Evangelical Lutheran church installs 1st transgender bishop

originally posted by: vonclod

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: vonclod

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: vonclod
Kinda getting weird but..meh, don't care. Doesn't bother me, or effect me.

Agree it's getting weird, don't blame you that it doesn't bother you, but effect you? If you live in the world it sure does.

Well, how would it effect me..for the sake of argument

Because, we're effected by things around us, both as individuals and in our society. As I wrote in my opinion, I have very little personal qualms against a person who lives a trans lifestyle individually. I don't agree with it in a spiritual sense, but I don't allow it to bother me, certainly. However, as an agenda I feel differently, and I don't see how one could refute that there exists a clear and present agenda as it relates to this whole thing. This was literally a non-topic up until a few years ago, and now you have kids coming home from kindergarten saying they are the opposite sex (and parents supporting this while the medical community plies forth with medical intervention). These things effect us all.

But you don't have to participate, for me, thats about it. I do question where we're heading, and I do understand the concern about what may, or may not being going on in schools. But it still does not effect me personally, by that, there is nothing I can, or can't do, because of this..trend?

I do hear what you're saying...I do. My point, whether you agree with me or not, is that non-participation as you suggest does not release you from the effects hoisted upon the society in which you live. This was simply a thread which brought to ATS an article. I never proclaimed a revolution or call to change, so whether there is something you can or can't do about it is irrelevant (it was never a part of the thread). But I do know this, you cannot remove yourself from it by force of will. Our society is changing and this is part of it. One way or another it affects us all...

a reply to: TheMirrorSelf

but effect you? If you live in the world it sure does.

A Lutheran transgender bishop has absolutely zero impact on my life. Beyond that, whatever is going on with transgenders in general is not my problem or concern. The exception to me not caring about what they do excludes dudes using the women's bathroom or going to some place like women's only gym or spa. People with a penis should not be using the women's bathroom, etc.

originally posted by: tamusan
a reply to: TheMirrorSelf

but effect you? If you live in the world it sure does.

A Lutheran transgender bishop has absolutely zero impact on my life. Beyond that, whatever is going on with transgenders in general is not my problem or concern. The exception to me not caring about what they do excludes dudes using the women's bathroom or going to some place like women's only gym or spa. People with a penis should not be using the women's bathroom, etc.

Well, you're not seeing it, but you refute the beginning of your response with your conclusion.

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf
Please re-read my OP and tell me where I'm judging, and how your having a gay friend who is a deacon in any way refutes anything that I said.

EVERYONE is a sinner. You can't pick and choose which ones you think are bad enough to disqualify someone from being a member of the clergy.

originally posted by: LordAhriman

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf
It's not your place to judge. If the believe in the teachings, and they're good at conveying the message, why does it matter?

Please re-read my OP and tell me where I'm judging, and how your having a gay friend who is a deacon in any way refutes anything that I said.

EVERYONE is a sinner. You can't pick and choose which ones you think are bad enough to disqualify someone from being a member of the clergy.

Ok, since you're not going to read my OP, let me explain it to you. Is everyone a sinner? Yes.

Romans 3:23
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

This was never a debate. Secondly, it is not me picking and choosing anyone from being a member of the clergy. I'm not in a position within any church to make such determinations. I simply said that knowing and following the Bible it is inconsistent with Biblical teaching for a church to make that choice, plain and simple. If a clergy-man was found to be a thief, an adulterer, a fornicator, a drunk, then neither should they be permitted to that lofty position, because it is Biblically inconsistent with the instruction found there. You're harping on this specifically because it's about a trans person and fallaciously saying that I, having posted the article which I DID NOT WRITE, am thereby excusing all other stated sins which are an abrogation to the office discussed.

a reply to: MiddleInsite

Says the judgmental non-Christian??

Live and let live seems to be so passé these days, doesn't it??

a reply to: LordAhriman

See, I knew that eventually we'd agree on something...

a reply to: MiddleInsite

You mean like yours? I am talking about that black, hateful, judgmental stuff because surely I didn't detect a hint of it *at all* in your post.

But ALL ARE WELCOME; just like the left is TOLERANT.

I seem to recall something about removing the plank in thine own eye or something.

As to your attempted point that was lost in the dark, yes, all are sinners, but in order to improve, we all have to acknowledge that and try to move away from it, not embrace it. Therein lies the issue with LGBT+BBQ and the church. They embrace their sin and define themselves by it. It's not possible to attempt to move away from it if it's your reason for being.

Everyone talks about the hypocrite Christians who sin all week and then go ask forgiveness on Sunday ... well here we go.

a reply to: TheMirrorSelf

Not really. Because I don't care at all about anything else that a transgender does. Live and let live and all of that. It's just a matter of principle that if you have a penis, you use the men's room. If they have it cut off, then there is no longer a problem for me.

a reply to: TheMirrorSelf

Why did they do it in San francisco? It must be a pandering money thing.

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2
Maybe the Bible and other religions teachings are just suggestions. Sure it might not be a good idea to have a Transgender bishop; but its not a show stopper. A lot more has to go wrong before God starts turning cities into salt.

You sure about that?

Yes, Evangelical Lutheran church installs 1st transgender bishop and they didn't turn to salt.

Can you quote in the Bible where it says that? I must have missed it.

I just quoted life. Evangelical Lutheran church installs 1st transgender bishop and they didn't turn to salt. That happened; it was you who brought it to our attention.

If God doesn't like this behavior he has a big problem; the longer he lets people violate his laws with out ramifications the more people will push the envelope.

Unless of course what I said is more or less true and God does mind much that people are violating his laws so flagrantly.

Your logic is pretty far off here. Firstly, I brought it to the attention of ATS simply by posting in the News forum a story that I read off of my MSN start-up page (I hardly think I was responsible for bringing it to attention). Also, you really should remove yourself from the mind and place of God. You seem to represent His plan in your words. This is silly. I'll just address quickly some of your points. One is the salt thing. The only person who turned to salt was Lot's wife when she turned back toward Sodom (which God destroyed with fire). Secondly, as to God's "problem" as you put it, have you heard of humans behavior in Sodom and Gomorrah before He destroyed those places? What about in the days of Noah before he sent the flood. Humanity was awful in their behaviors, yet God allowed it persist until His chosen time, not yours. You are not God, and so you should refrain from representing yourself as if you are.

I never professed to be a biblical scaler; if it was only Lots wife who turned to salt while the rest of Sodom and Gomorrah just burned in fire and brimstone; so be it. I never said the salt trick was the only tool God has in the tool box.

However your semantic diatribe ignores the point I was making.

A millenia ago; so long ago that we can't actually verify that it happened; God turned Lot's wife into salt for nothing more than having a crick in her neck .... and yet today; when we can verify it; we have the "church" brazenly defying the word of God .... and nothing. No salt, no fire, no brimstone, nothing.

Where's God? Is he on vacation? Has he given up on man?

Why is he allowing his people to brake his rules left right and down the middle everyday all day and nothing? No salt, no brimstone, no fire.

God's a smarter being than I'll ever be and still I can see that if there is absolutely no verifiable ramification to Evangelical Lutheran church installing the 1st transgender bishop it won't be the last.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: TheMirrorSelf

Why did they do it in San francisco? It must be a pandering money thing.

I would simply assume because of the homosexual culture so prevalent there. Just a guess, but I wouldn't think an inaccurate one.

a reply to: dandandat2

There was a period of 400 years between the last Jewish prophet and the first advent of Christ. During that time, God did not speak to the Jewish people in a direct sense. I'm sure they felt very much like you do.

a reply to: dandandat2

Examples?

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2
Maybe the Bible and other religions teachings are just suggestions. Sure it might not be a good idea to have a Transgender bishop; but its not a show stopper. A lot more has to go wrong before God starts turning cities into salt.

You sure about that?

Yes, Evangelical Lutheran church installs 1st transgender bishop and they didn't turn to salt.

Can you quote in the Bible where it says that? I must have missed it.

I just quoted life. Evangelical Lutheran church installs 1st transgender bishop and they didn't turn to salt. That happened; it was you who brought it to our attention.

If God doesn't like this behavior he has a big problem; the longer he lets people violate his laws with out ramifications the more people will push the envelope.

Unless of course what I said is more or less true and God does mind much that people are violating his laws so flagrantly.

Your logic is pretty far off here. Firstly, I brought it to the attention of ATS simply by posting in the News forum a story that I read off of my MSN start-up page (I hardly think I was responsible for bringing it to attention). Also, you really should remove yourself from the mind and place of God. You seem to represent His plan in your words. This is silly. I'll just address quickly some of your points. One is the salt thing. The only person who turned to salt was Lot's wife when she turned back toward Sodom (which God destroyed with fire). Secondly, as to God's "problem" as you put it, have you heard of humans behavior in Sodom and Gomorrah before He destroyed those places? What about in the days of Noah before he sent the flood. Humanity was awful in their behaviors, yet God allowed it persist until His chosen time, not yours. You are not God, and so you should refrain from representing yourself as if you are.

I never professed to be a biblical scaler; if it was only Lots wife who turned to salt while the rest of Sodom and Gomorrah just burned in fire and brimstone; so be it. I never said the salt trick was the only tool God has in the tool box.

However your semantic diatribe ignores the point I was making.

A millenia ago; so long ago that we can't actually verify that it happened; God turned Lot's wife into salt for nothing more than having a crick in her neck .... and yet today; when we can verify it; we have the "church" brazenly defying the word of God .... and nothing. No salt, no fire, no brimstone, nothing.

Where's God? Is he on vacation? Has he given up on man?

Why is he allowing his people to brake his rules left right and down the middle everyday all day and nothing? No salt, no brimstone, no fire.

God's a smarter being than I'll ever be and still I can see that if there is absolutely no verifiable ramification to Evangelical Lutheran church installing the 1st transgender bishop it won't be the last.

Well, my semantic diatribe aside, let me restate, God does not work on YOUR timeline. You're like a child, demanding that things be done as you prefer. Things do not work like that.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As for Lot's wife's crick in her neck, you've missed the point there. It wasn't the physical act of turning around, it was the spiritual/metaphorical act of turning back toward the sin that God had released Lot and his family from. This was also true of the Jews which Moses lead from bonds in Egypt. I can't convince you of the truth of this, I won't try. Search your heart and soul...

2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf

originally posted by: dandandat2
Maybe the Bible and other religions teachings are just suggestions. Sure it might not be a good idea to have a Transgender bishop; but its not a show stopper. A lot more has to go wrong before God starts turning cities into salt.

You sure about that?

Yes, Evangelical Lutheran church installs 1st transgender bishop and they didn't turn to salt.

Can you quote in the Bible where it says that? I must have missed it.

I just quoted life. Evangelical Lutheran church installs 1st transgender bishop and they didn't turn to salt. That happened; it was you who brought it to our attention.

If God doesn't like this behavior he has a big problem; the longer he lets people violate his laws with out ramifications the more people will push the envelope.

Unless of course what I said is more or less true and God does mind much that people are violating his laws so flagrantly.

Your logic is pretty far off here. Firstly, I brought it to the attention of ATS simply by posting in the News forum a story that I read off of my MSN start-up page (I hardly think I was responsible for bringing it to attention). Also, you really should remove yourself from the mind and place of God. You seem to represent His plan in your words. This is silly. I'll just address quickly some of your points. One is the salt thing. The only person who turned to salt was Lot's wife when she turned back toward Sodom (which God destroyed with fire). Secondly, as to God's "problem" as you put it, have you heard of humans behavior in Sodom and Gomorrah before He destroyed those places? What about in the days of Noah before he sent the flood. Humanity was awful in their behaviors, yet God allowed it persist until His chosen time, not yours. You are not God, and so you should refrain from representing yourself as if you are.

I never professed to be a biblical scaler; if it was only Lots wife who turned to salt while the rest of Sodom and Gomorrah just burned in fire and brimstone; so be it. I never said the salt trick was the only tool God has in the tool box.

However your semantic diatribe ignores the point I was making.

A millenia ago; so long ago that we can't actually verify that it happened; God turned Lot's wife into salt for nothing more than having a crick in her neck .... and yet today; when we can verify it; we have the "church" brazenly defying the word of God .... and nothing. No salt, no fire, no brimstone, nothing.

Where's God? Is he on vacation? Has he given up on man?

Why is he allowing his people to brake his rules left right and down the middle everyday all day and nothing? No salt, no brimstone, no fire.

God's a smarter being than I'll ever be and still I can see that if there is absolutely no verifiable ramification to Evangelical Lutheran church installing the 1st transgender bishop it won't be the last.

Well, my semantic diatribe aside, let me restate, God does not work on YOUR timeline. You're like a child, demanding that things be done as you prefer. Things do not work like that.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As for Lot's wife's crick in her neck, you've missed the point there. It wasn't the physical act of turning around, it was the spiritual/metaphorical act of turning back toward the sin that God had released Lot and his family from. This was also true of the Jews which Moses lead from bonds in Egypt. I can't convince you of the truth of this, I won't try. Search your heart and soul...

2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

I can accept that God works on his own time line. That is reasonable to assume. God is both timeless and not beholden to the whims of man.

And I can also observe that in the world we live; which is also on God's time line; it is apparently acceptable for a transgender person to be a bishop. Because a transgender person is now a bishop and God did nothing to stop it from happening.

When and if God takes God's time to do something about this turn of events I, and I suspect most humans, will listen to what God has to say. Until that time we can only assume God does not think it's much of a problem right now.

However if God works on his own timely and will likely deal with this sinning when God thinks it is appropriate; why is it that you feel the need to interject yourself into the issue? Do you not have faith in God's ability to do what is right on this matter with out your help?

a reply to: dandandat2

I'm sorry my friend. I'm out.

a reply to: dandandat2

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 7:19-25

Which basically means that many will think they are going right by Him, and when the day of the Lord comes, He will not know them. So if you think that sin is acceptable in His eyes, you're wrong. Yes, sinners come to Him because we are all sinners, but sin itself is not acceptable. We go before Him to seek to turn away from our sins, not attempt to use Him as a get out of Hell free card.

originally posted by: TheMirrorSelf
a reply to: dandandat2

I'm sorry my friend. I'm out.

I regret your departure. It was a thought provoking conversation. All the best.

I personally don’t have a problem with a transgender bishop, just because they identify as another sex change doesn’t mean they don’t believe or cannot share the word.

I do have a problem with transgenders in sports because it’s not physically fair to all participant. For example I don’t think a biologically born male beating a woman is a sport no matter how they present it.