Civil Debate Please - Why do you refuse to wear a mask?

a reply to: Type1338

The level of the lab depends on the microorganism being handled. Not all viruses need a level 4. Only the most dangerous do. Where my husband works, they have level 3, and they do have viruses being worked with on-site there. I won't say which ones, just that they have some there.

What qualifies an organism for that level of containment is a variety of factors but easy airborne transmissibility would likely be one of them.

a reply to: AverageWang

You more or less did what I thought you would - you ignored the many people who have solid reasons why not masking is better for us in favor of focusing on the people who just feel like it doesn't do much if anything so wearing one is empty compliance.

The question is that compliance has been so forced that there is zero latitude any more for those of us who really have trouble with them. The compliance is so forced that the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) can be openly violated in favor of what many feel is a questionable gesture of little real public health benefit. Here person who reads lips you can no longer communicate effectively in violation of your legal rights because of the COVID mask ordinance.

a reply to: AverageWang

Because ive taken all 3 shots. If i show symptoms ill self quarantine. Anyone unvaxxed left out there made a choice. Its time we all respect each others choices and quit the nonsense.

a reply to: ketsuko

HI Ketsuko,

First of all, I've enjoyed reading your comments, and I thank you for your insight and involvement.

-

This post was a simple question that opened up a good forum in my opinion, and I got a lot more responses than I expected, I'd taken a couple days away from my computer in the new year before settling back down to the grind again for 2022. I've read through every comment, and replied to some immediately, but I've taken the liberty of categorising the responses into appropriate buckets (with some interpretation of course).

The following does not include people that posted "I agree with you" posts, and tries to categorise only those posts that oppose mask wearing. I've also ignored multiple comments, internal replies, insults etc.

Medical Reasons: 7
They Aren't Effective/Don't work: 23,
Masks are bad for your health: 9
"You can't tell me what to do, that's why": 24
People don't wear them properly anyway: 2
"I'm not the problem": 3
CO2/Oxygen deprivation: 5
The virus isn't real: 2
They make us look like robbers, bandits, and villians from the Marvel Universe: 2 (I added this one for fun)

The reason I focussed first on the "Empty Compliance" in my replies so far is because 'They don't work' and 'You can't tell me what to do' were the overwhelming majority of responses, I assure you, I'm not ignoring what I feel can be a very valid reason, it's just that I've not gotten to it yet.

I agree with you, medical exemption should be respected, supported, and accepted. If you struggle to breathe with a mask, then you shouldn't wear one. I believe you mentioned you have a child that needs to lip read to assist them? That must be challenging and I understand your anguish in this instance. I cannot think of a solution to this however, other than actively encouraging people NOT to wear masks? If for example you didn't struggle with wearing a mask (I know you mentioned an asthma problem), but you wanted to be able to effectively communicate with your child in public, I would fully support your right not to wear a mask. That to me is obviously also a valid reason.

I mentioned in a previous comment that I am actually against mask mandates - I want to reiterate this. I don't think we need them, I don't think they're helpful, and as you can see from the results of my tallying, likely have the opposite effect that is desired.

Onto whether or not masks actually work - well, they do. Could they alone be responsible for stopping a pandemic? Hell no. Of course not. Controlling the spread of a virus is a multifaceted approach, masks being just one small risk free and easy way to offer a small amount of protection to those around you.

In terms of viruses being too small and therefore go through masks as if they aren't even there, that's just simply not the way viruses travel. But I don't think you've really been involved in that side of the debate which is fine.

I hope you weren't offended by my lack of response to the 'medical exemption' angle, I assure you, I just needed to actually write a response, and I felt my response to you required a bit more thought than my other responses to the more incendiary replies I've had.

I'm happy to go into more detail about the other categories of responses I've had, but I wanted to address your medical issue to you directly, if you want to talk more about medical exemption then I'm happy to, and if you want to dive into other angles, then lets have at it!

Cheers,
Alex

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I'll leave this here to underscore my point. Here we have a limited community in an extremely isolated area. We have people who better "believe in the science" being a pack of scientists themselves. They know how to maintain a very controlled environment both because they are scientists and because their survival depends on it. They followed all those wonderful things you swear will control the 'Rona ...

AND IT STILL GOT THEM!

Where did I "Swear" anything of the sort?!!!!

Hmmm....debating with antivaxxers always seems to end up with this sort of shouting.

Maybe that is because inevitably people get fed up taking to sn obtuse wall....🤔🤔🤔🤔

originally posted by: FrayedEndsOfSanity

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I'll leave this here to underscore my point. Here we have a limited community in an extremely isolated area. We have people who better "believe in the science" being a pack of scientists themselves. They know how to maintain a very controlled environment both because they are scientists and because their survival depends on it. They followed all those wonderful things you swear will control the 'Rona ...

AND IT STILL GOT THEM!

Where did I "Swear" anything of the sort?!!!!

Hmmm....debating with antivaxxers always seems to end up with this sort of shouting.

Maybe that is because inevitably people get fed up taking to sn obtuse wall....🤔🤔🤔🤔

That works both ways, you know?

originally posted by: homerJ
I wish some of you cared about the Kurds for example, as much as you cared about wearing a basic but effective filter around your face. 1st world fricken problems aye?

You know this goes both ways right? I wish you cared about the "kurds" more than you do about imposing your will on others through a symbolic and ineffective gesture.

a reply to: AverageWang

I will also tell you something else. I've been married to a microbiologist for over 20 years. He has worked in environments up to a level 3 containment lab.

His opinions is the masks are worse than many other measures they wanted to put in place.

Most people are not trained in proper sterile technique, so they're not going to use a mask - and a cloth mask isn't a proper one anyhow - the way it needs to be used. They're going to wear it wrong, it won't be fitted properly, and they're going to be bothered by it and end up touching their face trying to adjust and worry with it far more than they otherwise would, and COVID, like other similar viruses, relies on being transferred to the mucus membranes of your eyes and nose - where you end up touching when you touch your face for any reason.

So when the first wave of the pandemic hit, it was agreed upon in our household that *he* would go out and do the necessary shopping as he had the training and discipline to be aware of what his hands were doing at all times as well as where other people were. It is his career you understand, and he's not dead nor has he had an "incident" of bringing his work home with him. We felt it safest, especially with child who cannot be relied upon to always keep his hands to himself.

When he went, the *last* piece of equipment he considered taking was a mask. He wore gloves. He took sanitizer. He had clorox wipes. He wiped down everything he might touch. He employed proper lab technique for glove removal and sanitized everything before and after and disposed of the gloves in a baggie before disposing of them. I'm sure he did more, but the one thing he didn't do was wear a mask because he didn't want to worry of touching his face especially where they'd make his glasses fog, and touching your face is the number one easiest way to transfer the virus.

And to this day, none of us have had it.

originally posted by: AverageWang

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
ENOUGH!!
[snip]
[snip]

Wrong. From what I see from most of the responses everybody is CERTAIN that masks don't help at all. This is illogical. Even if there is a 10% chance of all the studies indicating their use is beneficial to slowing the spread of illness being correct, then I ask again - why not just wear one? Its easy, you shouldn't have to have anyone make it a law, and in fact I myself am against any mask 'mandates', but I choose to wear one because I can.

In regards to your attitude, I would have expected more civility, but just as you have a right not to wear a mask, [snip].

Then why not argue on favor of personal bubbles? They are unquestionably 100% more effective than masks. If all you care about is the results, why are you arguing in favor of (AT BEST) an ambiguous miniscule benefit when there is something far more effective available?

At least if you made that argument it would reconcile with your proclamations of "unselfishness" because it would actually have an impact.

But instead you fixate on a far inferior response, which shows without a doubt for you and every other mask advocate it's not any saving lives, or being unselfish, or considerate, ITS ABOUT COMPLIANCE.

PS You'd think you mask geniuses would know that an airborne disease can still infect you through your eyes even if the mask was 100% effective.

But you don't actually care about effectiveness or practicality or common sense. Just submission.

PSS nice of you to return to your troll thread to condescend and mock the very people you demanded give respectful answers. A hypocrite from top to bottom.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: network dude

You mean data based upon the PCR tests?

Please excuse me while I ROFLMAO.

I mean the data the CDC uses to control the populace. I know most of it is lies, but if it's going to be used for other means, I'll sure as hell use it as well. Be careful, the floor is where the dog sh1ts.

a reply to: network dude

The problem is that we don't know what's true and what's not.

They've changed their minds so many times and suppressed so many different studies in favor of others that it's hard to tell.

I recall way back at the start of this that I told people that one of the most dangerous things they did during Spanish Flu was not tell the truth to the people. Well, here we have the same thing going on. They've told some truth, of that I have no doubt, but we also know they haven't told the whole truth or only truth from their point of view. So people are acutely aware that there is stuff that's missing and not being told to us. The lack of trust at this point is as damaging as any perceived false information ever could be.

originally posted by: FrayedEndsOfSanity

originally posted by: AverageWang

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
ENOUGH!!
[snip]
[snip]

Wrong. From what I see from most of the responses everybody is CERTAIN that masks don't help at all. This is illogical. Even if there is a 10% chance of all the studies indicating their use is beneficial to slowing the spread of illness being correct, then I ask again - why not just wear one? Its easy, you shouldn't have to have anyone make it a law, and in fact I myself am against any mask 'mandates', but I choose to wear one because I can.

In regards to your attitude, I would have expected more civility, but just as you have a right not to wear a mask, [snip].

Then why not argue on favor of personal bubbles? They are unquestionably 100% more effective than masks. If all you care about is the results, why are you arguing in favor of (AT BEST) an ambiguous miniscule benefit when there is something far more effective available?

At least if you made that argument it would reconcile with your proclamations of "unselfishness" because it would actually have an impact.

But instead you fixate on a far inferior response, which shows without a doubt for you and every other mask advocate it's not any saving lives, or being unselfish, or considerate, ITS ABOUT COMPLIANCE.

PS You'd think you mask geniuses would know that an airborne disease can still infect you through your eyes even if the mask was 100% effective.

But you don't actually care about effectiveness or practicality or common sense. Just submission.

PSS nice of you to return to your troll thread to condescend and mock the very people you demanded give respectful answers. A hypocrite from top to bottom.

I think you're only calling it a troll thread because your view on masks is what you 'know' to be true, so anything other than someone repeating what you believe is seen as a troll. You just don't know. And you've just argued a point for me - if its (at best) a miniscule benefit, why don't you choose to wear one? It's free to do, and its really not inconvenient at all. If you don't have any trouble wearing a mask, what is the negative? If at best it helps a tiny amount which you've just said yourself, why not do everything you can? especially those things that require such little effort for the vast majority of people?

It's got nothing to do with submission, and you're talking as if I think that if everyone just wore a mask the pandemic would be over in a month, I've not said that at all. There are plenty of things we can all do to limit the spread, masks being a cheap, risk free option, that whilst is undoubtedly not as effective as many other things we can do, is still worth doing, because the cost of which is next to nothing.

"PS You'd think you mask geniuses would know that an airborne disease can still infect you through your eyes even if the mask was 100% effective." - this again doesn't make any sense, it's like saying there's no need to lock your doors because thieves will just smash a window anyway.

In regards to how I've conducted myself in this thread - I've been condescending to people that have been condescending to me. I give back what I get that's all.

originally posted by: AverageWang
If you don't have any trouble wearing a mask, what is the negative? If at best it helps a tiny amount which you've just said yourself, why not do everything you can? especially those things that require such little effort for the vast majority of people?

It's got nothing to do with submission, and you're talking as if I think that if everyone just wore a mask the pandemic would be over in a month, I've not said that at all. There are plenty of things we can all do to limit the spread, masks being a cheap, risk free option, that whilst is undoubtedly not as effective as many other things we can do, is still worth doing, because the cost of which is next to nothing.

The disposable N95 masks, the type that was shown to have any sort of effectiveness, are quite expensive. Any other that fall below this standard is about as useful as a prophylactic dispenser in the vatican.

Heck, some even say so on the sodding packet that they're useless.

That's the danger of comments like yours, giving people false sense of protection. Would certainly explain the continued high amount of cases.

I wore a mask at work and in public places for over a year. Now I usually do not. I believe it is repressive government control imposing restrictions just to show they are doing something but in many cases they themselves are not following the same rules and don’t appear they need to stay home or always wear a mask.

People are often wearing the same old mask for days or weeks so in that respect, I doubt the masks are stopping germs from spreading. If you are coughing or sick, the best defense is to stay home. Do not go to work or church where you can get others sick. I see and hear sick people doing both. The masks are not like body armor that can stop bullets. Even people that are wearing them pull them down when speaking which makes the masks ineffective.

The masks have been very uncomfortable for me to wear. I noticed I prefer to visit places where many or most other people are not wearing masks and are not sick or coughing etc. In my opinion this tells me they are healthy or not sick and have common sense by staying home when they are sick just like smart people used to do before COVID. You always had stupid or people who did not care going to church sick and wanting to shake your hand to spread their germs and viruses before COVID. You still have workplaces that do not tell you if you have sick days. I’ve been told before years ago employees have no sick days. Even now even though I’ve been told if you are sick to stay home, I have not heard you can take up to 5 sick days per year or any such number of days off. If I get a slightly runny nose or sneeze no one says go home. It could be allergies or a minor cold. Most people do not care about minor stuff. I do not want to be sick or around sick people though. The county I live in does not have a mask mandate. Work does if not vaccinated.

The nearby county has a mask mandate but law enforcement is not enforcing it and bars and clubs or at least 2 I visited have not been wearing any for months. I did see 2 people a couple months ago sitting at a table with masks on. They were the only ones and looked like oddballs. As far as I know, I have not gotten sick from going anywhere without a mask. I have become sick from going to church where other sick people were and shook their hands in years past and suddenly was sick. Going out sick to church or work and shaking hands etc, grabbing door knobs after sick people spread their viruses onto surfaces, that’s how viruses spread rapidly. Just stay home if you are sick. Tell others to use common sense and stay home if your kids are sick. Do not take your sick kids to church. Do not go out in public or to work if you are obviously sick. Tell churches and employers to tell people to stay home if in doubt. Grant sick days at work and don’t keep it secret. I know that can be debatable because some employees might pretend to be sick on occasion.

I do believe masks can help prevent others from getting sick but if compliance is not 100% I don’t want to wear one. I don’t think healthy people with no symptoms should have to wear one either. Almost everyone has had a chance to get vaccinated in the US if they were that worried about dying from the virus. I was blocked from seeing my mother in person the last year she was alive for over 99% of the year because of all these restrictions. I’m ready to drop all mask wearing unless they situation is dire in local hot spots.

I am hoping by the end of this month hospitals are no longer crowded and we can treat omicron like a common cold and drop all the mask mandates. Use common sense. Stay hone if obviously sick. Keep sick kids home.

I believe the mask mandates were started by politicians that decided some people have no common sense. Some people do not. They go to church sick and take sick kids to church. Sometimes they go to work sick because of uncertainty if they have sick days or they are thinking it’s allergies or just a little cold.

Depending on where you are, throw a snowball through a screen door. If you do it you will notice that some of the snow gets through. The snow that gets through is composed of fine particles. Now compare that to a cough or sneeze from someone wearing a mask. The particles that are being pushed through the mask because of the cough or sneeze are reduced to being fine particles because the mask acts as a diffuser. The particles that go through the mask are the exact particles that we don't want. They can hang inthe air and travel a significant distance. It is also possible for those same particles to be sucked in through a mask. When I say this I keep getting told that I don't have a degree in microbiology or epidemiology. I don't. What I do have is a degree in Mechanical Engineering and specialize in Heat and Flow modeling. I could care less about the virus. Now the particles that the virus is attached to is a different matter. Once the virus is attached to mucus or whatever else it is attached to, the microbiologists and Epidemiologists are out of the equation. It is now a particle flow problem and that IS my field.

Because I'm adult enough to know how not to spit everywhere like a mouth breather 🤷🏻‍♂️