Why do Christians fail so miserably at promoting the faith?

a reply to: Crowfoot

I have no first cause or last cause in that individuals life so I don't know what to say about all those waiting on an anagammin they may or may not return and remember "himself" although after some time messing around? They'll remind him or her; however that is not rightly self awakened.

I'm assuming you're talking about reincarnation here? In Christianity, there is only one human life and then an eternal spiritual life. There is a one time resurrection after death, but there is no reincarnation or any more human lives to live according to our faith.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Why do Christians fail so miserably at promoting the faith?

Because faith is not something you need to promote, sell, impose, or force onto anyone. You either believe, or you don't. You can teach someone how to reason, but you cannot teach someone how to believe. You don't teach someone how to dream. You either dream, or you don't. To have faith is like to fall in love: it cannot be taught, imposed, or forced.

That's why.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Quadrivium

Proselytizing, the thing that so annoys most and is likely what is being discussed is a tenet of some sects, but not even most. Most Christians don't even really try to sit down and have a serious talk about the "Good News" with most other people unless they're open to it and invite it or we're having some kind of discussion like this one and others we tend to have here.

I use to live next door to a church that thought Proselytizing was important. They would knock on my door a few times a year to teach me about their religion. Im a bit of an atheist so we clearly didn't have much in common on the topic.

I never had an issue with their Proselytizing. If I had some time to spare I'd let them explain their opinions. If I was in a rush they respected my time. Thats what tolerance is. They must have known they would never convert me; but I suspect they never stopped praying for me. We where both happy with that argument.

a reply to: Crowfoot

I suppose you missed out that "being god" was the origin of that; Original sin?

The serpent in the story of Adam and Eve was Satan. Satan is a fallen angel who turned against God and decided he would rather be worshipped as God. There's only one God and the Bible tells us that God will throw Satan into the Lake of Fire for deceiving the whole world, when the appointed time comes. Until then, Satan will try to take as many souls with him as he can. Such is free will, not only for us, but for other angels and spirit entities.

I'd say; even if you find "yourself" in heaven? Keep practicing the commandments or precepts as if there were no heaven... even if there is? That heaven likely, isn't yours... and even if it was? How could one deny oneself the living as a man there too?

The good thing about heaven is that there will be no more sin or evil. Following God will come naturally and won't even be a second thought. We will not be living as humans there. The Bible tells us that we will have a "heavenly body" or a "spiritual" body much like the angels currently have. There will be no sleep, pain, sorrow, or death any longer. It will be an eternity of perfection as we can only imagine at this time.

a reply to: Direne

Because faith is not something you need to promote, sell, impose, or force onto anyone. You either believe, or you don't. You can teach someone how to reason, but you cannot teach someone how to believe. You don't teach someone how to dream. You either dream, or you don't. To have faith is like to fall in love: it cannot be taught, imposed, or forced.

That's why.

Actually, that's a pretty good analogy. As Christians, we should be planting the seeds for faith to grow, but ultimately, only the power of the Holy Spirit has the ability to turn that into something real or meaningful which usually requires some level of personal experiences with God along the way.

a reply to: Deetermined

The "serpent" in HInduism is Kundalini the serpent to Buddhists was Muchalinda.

Here's what I don't really understand... the amalgamation taken from here and there; Like parts of "Matthew" are from the Dhammapada a much older book that was excerpted from the Pali Canon.

When the crusades were said to "kill" the serpent? Ignorance of what that even is... seems to be what does that "job". Unfortunately, it has in turn destroyed a lot of life in the process of that ignorance in perpetuation. Like burning all the history out of Mesoamerica from the Olmecs, Toltecs, Mayans, Inca, and Aztec. All because the "snake" was personified as a so called "embodiment" of evil.

If you do not free it in Kundalini? Then yeah I guess so... but that is only half way across. One has to then uproot all that ignorance planted by using the precepts or "commandments" then.

Clinging to not cannon and calling it cannon? From what I see is some guy stole from the Dhammapada and used it in his own likeness or image... the name of protection or guilt? Matthew. If all those so called "saints" need refuge? Perhaps it is just for that sort of reason? Oh so and so is "dead" it's ok to go do this that or the other it's ok to defame etc as dead is dead.

Where would "christ" be sitting if he could see no one in sight "worthy" enough to help him other than in nirodha samapatti or the third noble truth as some have called it? Free but still expected to point the way? Millions of people all going about "ways" then and now. In the ever arising moment of intention... is the center of the "wheel" that thing isn't a gift it's a control.

Real doesn't need believers... knowing? Pffft shut up and get back to your work and get out of the way of others.

a reply to: Crowfoot

Here's what I don't really understand... the amalgamation taken from here and there; Like parts of "Matthew" are from the Dhammapada a much older book that was excerpted from the Pali Canon.

Can you give me any specifics on this? I love doing research and any details you can give me that might speed up my search would be appreciated.

In the Bible, many of the stories are repeated from different authors from their own perspectives, such as the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke in the Bible. Otherwise called, the "Synoptic Gospels".

We also know that different ancient religions have many similarities with the current ones, but use the names of other gods. There's no doubt that the deceiving entities in this universe (the serpent being one) have done everything they can to confuse the situation and hide truth whenever and wherever they can.

a reply to: Crowfoot

Where would "christ" be sitting if he could see no one in sight "worthy" enough to help him other than in nirodha samapatti or the third noble truth as some have called it?

I have no idea what the nirodha samapatti or third noble truth is, but according to Christianity, NO ONE is "worthy" of salvation, it's a gift of mercy from God, knowing that we're all a bunch of misfits, but he loves us anyway. You may be aware of the story in the Bible where there was a global flood and only one family was saved to start the population over again? Even if there was no human worth saving, Jesus Christ would still be sitting at the right hand of God where he belongs, most likely planning his next creation.

Real doesn't need believers... knowing?

That's just it, we have absolutely no idea what "real" is outside of this human life and existence, and it doesn't help that our earthly leaders are now trying to convince everyone that "real" and "truth" are now subjective based on whatever we want it to be.

The only thing we have is faith. Faith that our personal experiences with God are real and worth pursuing. In this fallen world, that's good enough for me! LOL!

a reply to: dandandat2

Yes, but the type of person who would start this thread isn't you, though.

Quite a few people don't like it at all because God stung them as a child or something.

Even though I'm Christian, I still get the Jehovah's witnesses from the Kingdom Hall down the road. Some Christian sects subscribe to the No True Scotsman belief too. JWs are like that.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Crowfoot
...
I have no idea what the nirodha samapatti or third noble truth is, ...

Buddha’s enlightenment had to do with how to escape from the endless cycle of rebirths. How would that be possible?

By recognizing the “Four Noble Truths,” which may be summarized as follows: (1) All living is painful; (2) Suffering is due to craving or desire; (3) When desire ceases there comes a release from suffering; (4) The way to release from suffering is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path consisting of four ethical precepts​—right speech, effort, conduct and work—​and four mental precepts​—right views, hopes, attentiveness and contemplation.

So it is desire, in Buddha’s opinion, that links a person to the chain of rebirths. To escape from it one must extinguish all desire for things pleasing to the senses. All craving for life as we know it must be suppressed. Meditation was viewed as a means to that end.

The kind of meditation that he advocated involves concentrating all of one’s attention on a single object, a certain part of the body or perhaps on a phrase or riddle. In time, the mind empties of all other thoughts, feelings and imagination. Through such meditation some have even developed “superhuman qualities” or abilities, including levitation, ability to project an image of themselves to a distant place and mental telepathy. It is said that one meditating can get to a point in which he is indifferent to pain or pleasure and no longer desires life or any of the pleasures associated with it. At this point he is said to become free of the necessity of rebirth. He has reached Nirvana. What is that?

Professor of Sanskrit Walter E. Clark explains that Nirvana is a state which “cannot be reached or described by human knowledge and words.” It is “utterly different from all things in the knowable world.” Does that sound desirable to you? Would a state in which you are neither aware of life nor desire it help you to cope with the problems you face in life?

Man has an inborn need to worship God. That is why he has always had some form of religion. Can Buddhism satisfy man’s spiritual need? Can it answer his questions about how the universe came about, how life came to be upon earth, why wickedness exists and whether it will ever end?

Concerning the origin of the universe, Buddha said: “The origin of phenomenal existence is inconceivable, and the beginnings of beings obstructed by ignorance and ensnared by craving is not to be discovered.” Buddhist writings say that the universe evolved from the dispersed matter of a previous universe that wore out. In time Buddhists expect that the present one will dissolve and that out of it will arise another. (see also The Pagan Religious Roots of Evolutionary Philosophies and Philosophical Naturalism (part 1 of 2; playlist), and in particular at 7:10 for this specific view regarding the universe)

Zen Buddhist expert Daisetz T. Suzuki emphasized:

“To us Orientals . . . there is no God, no creator, no beginning of things, no ‘Word,’ no ‘Logos,’ no ‘nothing.’ Westerners would then exclaim, ‘It is all nonsense! It is absolutely unthinkable!’ Orientals would say, ‘You are right. As long as there is at all a “thinking” you cannot escape getting into the dilemma or the bottomless abyss of absurdity.’” [Italics added]

How do you feel about that? Do you wish to believe in something that is admittedly “nonsense” if a person uses his thinking ability? In your own experience have you found that thinking leads only to “dilemma or the bottomless abyss of absurdity”? Are you more successful in coping with the problems of life when you refrain from thinking? Is it really enlightenment to say there is no Creator and to believe in an unprovable theory of evolution? Such a philosophy could never satisfy your spiritual needs. In fact, it failed to do so even for followers of Buddha in ancient times.

Professor Albert S. Geden explains:

“The human craving for an ideal or idealized object of love and homage was too strong. . . . The desire was met, and found its satisfaction, in the deification [after his death] of [Buddha] himself; . . . With him were reintroduced the Hindu deities, or the more important and popular of them. But they were always subordinated in attributes and power to the Buddha. And thus a system in theory deistic became a practical polytheism.”

Toward the beginning of the Common Era images of Buddha made their appearance. The simple places of Buddhist devotion were changed into elaborate temples. Some of these temples also contain images of the Hindu gods Vishnu, Siva and Ganesha. Buddha’s refusal to enlighten his followers about God left a vacuum that was filled by his own deification and by adopting gods and practices of other religions.

What about guidance for everyday life? Buddhism does contain some moral precepts. There are, for example, the “five precepts” against killing, stealing, adultery, lying and drunkenness. But moral precepts alone are not sufficient. People need a reliable guide for making everyday decisions. Where do many Buddhists turn for such guidance? Professor L. A. Waddell observes:

“Divination is sought after by the majority of professing Buddhists in matters of almost everyday business, as well as in the great epochs of life​—birth, marriage, and death—​or in sickness. . . . The Burmese, who may be taken as a type of the [conservative] ‘Southern’ division of Buddhists, are lettered in the bonds of horoscopes and witch-doctors.”

Buddhists, like everyone else, have a need for spiritual guidance on matters. Because Buddha’s philosophy does not fill that need, they resort to divination.

Divination (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1)

Divination embraces generally the whole scope of gaining secret knowledge, especially about future events, through the aid of spiritistic occult powers. (See SPIRITISM.) For consideration of specialized aspects of divination, see ASTROLOGERS; CONJURER; FORETELLER OF EVENTS; MAGIC AND SORCERY.

Origin. The birthplace of divination was Babylonia, the land of the Chaldeans, and from there these occult practices spread around the earth with the migration of mankind. (Ge 11:8, 9) ...

See Babylon the Great (Reasoning From the Scriptures):

... Following the Flood of Noah’s day, false religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon). (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole.

...

Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide

“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.

Their gods: There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40) “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

Use of images: “[In Mesopotamian religion] the role of the image was central in the cult as well as in private worship, as the wide distribution of cheap replicas of such images shows. Fundamentally, the deity was considered present in its image if it showed certain specific features and paraphernalia and was cared for in the appropriate manner.”—Ancient Mesopotamia—Portrait of a Dead Civilization (Chicago, 1964), A. L. Oppenheim, p. 184.

Belief regarding death: “Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.

Position of the priesthood: “The distinction between priest and layman is characteristic of this [Babylonian] religion.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1948), Vol. 2, p. 861.

Practice of astrology, divination, magic, and sorcery: Historian A. H. Sayce writes: “[In] the religion of ancient Babylonia . . . every object and force of nature was supposed to have its zi or spirit, who could be controlled by the magical exorcisms of the Shaman, or sorcerer-priest.” (The History of Nations, New York, 1928, Vol. I, p. 96) “The Chaldeans [Babylonians] made great progress in the study of astronomy through an effort to discover the future in the stars. This art we call ‘astrology.’”—The Dawn of Civilization and Life in the Ancient East (Chicago, 1938), R. M. Engberg, p. 230.

...

a reply to: whereislogic

The Buddha said that "need" should be placed in finding a trustworthy friend in the dhamma when seeking association with others; if that person becomes heedless or less than trustworthy? Then wander alone like a rhinoceros.

The fortune telling etc is a thicket of views... or samsara; Suzuki pointed it out as that "bottomless it of absurdity" mentioned earlier.

The world and it's elements are not supported by "thinking" a room left undisturbed is "a thicket of views" but attachment to hearing rupa? One can hear or not hear that thicket of views when it is simply "seen" seeing one's "face" on an object has left their "view" on it "disturbing it or churning the ocean? One will hear that view however seeing the persons "face" on it is "Mara" or the "evil" Buddha pointed out as the "housebuilder".

Thanks for your insertion into this dialog.

Deetermined

Nirodha Samapatti is an attainment or fruition of complete understanding of the noble root cause of suffering that like a dog dragging a bone has no choice knowing suffering he eats knowing the way out of suffering? He drops it.

originally posted by: dandandat2
Christianity is the worlds largest religion; from where does the assertion come that Christians fail so miserably at promoting the faith?

It is true that Islam is currently growing faster than Christianity and may be equally in size in the next 3 decades; that has more to do with birth rates than promotion. Christians seemed to have slowed down on following gods edict to multiply.

originally posted by: quodlibet

originally posted by: dandandat2
Christianity is the worlds largest religion; from where does the assertion come that Christians fail so miserably at promoting the faith?

It is true that Islam is currently growing faster than Christianity and may be equally in size in the next 3 decades; that has more to do with birth rates than promotion. Christians seemed to have slowed down on following gods edict to multiply.

True. One third of all South Koreans are Christians, and there are many Catholics in China.

Missionary Mateo Ricci, a Catholic, was going upriver, having recently arrived in China, about five centuries ago, and he was sitting on a deck bench. Suddenly a cowled figure, a ghost, appeared, sitting beside him, and said: "What are you doing here, bringing a new religion to these people who have very ancient religions?" Ricci panicked and asked: " Are you God or are you the Devil?! ". The ghost tried to calm him down by embracing him, said "I am God" and vanished.

a reply to: quodlibet

I was gone for a long time and forgot how to deal with the icons, so I made the mistake of using the "originally etc." option instead of the " reply" option. Sorry.

1 Corinthians 13:12
King James Version

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I can honestly say I don’t try to lead people to God, I love having debates with others on God. I don’t feel it’s right for me to interfere with their journey. Another reason I get lost on my own journey. I honestly try living a good life. My greatest victory was showing someone that Jesus’ greatest miracle was his message. In a time of might is right he asked us to forgive each other and love each other. I say victory as it helped a staunch atheist understand Jesus beyond water to wine ect miracles. He seemed receptive to why we believe. I have failed with people too many. My ex she hated when I talked of God so I tried to accommodate but God is too important to keep secret. My own sister strongly hates God no idea why but she demanded we reject God. So she doesn’t speak to any of us anymore. We make contact but she’s very clearly against any believer. This is becoming a rambling my apologies. In short I am a human, I fail God but he loves me for some reason.

a reply to: seedofchucky

I understand your point however, we can never truly understand God. We use our flawed understanding to try. As a non trinitarian I see God as separate from Jesus. However if I am incorrect I know enough of Him/them that they will forgive me I hope. This adventure that we call a life is something beautiful and if I only have this last breath I say glory to Jehovah. We as people can be wrong on anything we have made so many mistakes but someone seems to be keeping us from destroying everything. If that’s not a loving father I don’t know what is.

a reply to: Crowfoot
Whereislogic copied and pasted all of the post from the watchtower (the large part that has no quotation marks or link)... here is the link;
wol.jw.org...=25

It is shameful that posters try to pass off others writing as their own.
Not one word in that huge post was original.

a reply to: whereislogic
wol.jw.org...

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I'm not really concerned about the authorship; if they at some point feel guilty about it? Then their religion is working for them if not? They are using it to work for themselves as a personal barrier or shield.

"Parrot saying a prayer" is a common phraseology that states whether one has been absorbing the religions teachings and losing themself entirely into it; The concept of "oneness" or using it for some reason or another that really has nothing but their own stink and delusions all over it.

"Theirs is not to question why; just accept" I suppose could also be accurate... in those that let things speak for them; using such a thing against others though is unwise... as a life left unexamined and yet examining others lives is the same as pointing a finger of condemnation.

After many years of sitting in noble silence; One comes to know how all sorts of beings of and on all planes of existence work, rise and fall.. such a thing I can say with absolute certainty; Is worth learning and looking into no matter the thicket of views you, they or anyone starts with... my disease used to be philosophising no matter what it was I studied.