Thank You Germany & France...for the knife in the back!

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Yeah we did. And then China went to the commies. Taiwan is free. We support all free nations. Taiwan does NOT want to be part of China. Get over it, move on. It's a tiny peacefull island that just wants to be left alone.

Too bad China is so greedy they have to FORCE people to life under their rule...ALL BECAUSE OF MONEY.

What does money have to do with it?

The Taiwan economy is so intertwined with the Chinese economy that Taiwan is making it's economic growth on the back of China at the moment. It initially helped spur growth in China, but that was due to the 49'ner Chinese (the Koumintang that fled there) wanting to invest in they homeland.

Actually, dispite 8 years of Chen Sui-Bien brainwashing.

Taiwan 2004 opinion poll

30% independence
7% reunification
63% status quo

You support all free people?
Just like the Saudi's?

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I understand, and I don't believe that Europe or anyone else should bow to the US. However, more and more I see Americas effort belittled by Europeans. How many millions of Americans died in their name? How many tens of millions since then have stood on call against the USSR? How many TRILLIONS of dollars were spent in part for their defence? What I don't like is this increasing attitude from Europe of "we owe you nothing" and "you didn't do that much for us". The fact is, they have their freedom today mostly because of us.

What SHOULD happen is for Europe to understand that when they sell these weapons, they are betraying an ally that has been through the worst of times, and has done everything in it's power to protect them. If the US sees this as a threat, why would Europe go and help our potential enemy after we sacrificed so much for them? Is a few billion dollars all it takes to betray us? If so, I question if we should have wasted so many of our own on Europe.

Well said AMM, Jesus Christ I thought I was all alone in here, but its damn good to see that there is some sanity in ATS. There still are some real Americans in here.

America spilled her most precious blood to free Europe and now the Europeans have already forgotten our sacrafices, they spit in our face, refuse to help us in Iraq because it interfered with all their dirty deals with Saddam and now their gonna sell weapons to China.

Maximu§

US casualties in both WW1 and WW2 reached roughly 100,000 in each war. Millions, hehe.

AMM,

Why should Americans not be allowed to choose whether they trade with Cuba or not?

I am not asking you to support Cuba all I am asking is that you stop penalising it for no good reason.

LA_Max,

"America spilled her most precious blood to free Europe and now the Europeans have already forgotten our sacrafices, they spit in our face, refuse to help us in Iraq because it interfered with all their dirty deals with Saddam and now their gonna sell weapons to China"

Europe refused to go to war because it was illegal and based on a lie. FACT

US sold weapons to Iraq including the chemicals used on the Kurds.

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 14-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]

Originally posted by LA_Maximus


Well said AMM, Jesus Christ I thought I was all alone in here, but its damn good to see that there is some sanity in ATS. There still are some real Americans in here.

Don't American's like Freedom of Speech? Why is he a real American for having the same view as you? If the Country is such a haven for democracy and freedom shouldn't the real Americans be the ones who exercise this right?

Oduim,

Have you not been listening for the whole of this thread?

If you fail to kiss LA_Max's ass then you are a traitor and a coward.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
AMM,

Why should Americans not be allowed to choose whether they trade with Cuba or not?

I am not asking you to support Cuba all I am asking is that you stop penalising it for no good reason.

LA_Max,

"America spilled her most precious blood to free Europe and now the Europeans have already forgotten our sacrafices, they spit in our face, refuse to help us in Iraq because it interfered with all their dirty deals with Saddam and now their gonna sell weapons to China"

Europe refused to go to war because it was illegal and based on a lie. FACT

US sold weapons to Iraq including the chemicals used on the Kurds.

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 14-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]

Word up!

We (Europeans) have to stabilize all Eastern part of Europe and don't have time to play childish American global domination war games. Americans are like eager beavers. You want all at once.

When Turkey become member of EU, then we will help you stabilize Iraq, because it will be our neighbouring country.

How sad it is that once the worlds most powerful fighting force, the force for freedom and peace has now descended into chaos and blames each other...

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- OK you see belittling (awwwwww

......and if that is the limit of your problems, jeeeez

) the rest of us might well call it simply asserting our own point of view which is markedly different.

There is no point of view here sminkey. The US came to your aid when you DESPERATLY needed us. This is the exact attitude I am talking about. We backed you and spilt blood with you, and the fact is you were stuck on your little island. Without the US you would have waited to see if Germany beat Russia, because if they did you were toast.

We'll do partner, we'll even do friend but you don't have 'leadership' over us in the EU any longer.

We are not your subordinate.
If you can grasp that genuinely and properly we'll get along just fine.

Really Sminky? Because when we say jump, the UK says how high

J/K sminky, you Euros are your own boss. Thats fine with me.

- No this is just ignorance and revisionism gone beserk.

What "millions"?

Go check out the official US casualty figures for WW1 & 2 (even including the pacific war - should we count that as Britain et al defending American interests or does the concept of a 'shared interest' completely disappear from all of this when you want to moan, hmmmm?).

Your right Sminky, I did say millions, when it was only about 1 million...

Regardless, we have sent about 20 MILLION men to defend you, and this is exactly the attitude we get: "we owe you nothing."

For a second I thought maybe you guys would look after a tiny little thing like not giving military technology to our potential enemies after all we have done for you...gues not though.

- I see the idea of a shared interest has just go flying out the window yet again. What about our tens of millions who served protecting this shared interest too, hmmm?

No, actually if you actually READ my posts you would see the MANY times I said the word "MUTUAL" - but don't let what I said stop you from getting all fired up.

The FACT is it was in our intrest, but it was for YOUR lives. Russia wouldn't have touched the US if we didn't get involved. How can you just throw away the fact that a country half way around the world put it's self in danger of total thermo nuclear war over your continent - the same one which caused BOTH damn world wars.

Maybe you shouldn't have bothered.

With the attitude of people like you I wonder...

Maybe we'd have
(a) seen that the supposed 'Soviet threat' was nothing of the sort and that a Europe free of US occupation and direct influence would have come together faster and deeper than actually happened

Oh yeah, those tanks massed at your boarders and millions of soldiers ready to storm Europe were there for show

You are smarter then that Sminky

or
(b) seen the Soviet Union actually dominate Europe, in which case the several decades of enormous economic benefits the USA derived from their access to the open European 'client' markets would never have happened and US economic progress, wealth and general standard of living would have been nothing like that whch happened.

Sorry to break it to you, but there are other markets besides Europe. On the other hand, you WOULD be speaking German or Russian right now, and probably would have been killed for being so outspoken long ago.

- ......and just how many more "TRILLIONS of dollars" did the USA benefit from the economic situation it's open relationship with Europe generated?

Like I said, Europe is not the only market in the world. Besides, in case you haven't noticed there is a bit of a trade imbalance.

What about the billions (if not trillions - "I've told you a million times do not exaggerate!") we Europeans spent defending this shared interest (much of it in America), what about the huge volume of general trade, the ex-British strategic bases around the globe and the loans etc etc, hmmmm?

Oh congrats - you actually contributed to your own defense.

And please, show me where European troops were based in the US protecting us.

General volume of trade? You mean how you sell and we buy? That helps you, not us.

In case you haven't noticed, the US did fine in the 'base' department.

Loans???? Don't even bring that up. Just look at WWII. You guys would have fallen in a matter of months if not for us.

Stop trying to make out it was a deal with the benefits flowing one way, it's just ridiculous, utterly absurd and actually rather pathetic. Sorry but it is.

It was very one sided. And that side wasn't the US's side.

- Naaaaa, sorry but IMO some of you guys are justy sore we are getting a tad fed up with always being expected to tow 'your line' and of being disgracefully villified for it if we have the audacity to actually exercise our supposed shared values of freedom (to say what we think and disagree).

So when we ask the EU not to sell weapons to China that undermine our military, you feel it's just a simple dissagreement?

Well, I guess the next time there is a balkans, we should sell them some weapons.

- Rubbish.
The fact is all of our 'freedoms' exist today because of our collective security, not just because of 1 country.

No Sminky, the US preserved YOUR freedom. Without us, you don't have it - period.

It could even be argued that it was the independant British and French nuclear deterrents that maintained and guaranteed Europe's freedom more than anything.

I actually laughed out loud at that. Nice joke - it was one of those "so bad it's funny" ones.

It was once a widely asked and very fair question as to which US President would swap a nuked and incinerated New York or Washinton for Paris or London.

They all would have, and you know it.

- Yeah except the irksome little flaw in this arguement remains......the US trades far more military stuff than Europe does - right now.

(and before you try to pretend that the US only sells thing like rifles whereas Europe is trying to sell the very latest cutting edge stuff you might like to consider just what the US has recently sold the Chinese.

There is a difference between selling some Boeings and selling MILITARY AIRCRAFT. What military stuff we sell that is cutting edge, we most CERTAINLY do not sell to a nation that represents a direct rival to the UK.

It seems that if you can call it 'civillian' it's no problem at all for you guys - have just about any and all of the latest in aero tech and computer tech it seems , hmmm?

Never mind, sell them some more 787's and another huge chunk of IBM and bitch about Europe and our imagined 'strategic sales'

)

OK - you really need to understand a few things.

First, there is a HUGE difference in selling a Boeing passanger aircraft with civillian computer tech and avionics and selling MILITARY aircraft and hardware!

Then you go off on IBM. You do know that the part of IBM that was sold was simply the MANUFACTURE OF PERSONAL COMPUTERS.

It has no military aplication WHAT-SO-EVER.

American Mad Man, it was no anywhere near a million according to official statistics, it barley made it to 100,000. Do not exagerate. I have a feeling you think the US recovered the Enigma machine too.

Will give you sources if needed.

Originally posted by Kriz_4
US casualties in both WW1 and WW2 reached roughly 100,000 in each war. Millions, hehe.

Try again.

It was about 600,000 deaths and about another million wounded,

And BTW, WTF are you snickering about? You think talking about millions of people killing each other is funny?

Actually I was incorrect, I was looking at naval casualties, apologies.

As for the "snickering", it was at you thinking it was millions, not the death of people.

I was "snickering" at you.

Why are we argueing about the past?
Can we change it?
No...
I personally think the men and women of the allied and the axis armies would be ashamed of this......
Germany and france are doing something that helps them....would america do the same?
We wont know until america gets into this position and it doesnt matter which nut from ethier side tells you we wont know until it happens, because the information he or she will give you will be opinionated....no doubt, no chance thats what will happen.

Originally posted by rapier28
What does money have to do with it?

The Taiwan economy is so intertwined with the Chinese economy that Taiwan is making it's economic growth on the back of China at the moment. It initially helped spur growth in China, but that was due to the 49'ner Chinese (the Koumintang that fled there) wanting to invest in they homeland.

Money has EVERYTHING to do with it. It always does. They add a huge addition to their economy as soon as they take Taiwan. I think thats pretty easy to understand.

Actually, dispite 8 years of Chen Sui-Bien brainwashing.

Taiwan 2004 opinion poll

30% independence
7% reunification
63% status quo

You support all free people?
Just like the Saudi's?

Yes I do. What you must understand is that some of that "status quo" say that because they don't want war, which is EXACTLY what would happen.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
AMM,

Why should Americans not be allowed to choose whether they trade with Cuba or not?

I am not asking you to support Cuba all I am asking is that you stop penalising it for no good reason.

By trading with Cuba, you are supporting Castro - it's that simple. Do you want to support Castro?

Originally posted by American Mad Man
By trading with Cuba, you are supporting Castro - it's that simple. Do you want to support Castro?

The same arguement can be said for tradeing with china though.....with boeing sales does that mean the US is supporting the "comunist" party?...cough again cough

Sry double post....

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by Kriz_4
American Mad Man, it was no anywhere near a million according to official statistics, it barley made it to 100,000. Do not exagerate. I have a feeling you think the US recovered the Enigma machine too.

TOTAL Allied soldiers killed: approximately 12.7 million - United States: 292,000

TOTAL Axis soldiers killed (all): approximately 20.8 million

TOTAL Civilians killed: approximately 39.2 million

TOTAL People killed in World War II: approximately 58 million

Yugoslavia - That was my Country - 1,200,000 Civilans, 300,000 Soldiers

Originally posted by Kriz_4
Actually I was incorrect, I was looking at naval casualties, apologies.

As for the "snickering", it was at you thinking it was millions, not the death of people.

I was "snickering" at you.

Snickering at me for being closer to the actual figure then you?

I am laughing at you

Originally posted by American Mad Man
There is no point of view here sminkey. The US came to your aid when you DESPERATLY needed us. This is the exact attitude I am talking about. We backed you and spilt blood with you, and the fact is you were stuck on your little island. Without the US you would have waited to see if Germany beat Russia, because if they did you were toast.

Mad man, you came and joined in not just to save us..
Also operation sea lion would have failed, we already knew the plan and had a plan in place to counter it.