to the AZ republican party comment you stated you had or I should say read?

While you are at it, check out this site formed by a congressman I might add.

www.teamamericapac.org...

Are you going to insist he is a white supremist?





[edit on 4/2/2005 by shots]

Shots I did a research on them from the 90s when the first group originated, then they change their name to home defense, then minute man.

They are not the only ones in the border patrol doing this, is 3 more groups of militia, looks to me like a power struggle.

The minuteman has been on and off on the border since 2002.

You make your own decisions but be aware that even the local police are ready to take them.

The problem of illegal immigration is not a new one but one that has come to the fore in the aftermath of September 11. But besides becoming a threat to national security, the situation creates a drain on the American economy.

According to estimates by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), there are at least eight and a half million illegal aliens in America with half a million more arriving every year.

For advocates of immigrant rights, the excuse is always the same. These people are providing a service by taking jobs that no Americans want. This is a myth. In this columnist's personal experience illegal aliens are taking away relatively high paying construction jobs for less money and driving wages down for U.S. workers. Big Business is the primary beneficiary from this arrangement. By hiring illegal workers, they circumvent the process of supply and demand, paying less for services and pocketing the difference.

Many of these illegals are paid in cash and so pay no income tax. And much of the money they earn is immediately spirited out of the country. Any economist will attest that money earned in a community changes hands several times within the community thus stimulating the local economy. Additionally, local and state taxes are paid each time that money is exchanged. This is called a ‘ripple effect' and helps local economies grow.

Alien workers, whether here legally or not, send the bulk of their earnings out of country.

Observe the Western Union counter of the local Winn-Dixie on any given Friday afternoon and you will find Hispanic gentlemen lined up to funnel money back home to Mexico and other points south. This money is gone and is not coming back to the U.S. Bye-bye ripple effect.

Article

How can anyone be for letting illegals into this country.

Originally posted by marg6043
Shots I did a research on them from the 90s when the first group originated, then they change their name to home defense, then minute man.

They are not the only ones in the border patrol doing this, is 3 more groups of militia, looks to me like a power struggle.

The minuteman has been on and off on the border since 2002.

You make your own decisions but be aware that even the local police are ready to take them.

Yes I agree there may be more then one group, however they are not related to the current Minuteman project you just think they are.

I am still waiting for the link to the AZ replican party though. I am open minded and would like to read what they had to say.

Waiting for marge to furnish info she claimed she read

[edit on 4/2/2005 by shots]

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001


How can anyone be for letting illegals into this country.

You know, perhaps because the Bush administration has been very friendly to let migrants come in into the country?.

Remeber he openly has been for migrants. Now they have been coming across the border for years but I agree that its getting out of hand.

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001


How can anyone be for letting illegals into this country.

You know, perhaps because the Bush administration has been very friendly to let migrants come in into the country?.

Remeber he openly has been for migrants. Now they have been coming across the border for years but I agree that its getting out of hand.

WOW you agree it is out of hand yet you condemn the Minuteman. Why is that, they have done nothing violent yet have they? Nope and I doubt they will.

Originally posted by shots
Waiting for marge to furnish info she claimed she read

[edit on 4/2/2005 by shots]

No problem it was part of want of the links provided but you needed to click on the source of the information.

Here is the direct link of the site.

www.searclub.com...

By now you should know that I will provide my sources