Thank You Germany & France...for the knife in the back!

I do believe most of europe has "repaid" the debt to most countries....
I mean with the UK paying back the US with blood...

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
Europe owes a debt of gratitude to everyone to came to their aid during the world wars. Canada lost plenty of good men in both.

- Damned straight.
The commonwealth sent huge numbers to remedy the madness in Europe and Canada and Austrailia were prime in this.

But just because they owe a debt of gratitude does not mean that they should run off to a war that was, is and will always be wrong.

- I also find this typically OTT illogical one-way 'debt of gratitude' thing sits very uneasily when set against the record of the significant US trade with Hitler's Germany pre-1941.

(Not that there's ever too much made of that what with the part that played in taking young US lives back then too.

Imagine anyone making much of Prescott Bush, his activities - and those like him - and the numbers of young US lives that then subsequently cost?)

Its a shame that the current administration, instead of being charged with war crimes, was rewarded with a second term in office.

I'll never understand it.

- You don't really think they won a fair and straight election do you?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Damned straight.
The commonwealth sent huge numbers to remedy the madness in Europe and Canada and Austrailia were prime in this.

Yes, but you don't hear much about that do you? Meanwhile, anywhere Canadians go in the world they are respected and welcomed with open arms.

- I also find this typically OTT illogical one-way 'debt of gratitude' thing sits very uneasily when set against the record of the significant US trade with Hitler's Germany pre-1941.

(Not that there's ever too much made of that what with the part that played in taking young US lives back then too.

Imagine anyone making much of Prescott Bush, his activities - and those like him - and the numbers of young US lives that then subsequently cost?)

Yes, seems like its inconvenient to look and dissect the facts. Easier to point the finger and say "do as I say, not as I do."

You don't really think they won a fair and straight election do you?

God no! But since the population didn't rise up and scream at the top of their lungs about it, its like saying that they did win a fair and straight election. Its the same thing as saying what they did is right.

I don't know, maybe I'm naive, but seems to me if you screw up your own country its one thing, but when you screw up someone else's country its quite another...especially when it was never justified in the first place. To me the war trumped everything else for me...no one, and I mean no one could do worse for the U.S.





[edit on 8/4/05 by AlwaysLearning]

Always/Sminkey,

Great posts from both of you.

Do either of you have any ideas as to who you think the Democrats should put up in 2008?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
Europe owes a debt of gratitude to everyone to came to their aid during the world wars. Canada lost plenty of good men in both.

Yes, Europe does owe gratitude to the men who went to fight there during the World Wars, and I think the Europeans have sufficiently celebrated those brave soldiers, airmen and sailors. But the people of Europe do not owe you or I, those of us born after the WW2 generations, a single thing.

Cargo,

Originally posted by cargo

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
Europe owes a debt of gratitude to everyone to came to their aid during the world wars. Canada lost plenty of good men in both.

Yes, Europe does owe gratitude to the men who went to fight there during the World Wars, and I think the Europeans have sufficiently celebrated those brave soldiers, airmen and sailors. But the people of Europe do not owe you or I, those of us born after the WW2 generations, a single thing.

As someone who has met my share of WW2 vets from all acrose the globe, I have made my thanks and gratitude known and felt to them at every opportunitity.

However, as you say to those Septics born after WW2, I do not owe you a red cent.
Cheers

BHR

[edit on 11-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Always/Sminkey,

Great posts from both of you.

- Thanks a lot.

Do either of you have any ideas as to who you think the Democrats should put up in 2008?

- I'm not so bothered about the personality so long as the long job to take 'politics' back from the current absurd over-preoccupation with big business interests alone actually and genuinely begins.
IMO a 'rebalancing' is long overdue.

It's hardly a red-blooded 'socialist revolution' that's needed but the situation at the moment is beyond a joke (and the ba*tards are doing their damnedest to 'export' their society-destroying nutter ideas).

Politics and business should be the tools and servants of 'the people' not - as I believe things are at the moment - the other way round.

Businesses and corporations legally treated as individuals yet freed from the responsibilities of citizenship are, IMO, proving to be bad for our societies and we need to establish reasonable regulation and exert some sensible controls.
It's not even like the current situation benefits most anyway, is it?

Originally posted by cargo
Yes, Europe does owe gratitude to the men who went to fight there during the World Wars, and I think the Europeans have sufficiently celebrated those brave soldiers, airmen and sailors. But the people of Europe do not owe you or I, those of us born after the WW2 generations, a single thing.

Remember I said earlier in this post that Germany owes Us?

Don't forget who protected her during the cold war. I still have frost bite on my fingers and toes from patrolling the Eastern Border of Germany, but you go ahead and ridicule my 4 years of service Cargo, it seems to be a national sport in ATS to spit on American soldiers.

I would expect a knife in the back like this from the French, but I dared hoped Germans would be different. I hoped they would look back and say:

-America helped rebuild much of our country after WW II and they stood and protected us from aggression, maybe it would not be a honerable to sell weapons to China.

I don't have proof, but Im sure the executives at Blohm + Voss and Dassault Aviation snicker at the carnage their "little Jewels" will cause to Americans in the near future. Thats ok, the lines are being drawn and the masks have come off now....and we REAL Americans can now see who is our enemy and who is our friend.

Maximu§



[edit on 023030p://111 by LA_Maximus]

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Don't forget who protected her during the cold war. I still have frost bite on my fingers and toes from patrolling the Eastern Border of Germany

I think anybody would respect that.

I would expect a knife in the back like this from the French, but I dared hoped Germans would be different.

Why are you trying to paint a whole nation in such a broad stroke? The French are rotten from the get go, while the Germans have a chance of seeing the light?

I hoped they would look back and say:
-America helped rebuild much of our country after WW II and they stood and protected us from aggression, maybe it would not be a honerable to sell weapons to China.

Such hope is extremely naive for a man of your age and life experience. Amicable feelings and gratitude only go that far even in interpersonal relationships, and they go far less in politics. It's a case of broken logic, really. By the same token the British should be really grateful to Russians, who, by putting up a fierce resistance to the advancing german armies, tied them up in a brutal war of attrition and thus bought a whole lot of time and other benefits for the Brits. So what.

I don't have proof, but Im sure the executives at Blohm + Voss and Dassault Aviation snicker at the carnage their "little Jewels" will cause to Americans in the near furure.

Now you are denigrating germans all the way. I thought it was the french who was the devils spawn. Make up your mind.

I'm pretty sure the Germans won't snicker at the thought that their weapons will be used against the US.

Thats ok, the lines are being drawn and the masks have come off now....and we REAL Americans can now see who is our enemy and who is our friend.

The sieged fortress mentality doesn's work too well these days, ask the Russians.

In conclusion, Maximus... You are oversimplifying things to a large degree.
Heck, the Japanese should withdraw from the US automobile market, right? Because we liberated them. Sheesh.

A lot of good soldiers and sailors died during the falklands killed by french exocet missiles. However we live in a 'money is our god' world. And politicians live or die by how well they are liked. Jobs/money means votes.

The geo political world structure is changing and in the near future the US should be worried about its financial dealings rather than a war with china.
With the Euro moving into a stronger position on a world scale, America could find itself in trouble if larger nations move their currency from dollar to euros. Not that im being paranoid, but i see these moves from Germany & France as chess moves in a larger game.

KNIVING IN THE BACK????!!!!
AMERIKA LIED TO US...MOORE AND MOORE..
WE PAID OURE BILL....AND STILL DO!
WE FEEL DECIEVED ..
AMERIKA HAS NEVER DONE SOMETHING FOR NOTHING....


[edit on 11-4-2005 by ressiv]

I'm sorry if any are offended by this but I must speak my mind.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Remember I said earlier in this post that Germany owes Us?

Don't forget who protected her during the cold war. I still have frost bite on my fingers and toes from patrolling the Eastern Border of Germany, but you go ahead and ridicule my 4 years of service Cargo, it seems to be a national sport in ATS to spit on American soldiers.

Germans and NATO protected her, the germans where on the borders as well.
Who is spitting on american soldiers?
Anyone who has the guts to stand with a rifle on the wall deserves recognition but respect is earned.

I would expect a knife in the back like this from the French, but I dared hoped Germans would be different. I hoped they would look back and say:

France is as good as ANY country, even mine.
Germans are just as good as well.

-America helped rebuild much of our country after WW II and they stood and protected us from aggression, maybe it would not be a honerable to sell weapons to China.

They helped protect and rebuild, that doesnt mean they are totaly in debt.
Why is it not honourable to sell weapons to another nation?

I don't have proof, but Im sure the executives at Blohm + Voss and Dassault Aviation snicker at the carnage their "little Jewels" will cause to Americans in the near future. Thats ok, the lines are being drawn and the masks have come off now....and we REAL Americans can now see who is our enemy and who is our friend.
[edit on 023030p://111 by LA_Maximus]

America's "enemy" is terrorism and fear.
Until the chinese or any other nation declares war then they have no enemy.


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

LA Max,

I think it is kinda rich for you to talk to anyone else about a country's honour, coming as you do from the currently most dishonourable country on the planet.

As for knowing who your friends are, thanks to those like you and your President, you have none.

Cheers

BHR

First: I didn't read everything... too much, seeems to be a very "explosive" topic (very funny, I know)

Second: Thanks cmdrpaddy and BillHicksRules, you speaking out of my heart. Most of the people on ATS should have realized that war is initialized by a few on the top who benefit from it, normal people just have to pay, to suffer and to die for it. And with those on top I don't mean only the politicians, everybody knows they're just puppets.

Third: Of course everything is about money, after all weaponry is one of the most profitable industry. You can blame any country, not only of the Western world: But, for example, the US is still denying a ban against landmines, which are killing innocent people EVERY DAY in every part of the world, mostly without an actual war going on. But the US are not the only one to blame.

Fourth: As a German, LA_Maximus (if you still read the posts here), I find it very interesting that you used the same term as Hitler did about the contract of Versailles, after World War I. He exactly said those Germans who officially surrendered (because they knew the war was lost) were driving a knife in the back of Germany. (Maybe you even read "Mein Kampf"?) He used it for propaganda against France and pro war and followed a long tradition of enmity between France and Germany. Today we are friends and allies, although in WWII the Germans occupied France and didn't do much good to them. What I want to say is: First thinking, then... maybe thinking again before saying something about a difficult and complex topic, and, even more important, before doing something about it. And todays political topics are difficult and complex, you can't say good or bad, you can't say black or white, it's always something between.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Always/Sminkey,

Great posts from both of you.

Do either of you have any ideas as to who you think the Democrats should put up in 2008?

Cheers

BHR

Hey Bill - Thanks. As for whom the Democrats should choose, I don't know. Haven't seen anyone I like. And these days, I begin to wonder if it matters. At the end of the day, they're all part of the same elite clubs. Have to keep an eye out...I haven't heard of anyone other than Hilary yet.

Originally posted by cargo

Yes, Europe does owe gratitude to the men who went to fight there during the World Wars, and I think the Europeans have sufficiently celebrated those brave soldiers, airmen and sailors. But the people of Europe do not owe you or I, those of us born after the WW2 generations, a single thing.

Hey Cargo - I think you missed my point. What I tried to get across is even though we all came to the aid of Europe, they shouldn't be obligated to go to an illegal, immoral war based on lies just because they owe something to someone.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Don't forget who protected her during the cold war. I still have frost bite on my fingers and toes from patrolling the Eastern Border of Germany, but you go ahead and ridicule my 4 years of service Cargo, it seems to be a national sport in ATS to spit on American soldiers.

Bit melodramatic don't you think Maximus? I'm still unsure of what you aim to achieve by all this high horseyness. I always get suspicious of military personnel who get on the internet and start demanding respect for this or that. I would have thought the average person had enough responsibility and praise for their current societal contributions in life without having to get on the net and beat a drum about some job they performed decades ago.

And by stating that I "ridicule" your service implies that I even care at all. I'm not American, you don't serve me. Let us at least make that absolutely clear.

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning

Originally posted by cargo

Yes, Europe does owe gratitude to the men who went to fight there during the World Wars, and I think the Europeans have sufficiently celebrated those brave soldiers, airmen and sailors. But the people of Europe do not owe you or I, those of us born after the WW2 generations, a single thing.

Hey Cargo - I think you missed my point. What I tried to get across is even though we all came to the aid of Europe, they shouldn't be obligated to go to an illegal, immoral war based on lies just because they owe something to someone.

I understand your point, Always learning. I wasn't really directing my post to you. I just used your comment and just followed on from it. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I agree with you.

Originally posted by cargo
I understand your point, Always learning. I wasn't really directing my post to you. I just used your comment and just followed on from it. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I agree with you.

Cool Glad we're on the same page.

Cargo/AlwaysLearning,

It is nice to see you two have made up.

Well done

Cheers

BHR