Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor says a FETUS is the same as a BRAIN-DEAD Person.

originally posted by: marg6043
I am pro choice and i base my believes in life on actually religion, the soul enters the body at birth to become a full human.

And that is my opinion a fetus do not have consciousness until is born.

Does the soul enter the baby as it is being born in pieces?

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: ketsuko

Why bother answering you... you will just tell me they aren't enough worth your consideration...
While you harp about babies being aborted days before their birth or being mistaken for being not yet viable babies...

How many women are choosing to get pregnant seriously thinking that they could possibly end up being jailed because state prosecutors wanted to believe they deliberately fell down the stairs to cause a miscarriage, or that the miscarriage was caused by a drug she may have took and not the umbilical cord that was wrapped around it's neck. How many are thinking, hey, if I happen to miscarry, the doctors might do nothing about it till I am septic and close to dying?
How many are wondering, is this the month my birth control is gonna fail. How many men would become miserable aholes if their wives decided one day she had enough children and wasn't gonna have sex anymore?

To me, what she was implying was that since we now have safe haven laws... and mothers can abandon the babies after they have them, they aren't forcing motherhood onto anyone.

That's why we need better education.

Abrahamic religions will claim (without scriptural evidence) that a baby gets a soul the very moment the egg and sperm combine. But to make a law about that would require the state to endorse one group's belief about the supernatural.

If the coursework in highschool actually explained what happens with the fetus' brain development, and students begin to understand the difference between thinking vs. non-thinking organisms, we would get a more enlightened set of policies, and you would NEVER have to afraid of not being able to get an abortion.

To kill a non-thinking organism cannot ever be a crime, because there is no person being victimized. People are the only things that matter in the world.

a reply to: SammyB0476

I am pro choice only to at most 10 weeks gestation which gives a couple nearly 2 months to make that decision.

They already made the decision (1% or less, don't get a choice).

Consenting adults who make the choice to have sex agreed to partake in the act of procreation.
They agreed knowing how babies are created and from whence they come.
That was THEIR choice.
Their agreement.
Once mitosis begins in the fertilized egg, the third-party they agreed to try and produce has entered the equation.
A human being with their own unique DNA.
The choice was made and agreed upon.
Another person should not lose their life due to buyers remorse.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Define what you mean about thought though.

It is pretty much a crime to kill animals the way we slaughter the unborn. To be honest with yourself, it's not even done in a manner that assumes they feel any pain at all, so inject saline to burn them alive and we dismember them in the womb as though they feel no pain at all. The most heinous ones are to deliver them forcibly with drugs and then stab them in the brain just before it exits the body as though that's some "magic" barrier keeping them from being alive and human. Oh, and then there are the times when something "goes wrong" and the abortion results in a live birth and they just stick the baby on a shelf in a closet somewhere until it dies on its own.

So what level of "unthinking" are we going for? All the world is outraged when you see animals being burned to death or ripped limb from limb while still alive.

And this is assuming you think an animal is completely unthinking with no soul. This also recognizes that most of the time, when we kill animals we do so for reasons related to our needs - food. Most people find the idea of simply putting animals to sleep at shelters abhorrent because they are being killed for convenience.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: ketsuko

Why bother answering you... you will just tell me they aren't enough worth your consideration...
While you harp about babies being aborted days before their birth or being mistaken for being not yet viable babies...

How many women are choosing to get pregnant seriously thinking that they could possibly end up being jailed because state prosecutors wanted to believe they deliberately fell down the stairs to cause a miscarriage, or that the miscarriage was caused by a drug she may have took and not the umbilical cord that was wrapped around it's neck. How many are thinking, hey, if I happen to miscarry, the doctors might do nothing about it till I am septic and close to dying?
How many are wondering, is this the month my birth control is gonna fail. How many men would become miserable aholes if their wives decided one day she had enough children and wasn't gonna have sex anymore?

To me, what she was implying was that since we now have safe haven laws... and mothers can abandon the babies after they have them, they aren't forcing motherhood onto anyone.

That's why we need better education.

Abrahamic religions will claim (without scriptural evidence) that a baby gets a soul the very moment the egg and sperm combine. But to make a law about that would require the state to endorse one group's belief about the supernatural.

If the coursework in highschool actually explained what happens with the fetus' brain development, and students begin to understand the difference between thinking vs. non-thinking organisms, we would get a more enlightened set of policies, and you would NEVER have to afraid of not being able to get an abortion.

To kill a non-thinking organism cannot ever be a crime, because there is no person being victimized. People are the only things that matter in the world.

This actually has nothing to do with religion.
It's about science.
Biology.
Don't you trust the science?
When the soul enters the body can not be proven.
When you become conscious can not be proven.
So, scientifically, what can we prove?
Every human being has their own unique DNA.
They get this DNA from two doners and it develops when mitosis begins in a fertilized egg.
You are right though, we need better education. People don't understand simple biology.

a reply to: Quadrivium

This right here. While I will not deny I am religious and do find abortion repugnant on those grounds, I also find murder, rape, theft and host of other things repugnant on religious moral grounds as well.

The argument from the left that we ought not consider any restrictions on anything at all because someone once said they find it morally repugnant as result of their religious views is facile. I also know, having carried a child myself, that at some point there is a living being inside you and that being is never ever anything other than human. If we believe in the basic rights as outlined in our Founding, that being has a right to its life, and that life ought not be denied it for anything other than the gravest of circumstances.

For me, the only sane choice is to avoid putting yourself in the position if the idea of carrying another human being to term is so terrible to you. I realize that's less fun since you won't be hooking up with a man, just your sex toy, but it is the only absolute way to avoid what you can't do without committing murder. Now, if you can be responsible about it and realize that if you do engage in sex with a man that life, um, sometimes finds a way, then you deal with it. No one says you have to raise any child that results. There are families who want children, and it would be far easier to get your child in their hands if the state was less busy about worrying if the agencies were woke enough and giving an anal and financial fisking to every family that wanted to.

We would adopt ourselves if it wasn't so annoying and time consuming and expensive and difficult.

a reply to: ketsuko
Agreed.
I am a very spiritual person myself and consider myself to be a Christian.
I could argue over when you become conscious or sentient or get a soul, but I don't have to.
Some people use those arguments to muddy the water and take the abortion argument out of the realm of science and into the realm of religion.
They do this because they don't want to argue the science. They will lose. So they argue the religious implications of abortion instead.

a reply to: Quadrivium

Every human being has their own unique DNA.
They get this DNA from two doners and it develops when mitosis begins in a fertilized egg.

There are 10s of 1000s of individual human beings, men, women, boys, girls and babies, with their own unique DNA, at our southern border begging for their lives to be rescued from certain death. Do we, as a collective society, have a duty to house, feed, clothe and provide medical care for them because they have individually unique DNA? If not, why does a woman have a duty to house, feed and provide medical care for a fertilized egg, an embryo or a non-viable fetus that she doesn't want?

a reply to: Sookiechacha

There are 10s of 1000s of individual human beings, men, women, boys, girls and babies, with their own unique DNA, at our southern border begging for their lives to be rescued from certain death. Do we, as a collective society, have a duty to house, feed, clothe and provide medical care for them because they have individually unique DNA?

They're getting in, aren't they?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

And then they're being sent back to Mexico.

Number of people granted asylum down 40% on last year, according to Home Office stats

Also, we reject a lot of asylm claims, not because lives aren't at risk, but because of the reasons their lives are at risk, like economics or displacement due to earthquakes, volcanoes and flooding, to name a few.

a reply to: Sookiechacha
Because THEY made the decision to do so.

originally posted by: Quadrivium
a reply to: Sookiechacha
Because THEY made the decision to do so.

If they're looking for an abortion, obviously, they did not make the decision "to do so".

It's often said that women are in charge of their bodies. The question here seems to be are they also in charge of the bodies that grow inside them.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Quadrivium

Every human being has their own unique DNA.
They get this DNA from two doners and it develops when mitosis begins in a fertilized egg.

There are 10s of 1000s of individual human beings, men, women, boys, girls and babies, with their own unique DNA, at our southern border begging for their lives to be rescued from certain death. Do we, as a collective society, have a duty to house, feed, clothe and provide medical care for them because they have individually unique DNA? If not, why does a woman have a duty to house, feed and provide medical care for a fertilized egg, an embryo or a non-viable fetus that she doesn't want?

If we do that for illegals will you agree to end all abortions?

a reply to: Granitebones
If they aren't, who is? She is the only one fully capable to be in charge. If the women decides she wants to take a road trip... the baby isn't in any position to refuse and really, no one is in the position to prevent it unless they want to take her car keys away and prevent her from finding someone with a car for her use. If baby doesn't like beer and mom does.... baby can't stop her and really no one else can. And if the women wants to take a walk down a back alley and terminate... chances are good, no one would be able to stop her.
What the heck store employees can't seem to prevent unmasked customers from raising hell in their stores even..

a reply to: Sookiechacha

And then they're being sent back to Mexico.

So you're saying after the abortion, we can put the baby back?

Ewwwww....

I don't think it works that way.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Sookiechacha

If they're looking for an abortion, obviously, they did not make the decision "to do so".

So now you're saying that people who want an abortion do not make the decision to have an abortion?

Are you using Mr. Fingers and Mr. Brain today? You seem more confused than normal.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

So now you're saying that people who want an abortion do not make the decision to have an abortion?

No. I'm saying that women who have sex have not made the decision to conceive, especially if they're seeking an abortion.

So you're saying after the abortion, we can put the baby back?

I'm saying that ejected and rejected asylum immigrants who also have unique DNA, are not spared because their DNA is unique. I'm saying, I don't think the unique DNA argument hold water when defending unborn life.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Granitebones
If they aren't, who is? She is the only one fully capable to be in charge. If the women decides she wants to take a road trip... the baby isn't in any position to refuse and really, no one is in the position to prevent it unless they want to take her car keys away and prevent her from finding someone with a car for her use. If baby doesn't like beer and mom does.... baby can't stop her and really no one else can. And if the women wants to take a walk down a back alley and terminate... chances are good, no one would be able to stop her.
What the heck store employees can't seem to prevent unmasked customers from raising hell in their stores even..

You've made your position abundantly clear. Do you believe your argument is going to convince a pro-lifer who believes a pregnant woman with all kinds of icky hormones flowing through her is in any position to make a rational decision?

originally posted by: Granitebones

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Granitebones
If they aren't, who is? She is the only one fully capable to be in charge. If the women decides she wants to take a road trip... the baby isn't in any position to refuse and really, no one is in the position to prevent it unless they want to take her car keys away and prevent her from finding someone with a car for her use. If baby doesn't like beer and mom does.... baby can't stop her and really no one else can. And if the women wants to take a walk down a back alley and terminate... chances are good, no one would be able to stop her.
What the heck store employees can't seem to prevent unmasked customers from raising hell in their stores even..

You've made your position abundantly clear. Do you believe your argument is going to convince a pro-lifer who believes a pregnant woman with all kinds of icky hormones flowing through her is in any position to make a rational decision?

LOL

Yeah, they should stay home, not work at jobs that require rational thinking, certainly they should not operate heavy machinery, like an automobile or minivan, and we probably should find someone to watch the kids while mommy's preggers, too! You know, she might just up and kill them!