Thank You Germany & France...for the knife in the back!

Originally posted by devilwasp
The same arguement can be said for tradeing with china though.....with boeing sales does that mean the US is supporting the "comunist" party?...cough again cough

Actually I agree 100%

I DONT think we should be trading with them. I have posted on this before that I think that the US should, by economic "incentive", force companies to use another country - perhaps India - for cheap labor.

However, it seems that we are not in the best position in this case, so it would have to be a gradual switch.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Kriz_4
Actually I was incorrect, I was looking at naval casualties, apologies.

As for the "snickering", it was at you thinking it was millions, not the death of people.

I was "snickering" at you.

Snickering at me for being closer to the actual figure then you?

I am laughing at you

Way to make yourself look....well...

You said millions which implies more than one million. AT the minimum 2, yes?

That means I was roughly 500,000 out and you? At least 1,400,000. Not good at maths huh?

Now I really am laughing at you

Forget to attend your maths and history lessons?

Sorry for going off topic people, I will refrain from posting on this thread again and wait for a mod warning

Originally posted by devilwasp
Mad man, you came and joined in not just to save us..

I agree. We had our own reasons. However, that does not take away from the fact that we DID save you asses.

Also operation sea lion would have failed, we already knew the plan and had a plan in place to counter it.

And then what? Wait for the next attack?

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I agree. We had our own reasons. However, that does not take away from the fact that we DID save you asses.

Hardly, the kriegs marine was still tackling the RN, the luftwaffe was well not happy with the RAF after the battle of britain and the germany army got to sit and glare at us for days from 3 miles away.

And then what? Wait for the next attack?

It would take weeks ,probably months to mount another one, he was far more concerned with russia than "that little contemptable army"

Originally posted by Kriz_4


Way to make yourself look....well...

HINT: If you actually read my posts, you will see I changed my figure from Millions long ago.

Reading is a wonderfull thing my friend, try it some time before you jump in a conversation on a message board.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Hardly, the kriegs marine was still tackling the RN, the luftwaffe was well not happy with the RAF after the battle of britain and the germany army got to sit and glare at us for days from 3 miles away.

And whos merchant marine suplied you? Do you honestly believe without US backing you would have out lasted Germany?

It would take weeks ,probably months to mount another one, he was far more concerned with russia than "that little contemptable army"

And if he beat Russia? Would GB take on a unified Nazi Europe and Russia by themselves

Originally posted by American Mad Man
And whos merchant marine suplied you?

The merchant navy....unless you forget thats what thier for?

Do you honestly believe without US backing you would have out lasted Germany?

We bought everything from you, nothing was "given" we could have bought stuff of worse quality but cheaper from anywhere else.

And if he beat Russia? Would GB take on a unified Nazi Europe and Russia by themselves

He would have a long and hard road to fight against russia, by the time he was done conquering it china would then start a war with him, we would be rebuilding but still no where near as big a "theat" as china.

Originally posted by devilwasp

We bought everything from you, nothing was "given" we could have bought stuff of worse quality but cheaper from anywhere else.

It was actually LOANED to you. Had you lost we would have been # out of luck.

He would have a long and hard road to fight against russia, by the time he was done conquering it china would then start a war with him, we would be rebuilding but still no where near as big a "theat" as china.

China was under Japans control remember...No way he leaves your little island as a future staging area when he can just divert his attention over to you after Russia.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
It was actually LOANED to you. Had you lost we would have been # out of luck.

Yes loaned , the purpose of a loan is that you will pay back the stuff when your able to.

China was under Japans control remember

Not all of china, you where involved in a war with japan on the other side of the world from us, so this would have worried him that haveing 2 strong armied near his "new" border therefore focussing attention there.

...No way he leaves your little island as a future staging area when he can just divert his attention over to you after Russia.

He would and did, only the luftwafee did was fly bombing raids.

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Oduim,
Have you not been listening for the whole of this thread?

If you fail to kiss LA_Max's ass then you are a traitor and a coward.

Cheers

BHR

Cmon now, that comment below the belt. Your a smart guy, you can do better than that.

I do consider France and Germany to be traitors and cowards. They Hate America with a passion, but not enough to fight us openly.....so they want to arm our enemies and cut deals with them to undermine us.

Is this what our boys fought for in WW II? Did they fight to free countries that would turn around within (1) generation and start arming our adversaries?

Secretary of Sate Rice warned them not to do this last month.....SHE TOLD THEM AMERICA DEFENDS THE PACIFIC...NOT THE EU. Do you think she was saying this for fun?? SoS Rice see's the writing on the wall, China is arming up and not for defence, but for OFFENCE.



Maximu§

Originally posted by devilwasp

Yes loaned , the purpose of a loan is that you will pay back the stuff when your able to.

So I guess that Germany would pay us back for you had you lost? Come on man, the US took a big gamble backing you. Just admit it - it's not shamefull, thats what allies are for.

And this is my point - we backed you guys when the stakes were much higher and there was much more risk for us. Why then go sell China weapons if they may put our military at risk?

Europe should back the US like the US has backed Europe for decades.

Not all of china, you where involved in a war with japan on the other side of the world from us, so this would have worried him that haveing 2 strong armied near his "new" border therefore focussing attention there.

You seem to forget, we provoked Japan to attack us (though a conflict might have been inevitable) so that we could get involved. We just as easilly could have done what the UK and France did - stay out of it at all costs.

If this happened, and the US stuck to it's isolationists roots, Japan owns China, you get no help, and Hitler rumbles over you.

He would and did, only the luftwafee did was fly bombing raids.

As I remember he was still fighting Russia. The US suplied them too if I remember correctly...

Then LA i consider you unhonrable.
I hold the german and french people in high regard.
The germans make the best guns in the world and are good fighters , there is no question about this, the french can build good vehicles and are good fighters.
Also the pacific is several thousand miles away from europe, this does not bother us nor will affect us.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
So I guess that Germany would pay us back for you had you lost? Come on man, the US took a big gamble backing you. Just admit it - it's not shamefull, thats what allies are for.

Not exsactly a "big gamble" , the germans would install a pupet government and probably would pay back in efforts to stop any kind of agression from you, there was little chance we would lose after battle of britain.
[qutoe]
And this is my point - we backed you guys when the stakes were much higher and there was much more risk for us. Why then go sell China weapons if they may put our military at risk?

We have stood with you on occasions much higher stakes than that, remember the cold war?
Also why does no one else see the advantage of controlling what the chinese buy?

Europe should back the US like the US has backed Europe for decades.

Why?
Becuase some of our fathers and grand fathers done a deal with you?

You seem to forget, we provoked Japan to attack us (though a conflict might have been inevitable) so that we could get involved. We just as easilly could have done what the UK and France did - stay out of it at all costs.

.....You provoked japan to attack pearl harbor?
WTF that plan kinda back fired didnt it.

If this happened, and the US stuck to it's isolationists roots, Japan owns China, you get no help, and Hitler rumbles over you.

Hitler would not have "rumbled over us" unless he magically managed to cross the channel by suprise and get several divisions over.
Add to the fact he would have come and got you next....

As I remember he was still fighting Russia. The US suplied them too if I remember correctly...

The US and the UK supplied them, using british ships.
And yes he was still fighting russia, and if you handt come into the war would still be for several years.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus

Secretary of Sate Rice warned them not to do this last month.....SHE TOLD THEM AMERICA DEFENDS THE PACIFIC...NOT THE EU. Do you think she was saying this for fun?? SoS Rice see's the writing on the wall, China is arming up and not for defence, but for OFFENCE.

Exactly!

This is the problem. Everyone acts like they are arming up to defend themselves from the US. Has anyone really considered why the US is there in the first place?

Taiwan - China says they will take Taiwan by force if they declare independence

South Korea - North Koreas nut job dictator Kim, who gets all of his stuff from China

Japan - Left over from WWII (again, saving CHINA!!!), China considers Japan mortal enemies. NK has fired missles over Japans mainland.

Then look at the weapons they are building up with.

NAVY: Landing craft and Submarines. Both clearly OFFENSIVE weapons systems designed to take Taiwan. They need landing craft to ferry their massive army over and they need subs to take on the USN.

AirForce: It was crap before, but now thanks to our supposed EU allies they may get modern avionics to put in their Russian derived aircraft. They clearly need this to take on US air power. SO WHY IS EUROPE HELPING THEM?!!!

Umm dude about europe giveing china avionics look for boeing.....we havent even shown WHAT we are selling hell for all you know it could just be outdated torps or even just a rifle. We're not going to sell them the typhoon.....

Originally posted by devilwasp
Then LA i consider you unhonrable.
I hold the german and french people in high regard.
The germans make the best guns in the world and are good fighters , there is no question about this, the french can build good vehicles and are good fighters.
Also the pacific is several thousand miles away from europe, this does not bother us nor will affect us.

DEAR GOD!!!!!

Have you lost all sense of right and wrong? Good and Bad? Yes, the Germans do make good weapons, which is EXACTLY why I don't want them sold to CHINA.

As far as the French being good fighters...if you spent more time listening to your history teacher and less time goofing off, you will find the last time the French fought well was under Napoleon.

Maximu§

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
DEAR GOD!!!!!

I am not god, please dont adress posts to me entitling me as "god"....I am not a chief petty officer....yet...

Have you lost all sense of right and wrong? Good and Bad? Yes, the Germans do make good weapons, which is EXACTLY why I don't want them sold to CHINA.

You missed out the part that they are good fighters and honourable people, they have fought beside us many a time.

As far as the French being good fighters...if you spent more time listening to your history teacher and less time goofing off, you will find the last time the French fought well was under Napoleon.

The french have fought well alongside and against us, any man who calls another man a coward is most likely a coward himself.
Did you know how well they fought in WW1? They defended verdun with more than tanks and bullets, they defended it with thier hearts and minds and souls....the town never fell...

Originally posted by devilwasp

Not exsactly a "big gamble" , the germans would install a pupet government and probably would pay back in efforts to stop any kind of agression from you, there was little chance we would lose after battle of britain.

"Not exactly a big gamble?????"

Please, we gave you billions of dollars worth of stuff for free and didn't know if we would get paid back. How is that NOT a big risk?


[qutoe]

We have stood with you on occasions much higher stakes than that, remember the cold war?
Also why does no one else see the advantage of controlling what the chinese buy?

I am sorry, but if anyone was standing by the other one, it was the US standing by Europe. Russia was not going to invade the US - their tanks were lined up facing western Europe.

I don't see the advantage of controlling what China buys because they can't get anything that good from anywhere else! What is so hard to understand about that?

You guys have better electronic stuff then Russia. If it was equal they would get the cheaper stuff from Russia!

That is akin to giving a teen heroin so he won't smoke some weed because at least you know how much he will do. It makes no sense!

Why?
Becuase some of our fathers and grand fathers done a deal with you?

Maybe because we are SUPPOSED to be allies! That is the point! If you aren't, make your intentions known! Thats why the US gets pissed at Europe, because you take when it's good for you, and when it comes time to prove your as loyal to us as we are to you, we hear "why, because some of our grandfathers done a deal with you?"

Absolutely pathetic. Where is your sense of loyalty? What is the problem with having a TWO way relationship where we look out for each other?

If this is the attitude of most of Europe, let us Yanks know. At least that way we can cut you out of all our programs like the F-35 because you will sell us out. At least this way we can stop sharing vital secrets with you. At least this way when we are attacked it won't be with aid from our supposed ally.

.....You provoked japan to attack pearl harbor?
WTF that plan kinda back fired didnt it.

Yes we did. We had an embargo (if my memory serves me) on them that they could not withstand - basically we denied them oil (my, the more things change, the more they stay the same).

Obviously they couldn't just dry up, so we forced them to attack us.

And no - it didn't backfire. It had the exact effect wanted. We got attacked, but didn't have any of our most important ships sunk. Not a single aircraft carrier was in harbor when they attacked. They were on patrol

At this point in the war, USN strategy was ahead of the rest of the world - we valued carriers as the main capitol ships over battleships.

Hitler would not have "rumbled over us" unless he magically managed to cross the channel by suprise and get several divisions over.
Add to the fact he would have come and got you next....

Rumble over you he would. He had a VASTLY superior military. You take away Russia taking the brunt of his effort and all US backing - your a goner, sorry buddy.

The US and the UK supplied them, using british ships.
And yes he was still fighting russia, and if you handt come into the war would still be for several years.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Umm dude about europe giveing china avionics look for boeing.....we havent even shown WHAT we are selling hell for all you know it could just be outdated torps or even just a rifle. We're not going to sell them the typhoon.....

As I have said seemingly thousands of times, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CIVIL AND MILITARY AVIONICS.

That is what China is after - electronic equipment for their airpower.

Even if you are just selling them some torps or rifles, if it helps them at all, it HURTS US.

So would you hurt your friend to line your pockets? YES OR NO?