Eliminating Elections Key To True Representational Democracy

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: ERISunveiled

Where did I say you're dumb?

Misinformed? Yes. Politically naïve? That, too.

Not the same thing, really.

As for examples? Read through history for examples that more than vaguely resemble what you've put forward.

I think you'll discover that those regimes were all totalitarian, and more than one still is.

if made a claim you have to back it up with information that exists outside of your opinions. if you can't do that then you are wasting your time bc I *have no reason to believe you just bc you say it

accidental post

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ERISunveiled

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I just get a kick out of all these "new ideas" and none of them contain any aspect of individual rights, personal freedoms or liberties.

That's cause you're a conservative and those are conservative policies and those are bad. Didn't you read? Progressive policies are the good ones, duh!

thanks for bringing this back. still waiting for this person to explain what they mean by "individual rights, personal freedoms or liberties" and how this idea takes those away from ppl.

Also. my post doesn't dictate any policies conservative or progressive--those are for the representatives to figure out when in office. this plan is merely articulating a different way to select who our representatives are.

If you are unaware of the definition of freedom or the importance of the Constitution then you are obviously a person that has never sworn an oath to the Constitution nor have you ever fought for the rights enumerated.



Grow up.

the basic rule of communication is that for communication to occur all the involved parties have to agree to the definition of terms. since people here are saying this idea (sortition) is fascism when fascism is rule by dictator and sortition is just an alternate means of selecting our representatives, and this version of sortition specifically has term limits, calling it fascism is simply wrong. So yeah, I want to know what ppl mean when they say "freedom" bc it's a pretty consistent response and I'm trying to learn how to communicate this idea.

However. With all that said--i should have figured out that in the context of this conversation "Freedom" means choosing who to vote for. kinda obvious, my bad. But in fairness to myself, I vastly overestimated what ppl consider freedom and did not once consider that someone would seriously believe that only being able to pick one of two people out of millions for an important government role like President was real "FREEDOM." I mean, in what other situation would having such a choice be considered freedom? If you went to the store and there were only two kinds drinks for sale no one would say that is real freedom of choice. That would only count as freedom FROM choice, and i don't think that's the kind of freedom all you are going on about in the replies. But maybe it is. idk. so maybe get back to me on what Freedom means to you.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

Have you even read the US Constitution?

a reply to: ERISunveiled

A bit too rigid there, will only create more apathy l, dissent & rebelling.

What we need is POLITICIAN motivation to be better, not just only voter motivation.

Therefore, go straight for the Fat Cat Jugular -- no pay up front, or during the term,, pay is lump sum at the end of every term.

Shore up investment & transparency rules as well as figure out a reasonable time period to bar doing Regular Joe post-public service business with anyone you did business with as a public servant, so that things such as Scratch My Back & I Scratch Yours bribes are much harder to achieve.

Also should consider if that business/investment ban post-public service should automatically default to resetting said time frame clock if pulling multiple terms in a row or not.


Politics will only clean up if we get the soap out & wash away the easy money-grubbing loopholes. And we don't even have to punish the citizens for it, just change our attitude over what should & shouldn't be easy to line a pocket with & why.

originally posted by: Nyiah
a reply to: ERISunveiled

A bit too rigid there, will only create more apathy l, dissent & rebelling.

What we need is POLITICIAN motivation to be better, not just only voter motivation.

unfortunately the motivation, the incentive, is to lie cheat & steal bc that's what is rewarded by voters. imagine this scenario (trigger warning--my leftist politics will be on full display)

So imagine someone destroyed labor rights at the behest of major corporations and now you can’t live off your minimum wage job. So you start stealing to survive, but are eventually caught and thrown in jail. But then! the person who sold you out to the corporations gets reelected bc you voted for them bc they said immigrants were taking all the good jobs AND YOU BELIEVED IT! Well… no need to imagine!

originally posted by: Nyiah

Therefore, go straight for the Fat Cat Jugular -- no pay up front, or during the term,, pay is lump sum at the end of every term.

so the problem I see here is that that discourages working-class folk from getting involved in politics who would depend on those paychecks to support them while in office. This would actually work against your other point of needing to motivate honest ppl to get into politics.

originally posted by: Nyiah


Shore up investment & transparency rules as well as figure out a reasonable time period to bar doing Regular Joe post-public service business with anyone you did business with as a public servant, so that things such as Scratch My Back & I Scratch Yours bribes are much harder to achieve.

Also should consider if that business/investment ban post-public service should automatically default to resetting said time frame clock if pulling multiple terms in a row or not.

Politics will only clean up if we get the soap out & wash away the easy money-grubbing loopholes. And we don't even have to punish the citizens for it, just change our attitude over what should & shouldn't be easy to line a pocket with & why.

this all seems fine and perfectly compatible with a sortition system. well done

a reply to: ERISunveiled

I don't want you to believe something "just because I say so." That would be something along the lines of what you're espousing...

Do your own research, it's the internet--it's there somewhere. Or try books, they're still a thing, too. Libraries are full of 'em, free for you to use.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: ERISunveiled

Have you even read the US Constitution?

nope. can't read the tiny cursive. but here's a question for you. Have you even read my post? The thing we're actually talking about? About how we should alter how we select our representatives. bc here's a plot twist--i HAVE read the constitution and it leaves the rules for voting up to the states. so. if a state decides it wants to change to sortition the Constitution itself doesn't care. bc finally, Have YOU even read the US Constitution?

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: ERISunveiled

--it's there somewhere.

great. then find it and put it HERE. otherwise, you are just LYING. and unless your next reply is a link to something even remotely substantiating your claim---i will not be responding and you can interpret my silence any way you want, bc I don't care what you think--you have done nothing but waste my time and energy.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

we had a massive dip# run the highest office for... how many years?

One year, one month and three days now.

"you have done nothing but waste my time and energy"

originally posted by: ERISunveiled

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: ERISunveiled

Have you even read the US Constitution?

nope. can't read the tiny cursive. but here's a question for you. Have you even read my post? The thing we're actually talking about? About how we should alter how we select our representatives. bc here's a plot twist--i HAVE read the constitution and it leaves the rules for voting up to the states. so. if a state decides it wants to change to sortition the Constitution itself doesn't care. bc finally, Have YOU even read the US Constitution?

Well, I'd say you've answered your own question if you've actually read the Constitution and know that what you propose is against the Constitution.

But I think you've already stated that your plan is to disregard the Constitution.

So I'll never be able to agree with your premise simply because I've sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

*shrugs*

C'est la vie!

OK. So here's the deal. I have listened to yall's feedback and taken your notes and have revised the initial post to clarify certain positions and counterarguments.

Since i can't edit the OP I will be posting the updated version right here, right now. Enjoy.

====
1/2
====

…Did you know POLITICS IS just the theater of hired guns Elites use to protect themselves from The Masses? Like, imagine someone destroyed labor rights at the behest of major corporations and now you can’t live off your minimum wage job. So you start stealing to survive, but are eventually caught and thrown in jail. But then! the person who sold you out to the corporations gets reelected bc you voted for them bc they said immigrants were taking all the good jobs AND YOU BELIEVED IT! Well… no need to imagine! All bc The Masses don’t take it upon themselves to organize themselves. But let’s have some pity for The Masses—modern society has destroyed any motivation to make real choices about your life. Bc choosing what band of outlaws you’ll go to prison for, or choosing where you’ll earn your slave wages, or choosing which college to go to that’ll keep you in debt for the rest of your life, or even choosing how to exploit the labor of poor people—these aren’t real choices. Bc finally, choosing either to participate in this worldly system of things or dying in the street is also not a real choice. However, there are nice things we have The SYSTEM provides, thus we are compelled to reimagine how IT operates so it merely organizes us without oppressing us + accepting the fact humans are agents of chaos who need constant drama to feel alive. It’s true, and all it requires is flipping 2 key polarities in our Collective Consciousness.

• Conservatives—Highly motivated & disciplined, but bad policies.
• Progressives—Good policies informed by empathy & evidence, but… it’s like herding cats, man.
• Politicians—Actually have power—but power has corrupted them ensuring nothing gets done that doesn’t benefit them personally.
• The Masses—Politically unaffiliated & unmotivated—The Meek.

Now to the extent we have free-will, we can choose to destroy ourselves by continuing to fuel the machine with our dead souls & animated corpses, or we destroy the machine and build a… Novel Global Organization—a phrase that cannot be improved upon. So how do we realign the power dynamics between those four forces to create equality? Simple. But first let’s examine the problems we’re trying to solve.

• Dismantling The Party System

When you don't have political parties, you don't have politicians toeing the party line. When you don't have politicians toeing the party line, you have ppl being people—generally good & kind, not even wanting power & authority.

• Eliminating Elections

Closely related to Dismantling The Party System. This aspect addresses how politicians are incentivized to polarize & radicalize their constituents as a distraction for how they are constantly selling us out to corporate interests bc, you know, reelection campaigns don’t fund themselves!

• Guaranteed Employment

People like working. People like being productive. People like contributing to society. What we don’t like is having our labor exploited and treated like we don’t matter. But some people would have you believe withholding your labor means you’re lazy, as opposed to having basic self-respect. So let’s not ask, should we work? But HOW should we work?

• Rebooting Public Education

You remember in math class how you’d always wonder when you’d need to know about fractions in the ‘real world?’ But the teacher never once related it to understanding how money works? A thing most ppl are actually interested in? So. Let’s have schools teach us how the real-world works, and not just doing things bc someone with authority said so. Like, if you don’t want ppl constantly disrupting society bc they feel the need to rebel; try structuring society on teaching ppl why things are the way they are instead of hierarchies.

And since our current school sanctioned ignorance keeps us dependent on corporate products, services & employment—the same corporations elected officials & political parties are all too happy to sell us out to—we create a system that: Dismantles the Party System, Eliminates Elections & Guarantees Employment.

Talking about our failing educational system, unemployment, stagnant wages, increasing distrust in our political leaders & institutions as ONE problem creates the solution: get rid of elections & select ppl at random to fill all govt positions—including cops, judges & military + corporate leadership.

Once someone turns 18, and if they have at least an 8th grade education, they will be randomly selected for govt service for a single, two-year term. Afterwards they will have two years off where their previous work will be evaluated & ranked thereby clearing them for or denying them access to other positions with greater influence. After two years of vacation, they will be eligible for another two-year term in govt service determined by lottery & previous experience.

One key to making it work is a revamped school system organized around civics. Not just a single course in high school, but every class & course K-12 will be taught as it relates to civics—especially history & math. Another key is using Sortition to fill bureaucratic roles as well as the legislative (also cops & judges) + a new, vast oversight body that monitors bureaucrats, politicians & each other for corruption. Now. What if… everyone could do their job anonymously? Like all govt. monitors, bureaucrats & politicians were tied to an encrypted ID that kept their personal identity anonymous but still accountable in terms of their job performance and/or corruption?

The New System would be designed to employ roughly 1/2 of the eligible population thereby reducing an individual's workweek to 20 hours. The other half not employed will receive a vacation salary exactly on par with their employed counterparts. And bc no one is actually forcing you to do this, those who choose not to participate will not receive a vacation salary when the time comes. But for those who would like to participate but are tied to their own business we propose a Bureaucratic Regulation & Assistance Program (BRAP) for commercial & non-profit businesses. Depending on the size of the business, X number of govt bureaucrats assigned to a business will help with the day-to-day grind. A similar govt. program could also be used to post jobs companies need filled on a daily basis from which you could pick and choose from as part of your govt service. Obviously, certain jobs would only be offered to certain ppl with a certain education & experience. And if no one wants to work for you then the assigned bureaucrat could figure out solutions to get workers in the door—like making it so employees don't have to pee in bottles.

==
2/2
==

Look. We are social animals with complex languages, and so the codification & formalization of social norms into an organizing principle is kinda inevitable one way or another. And there’s no version of a social contract where no one isn’t occasionally inconvenienced by the rules or conventions or just by the reality of a situation. The essential conflict in any society is between The Individual & The Collective. Managing that conflict to be as fair & balanced as possible has been the Great Work of the Ages. So... What do you think?

“What about Freedom and the Constitution? This is literally fascism!”

Woof. But it is a consistent response from both the Left & Right. FYI. Fascism is rule by dictator, and Sortition is just an alternate means of selecting our representatives—and this version of Sortition has term limits. So calling it Fascism is simply wrong. What really surprised us is anyone would seriously believe that picking only one of two people out of millions for an important govt role like President was real "FREEDOM." Honestly, imagine that choice in any other situation. If you went to the store and there were only two kinds of drinks for sale no one would say that is real freedom of choice. That would only count as freedom FROM choice. And the Constitution thing is even simpler to counter—rules for elections are up to the states to decide. Changing to Sortition would be a States Rights issue. So. Finally, it comes to this—are we willing to exchange the ILLUSION of choice for We The People wielding the levers of power directly? To not rely on conservatives or liberals who will defend our current system not in spite of the corruption & incompetence, but BC it allows them “THE FREEDOM” to wallow in their own victimhood.

Obviously, this is a radical idea that will take time for some to understand and believe in, and those of us who do believe in it need to be patient & persuasive.

This proposal is about rethinking how our representatives are chosen with a method called Sortition. There's some extra stuff about incentivizing people to participate, hold them accountable, and make it less intrusive, but it’s not intended to be perfect or dictate specific policies for our representatives.

What we need now are various groups to draft this proposal as an official bill, have a public debate on which version We The People want put in place, and then in one final irony of our current system—vote for people to implement this new system.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

In all actuality, this is a very interesting op, and I hope it doesn’t die quickly. Are you any closer to understanding the resistance? Freedom is not a hard concept to understand, but it means different things to different people. Maybe I should ask what freedom means to you.

This is not a cut leveled at you, but your proposal sounds like some kind of college project by someone who has never worked in the real world. College professor perhaps?

Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. It was put in place as an entry level wage for teenagers and old people looking for extra bucks. You would advance from there after gaining actual work experience. That’s why $25 an hour is ridiculous. What would be a starting wage in a factory, surely not the same as working for Mc Donald’s. Say $100 per hour? Again ridiculous.

Serious question here, can you give some examples of where Sortition has worked? The concept has been around awhile, so it should be in use somewhere.

originally posted by: Topcraft
a reply to: ERISunveiled

In all actuality, this is a very interesting op, and I hope it doesn’t die quickly. Are you any closer to understanding the resistance? Freedom is not a hard concept to understand, but it means different things to different people. Maybe I should ask what freedom means to you.

This is not a cut leveled at you, but your proposal sounds like some kind of college project by someone who has never worked in the real world. College professor perhaps?

Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. It was put in place as an entry level wage for teenagers and old people looking for extra bucks. You would advance from there after gaining actual work experience. That’s why $25 an hour is ridiculous. What would be a starting wage in a factory, surely not the same as working for Mc Donald’s. Say $100 per hour? Again ridiculous.

Serious question here, can you give some examples of where Sortition has worked? The concept has been around awhile, so it should be in use somewhere.

idk where your info is coming from so a link would be handy.

The minimum wage was written into law in the 1930's to "stabilize post-depression economy". over the years the minimum wage increased in response to both inflation and economic growth--which would be equivalent to $25 an hour in modern times--it's not a random number.

www.law.cornell.edu...#:~:text=Labor%20Standards%20Act-,Overview,shall%20have%20power%20to%20.%20.%20.

cepr.net...

Sortition was practiced by the ancient Greeks. Wikipedia is a good place to start learning about it

en.wikipedia.org...

That said--Sortition is, broadly speaking, choosing your representatives at random, the benefits being short-circuiting the built-in flaws of the election process which practically incentivizes incompetence & corruption. The drawbacks of Sortition can be mitigated with proper training and motivation.

But--and this is key--it still won't be perfect bc perfection is an impossible standard nothing could ever live up to. almost as if we shouldn't think of real things in terms of perfection, only imaginary things like beauty, stuff that's only in the 'eye of the beholder' --know what I mean?

The minimum wage when it was started, was $0.25. Equivalent to $4.00 today, it was never meant to be a living wage. The statement about teens and old people comes from experience. When I made $1.35 an hour in the sixties, it wasn’t a living wage. It was a way to make a couple of bucks. How could anyone eat, pay rent, insurance, medical bills and pay for transportation on $1.35 an hour. I know this because I lived it.

If Sortition were a good idea, it would have never died with the ancient Greeks. There is no state in the union that would adopt something like this ever. The only way for you to institute this would be by force.


Socialism and communism are great ideas on paper. Many ideas are perfect until you have more than 1 person involved. Then you’re problems grow.

originally posted by: Topcraft
The minimum wage when it was started, was $0.25. Equivalent to $4.00 today, it was never meant to be a living wage. The statement about teens and old people comes from experience. When I made $1.35 an hour in the sixties, it wasn’t a living wage. It was a way to make a couple of bucks. How could anyone eat, pay rent, insurance, medical bills and pay for transportation on $1.35 an hour. I know this because I lived it.

If Sortition were a good idea, it would have never died with the ancient Greeks. There is no state in the union that would adopt something like this ever. The only way for you to institute this would be by force.


Socialism and communism are great ideas on paper. Many ideas are perfect until you have more than 1 person involved. Then you’re problems grow.

well this is why I'm here. You convinced me. it took some persuading but I do see it your way. the minimum wage isn't a living wage. so ima just change my story so NOW it says "Like, imagine someone destroyed labor rights at the behest of major corporations and now you can’t live off your one job. So you start stealing to survive, but are eventually caught and thrown in jail. But then! the person who sold you out to the corporations gets reelected bc you voted for them bc they said immigrants were taking all the good jobs AND YOU BELIEVED IT! Well… no need to imagine"

So there you go. the power of communication has prevailed!

as far as your other comments go, like "There is no state in the union that would adopt something like this ever." yeah? you remember the 60's, right? you remember when they said that about legalizing POT? as far as "If Sortition were a good idea, it would have never died with the ancient Greeks." the fact is it didn't die with the ancient Greeks bc choosing ppl at random is how JURY DUTY works--in all 50 states! so clearly there is a place for it. we're just going to EXPAND its role in how we choose govt. officials . the end.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

Pretty sure legalizing pot didn’t require abolishing the constitution. And yes jury duty works, once you are selected for duty, lawyers pick them apart, and chose who they want based on how they answer questions, so not quite the same as your proposal.

Anyway, good luck on your term paper. The end.

a reply to: Topcraft

Oh you mean the same Constitution that was designed to change? and has changed 27 times? The original constitution didn't protect free speech or guns rights. They had to CHANGE it to do that. And *all Sortition is supposed to change is how we select Representatives--not how they function as a governing body.

So maybe try articulating one clear argument for why the current, OPPRESIVE system should continue to exist--bc I promise you, anything that solves our problems will involve changing the Constitution. bc we got to this point WITH THE CURRENT CONSTITUTION. So maybe try that instead of shouting vague platitudes about "FREEDOM"

and oh yeah, there are of course planned safeguards to keep unqualified people out of office. You should really try reading the proposal