Iran is indeed not Iraq - And arrogance has always led to the fall of the greatest empires...

Originally posted by xmotex

Also remember that US forces did not allow any males over 15 to leave the city before the assault, only women and small children. I doubt all those men and teenage boys were insurgents. I wonder how many of those civilians died by American arms?

The people of Fallujah had ample time to make their choices when it came to harboring insurgents within their city. It wasn't like we launched a sneak attack on an unsuspecting city. We even let a former Saddam General try to maintain order there the first time when we contempleted action there, with unsatisfactory results. To be frank Fallujah made its own bed and had to sleep in it. That we refused to let military age males out of the city after giving ample warnings to them was not unreasonable in the face of the battle that was to happen. We had insurgents trapped and were not about to let them slip away. In fact our ample warnings probably let a good amount of them vanish, leaving only hardcore deadenders in the city. As for those military males in Fallujah who were not insurgents:

"Tell them 'Stay in your houses, stay away from windows and stay off the roof and you'll live through Fallujah,'" Formica, of the 1st Cavalry Division's 2nd Brigade, told his battalion commanders in a radio conference call Wednesday night.

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

"Tell them 'Stay in your houses, stay away from windows and stay off the roof and you'll live through Fallujah,'" Formica, of the 1st Cavalry Division's 2nd Brigade, told his battalion commanders in a radio conference call Wednesday night.

Considering even the US admits that one third of the houses were rendered uninhabitable, and 5-10% destroyed, I'd say it's a safe bet a lot of noncombatants got wasted that did exactly as he said.

However much we try to sanitize what we did in Fallujah, it's hard not to see that this was a reprisal operation against a localized populace considered uncooperative. At least that appears to be the effect, even if it was not the publicly proclaimed intention.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
That's good. It is only logical

Logical when applied to the laws of physics, sorry but life in general is not as predictable as gravity.

Take your pick of any nation on the earth, USA, Israel for example, Most of the "third world". Europe had it's reckonning day just last century. The romans had theirs, etc, etc. Is it really nec to give examples?

Except for Rome, none of those examples you provided represents a nation that has fallen. All still exist.

First I must be young, now I must not have kids. What do either have to do with what I am saying?

They have nothing to do with what you are saying, but how you are saying it. When reading your earlier post, I interpreted you as being happy when you stated the U.S. will get what's coming to it, as you believe it will. If you had children here, you probably wouldn't let the thought of your position being validated by the fall of our nation bring you joy, if you do have children, it seems selfish to put personal vindication before your family.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say you care about what your "corrupt government"does then in the next breath say well it's nature and survival of the fittest, we are the fittest.

There you go again with your cut and dry approach. I believe sometimes in life we are faced with choices that are not so easy. I absolutely can have it both ways. I disagree with a great many things our government does. I also disagree with a great many things many other governments do. How can you say you agree that we are not the only nation that has corrupt policies, but somehow feel that we above all others deserve to fall? Do you hate your life here that much? Mine's not that bad, I'm sure it could be alot worse. And, as a citizen, I can take every possible opportunity to make it known I am not happy with many actions our government has taken, including the war in Iraq. But as a citizen, I also hope for my people to continue to prosper and do not want to see my people fall. In the future I hope people of the world can come together and bring down all corrupt governments, maybe as we evolve we may be able to cooperate as a species on that level. But right now, like I said, nature's laws have not changed, it's survival of the fittest.

If we are going to play by those rules then we, including you and I as American citizens must accept the inevitable, which naturally is our fall.

Sure we must accept it, but not happily welcome it, which is what you come across as doing. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so.

Your kids are going to suffer much worse because we have allowed America to continue on the path it is on.

Well, if it's inevitable I say we have no choice but to stay on top as long as possible. It's all we can do if we are already doomed.

Not to be biblical but the sins of the father will be visited upon the third and even fourth generation.

I wouldn't know, I'm not religious.



[edit on 27-3-2005 by 27jd]

Of course it is inevitable!!! Nothing last forever! If you dont't realize that then your glasses are a bit more rosey colored than I thought.

You are correct in your final assumption that I actually DO welcome the fall of America.(hey one out of three aint bad huh). I know it seems a bit cold or whatever but I think this is a direct result from taking HISTORY into account. As we all know most Americans have a warped sense of history, so whenever something is related to them in this fashion they are usually taken back a bit.


You arrogantly claim that you can have it both ways, and point to my "cut and dry" demeanor to mock it, when it is this very desire to have it all, that has led to America's downfall.

Hey the founding fathers THOUGHT they had it all when they said all men were created equal yet still owned slaves, right? These are the "grey areas" that americans love soo much

Rome didn't fall in one day my friend, take a look around........America is already falling. Funny thing is we won't even be remembered anywhere near how we expect.

I wish I was allowed to take you outside the space time continuum for a moment and show you the days when America will be portrayed as a nation crueler than Romer herself (or Nazi Germany for that matter).........but even then would you bear to face the truth?

You ask me if my life here is soo bad, and I say no! But I have lived in NUMEROUS other countries and preferered them to the good ole USA, sorry.

I also never claimed that America is the worlds only corrupt government.
You make up arguments against what I say with assumptions.

Arrogance (and fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts actually) have always led to this hence the title. Study history and you will find what I am saying to be true.

[edited to address point]

[edit on 27-3-2005 by 1wintermute1]

The U.S. is not to fall anytime soon, our military is as strong as ever our economy is growing at 4% annually more than the Europeans. If anyone is going to fall its will be Europe not us.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The U.S. is not to fall anytime soon, our military is as strong as ever our economy is growing at 4% annually more than the Europeans. If anyone is going to fall its will be Europe not us.

Europe will not fall, we are good recovers and will not fall.

I'd welcome the fall of the American Empire, but I'd hate to see the fall of the American republic. Sadly the republic is all but extinct, replaced by a national security state that still talks about "freedom" and "liberty" as if they were anything more than vestigial, ceremonial words, trotted out for propaganda purposes when we need to bomb someone to appropriate their resources.

Someday the world will get sick of being dominated by the US, and the current American Empire will fall, it's only a matter of how long it will take and how violent it's death throes will be. One nation of three hundred million cannot dominate a planet of six billion indefinitely.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1

You ask me if my life here is soo bad, and I say no! But I have lived in NUMEROUS other countries and preferered them to the good ole USA, sorry.

Well if you prefer them and its obvious you do, get the hell out of mine.

All your whining and crying and America bashing is a common rhetoric for insecure uneducated people with frequent bouts of depression. You need help.

I noticed and was ashamed of one of your posts in this thread that all of a sudden in this day and age everybody knows someone either involved with the war in Iraq or effected by 9/11. Mabe if you got out from behind your keyboard once in a while and took an interest in knowing some of the people around you who inhale the same oxygen as you, you would realize that there are millions of people who are directly effected.

It is your warped sense of reality that only continues to warp the mind of less intelligent individuals who are constantly believing what they hear from ignorant others only because of their own thirst for huge scale confrontation.

The thirst for this massive confrontation comes from the inept ability to confront others on a more personal level, a.k.a. social anxiety or just antisocialism.

You live in this country because you want to and not because you are forced to remain here. If you have any reason at all for living here rather then somewhere else, then that in itself is a self proclomation of the reality that this country is better. You can continue to lie to yourself and rope in the less of will to your beliefs but you are only hurting yourself by denying your brain of the knowledge or truths and possibly the medication that could be used to restore proper function and resist the depression that so incurs.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
Of course it is inevitable!!! Nothing last forever! If you dont't realize that then your glasses are a bit more rosey colored than I thought.

When did I indicate I might not realize that? I'm quite aware the U.S. won't be on top forever. And while I don't necessarily agree it's fall will be in a violent manner, nothing is impossible.

You are correct in your final assumption that I actually DO welcome the fall of America.

That's unfortunate. I just hope if the $hit ever does hit the fan, nobody makes the mistake of counting on you as a friend and fellow American.

(hey one out of three aint bad huh).

Not if you're batting in a baseball game.

I know it seems a bit cold or whatever but I think this is a direct result from taking HISTORY into account. As we all know most Americans have a warped sense of history, so whenever something is related to them in this fashion they are usually taken back a bit.

I try not to let history run my future, history is just somebody's side of the story, unless you were there, you don't know $hit. There's always two sides, right Mr. Cut and Dry? I look to the middle for the truth. You can continue to wallow in the past, I choose to look to the future when the human race may one day better itself.

You arrogantly claim that you can have it both ways, and point to my "cut and dry" demeanor to mock it, when it is this very desire to have it all, that has led to America's downfall.

What desire have I shown to "have it all"? And I think you're throwing the word arrogant around a bit indiscriminately. I don't believe I displayed any arrogance when I stated that pretty much ALL governments are corrupt, including ours. Or when I stated ALL the people should unite against ALL corrupt governments. Please explain how I have been arrogant. I think you just resort to that stereotypical portrayal of your fellow Americans as a defense mechanism when your argument holds no water.

Hey the founding fathers THOUGHT they had it all when they said all men were created equal yet still owned slaves, right? These are the "grey areas" that americans love soo much

I really have no idea what you're trying to say here. America evolved, it saw the err in it's ways and corrected itself, slavery was abolished not by China or Russia, or whatever other nation you're hoping tries to bring us down, but from within. From the arrogant Americans who fought to do away with that "grey area".

Rome didn't fall in one day my friend, take a look around........America is already falling.

Really? I don't see it. Please elaborate as to what it is you see when you're looking around, that leads you to this conclusion.

Funny thing is we won't even be remembered anywhere near how we expect.

You sure know alot about exactly what the future holds. Oh man! You must be from the future, sent back to stop the arrogant Americans from destroying the Earth. That must be it, otherwise you would just be spouting predictions as fact.

I wish I was allowed to take you outside the space time continuum for a moment and show you the days when America will be portrayed as a nation crueler than Romer herself (or Nazi Germany for that matter).........but even then would you bear to face the truth?

Well, hopefully your superiors will grant you permission to take me outside the space time continuum soon. Just tell them it will help your mission back in time to show me, because if you do, I will have no choice but to believe you and join you in your quest.

You ask me if my life here is soo bad, and I say no! But I have lived in NUMEROUS other countries and preferered them to the good ole USA, sorry.

So you come here and bitch about it? Being as I'm not arrogant, I won't respond with the expected "you should leave" BS, in fact I feel sorry for you, having tasted the good life only to be forced somehow to live in this hellhole den of evil and arrogant demons, bent on enslaving the earth and feasting on the blood of the innocent masses of the world.

I also never claimed that America is the worlds only corrupt government.
You make up arguments against what I say with assumptions.

Then why do you think, and welcome what you believe to be the fact, that America will fall at the hands of what could only be (in order to stay in line with your cut and dry, good and evil philosophy) a righteous, selfless coalition of governments acting only on the side of goodness, and will prevail, for sure, 100%. Regardless of our tens of thousands of nuclear weapons, we will fall violently, and those righteous victors will dance on our ashes, and earth will rejoice. Maybe I'm just making assumptions again.

Arrogance (and fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts actually) have always led to this hence the title.

Have, that's the key word. There are new dynamics in play, Mutually Assured Destruction is perhaps the most significant. No army will march on our soil, and the same goes for Russia.

Study history and you will find what I am saying to be true.

See above. (Think maybe we're running that one into the ground?)




[edit on 27-3-2005 by 27jd]

So,

i was searching on Google for information related to the Iran - US conflict and i came to this. First of all, i want so say that iam very shocked about some opinions posted here, and yes, i read all the 16 pages and every post.

I dont know where to begin, maybe i have to introduce me and my sources (where i get my opinion from). Iam from a small country called Bulgaria, an american ally. My grandfather was a minister, my father worked for a russian "organization" (dont want to get more specific), and finally iam studying international relations / politics.

I have friends fighting in Iraq, shoulder on shoulder with US soldiers, and ive learned to make a difference between the information you get from a man who was really there, and the media, also i have also meet some american soldiers (KFOR) here, and they helped me to get NOT brainwashed, like the most of You, watching FOX, BBC and CNN the whole day eating chinese food and (quote) "go fishin' on a boat for 50k bucks".

Just a few things before i get to the main point:

- USA has NOT the worlds largest recources (oil, gas,gold etc), it is still Russia, funny yes, if someone wants an argument please reply, iam to tired now to do that, or simply search on non-russian and non-us related sites for that information.

- 65% of the US "soldiers" in Iraq are between 18 and 22 years old, so most of you say "america has the best trained army", so what you put them 6 months into a camp and they are good enough to kill people? No, that people are the ones who get "5 feet under" after the war. They are just homeless or uneducated people with sociological problems, who dont get an other chance than the military (because of the wonderfull economic situation in the US).

- Someone said that the US is making strategical positions for a war against Iran, youre right, i just want to put some more in it, after they "get" Iran, they close the frontline against an eventually atack against Russia or China (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan & the allies Pakistan, Ukraina etc). This is not only about the oil, its a prepare for the next years.

*quote NY Times:
The White House has in recent months expressed appreciation that Japan readily sent troops to Iraq (news - web sites). Japan recently altered its Constitution to allow its military, the world's fourth largest, to participate in "out of area" missions. In coming months, Pentagon (news - web sites) sources say, US and Japanese officials will discuss enhancing command and control centers in Japan, missile defense, and deployment of forces, including a possible further drawdown of US forces in Korea. These developments take place just months after official defense papers in Tokyo for the first time explicitly pointed to China as a "threat." The US now unambiguously supports a UN Security Council seat for Japan*


So my main point is, that thats not just about the oil. It about (like some users said) "world government" ot tell it whatever you want.

So, if i was an american, i would be proud of my country, logicly everyone does, even if they now that the government is making wrong turns, okay, i dont wanna blame the postings of american "Super-Cowboys". I understand you. But you have two options. You can be an patriot and close your eyes, or you can be someone who has an own opinion.

Iran is with nothing better than the US. Why are you guys discussing things like stoning women, death penalties etc. That has nothing to do with the topic. Also i cannot understand the guy saying that he likes to kill radical islams, their families and friends even if he doesnt get paid. I cannot understand you like a man telling me that, but as an soldier - yes. Because thats what a real soldier has to think, that is the motivation and anger a man need no fight. Does anyone 18-year old black male from Brooklyn have that? No! And THAT is the point why an american invasion in Iran CAN end with an "loose" or "draw" for the US army. Of course thats not the only reason. And yes, of couse, there are many reasons to think that the US can win - sure. But do you really think that the world, the UN would let this happen? Another war? Do you really think that the US can afford the costs another time? The US doesnt have the budget to make, or even iv they make, to WIN that war!

And please, dont forget the allies that Iran have. Sure, Russia and China cant help with manpower, but with technology and money, because they have a big interest in this area (Russia need to save their oil resources, thats why putin has closed them to 60% and stabilized the contracts with iranian companys).

Btw, Iran have a "ready to arm - manpower" 20 million people, ... its not impossible to win that, but there will be more US victims than in vietnam. Even if you get a "ratio" of 1:10.

Just one more question, i just cant understand one thing:

Who puts the US in the role of "World's Police", and even if Iran has nuclear weapons, so what? Dosnt the US have tons of NW? And my final argument, that this war is for a strategical position and for oil: The US KNOWS that north korea has NW, a small country, a samaller army, the same regime etc. ... huh? Dont know? Comon cowboy, because its all about the oil....

*i dont hate america, i drive an 68' mustang, go to McDonalds and favorite medicine after ive been drunk with JimBeam is and cold Budweiser. So dont put me (and others) into a anti-american category because we are thinking and writing it down (and loosing 2 hours of sleep) . *

Hey, you have a right to your own opinion and I respect that. I even respect more that you did not try to personally attack anyone. But you have to realize one thing. People are attacking the US patriots on this site and well, we`re swinging right back at them. So while your statement is obvious not to incite riot like behavior it is important that you know that a lot of people can get very defensive when you attack them as a whole.

There are some very ignorant people on this thread and I`m not just saying that because I disagree with them. I somewhat disagree with parts of your statement, yet do not think of you as ignorant, because your approach was more politeful and classy. So debate we will. I look foward to arguing my opinions with such as you because we don`t need to get personal.

Furthermore I`d like to state, and probably speak for a lot of the American patriots, that we also take great pride in our allies especially in times of war. There may be civilian divisions in each of our countries but together our countries` values are very similar and thus we make good friends. We take offense to those who try to put us down when we firmly believe we are following our hearts no matter how heart wrenching the decisions. But we stick up for our allies as well.

So I wanted to let you know that you may not see the best of us here because when under attack we sometimes let our emotions get the best of us. However we are for the most part very good and decent beings who look foward to a more peaceful future, yet until then we will stand up for our country when she needs us most and love her none the less.

As for your views on the US soldier, I must disagree. I know soldiers and while there may be many young men, they are very well trained and are some of the best soldiers to ever walk this planet. They are trained by those with tons of experience and take a lot of knowledge with them to the battlefield. I also dont know of anyone who only had 6 months of training. I`m not denying its truth if you can back it up, but I think on average the training is closer to a year for most branches of the military. There is boot camp, there is basic training and there is special schooling for the specialists. But I don`t want to make a big arguement out of length of training, for I believe that our military is very advanced, sufficient and effective. I do not doubt my military.

(On another note, have you seen the new 2005 shelby mustang?)

Look man, I am not trying to say America is the Satan of the world. It is just the current Rome that's all.

When I say arrogance I jsut mean your claim that you can have it both ways, which you did claim.Do I need to link your previous post, or have you changed it already?

I was born here, I pay taxes, and unfortunately people like you fail to realize that the thing that is supposed to make this country great is the ABILITY for people to have the right to EXPRESS themselves however they see fit(within the constraints of the law of course)

Why is it that "patriots"such as yourslef always are the first to degrade someone(fellow countryman or not) the second you hear something that you don't agree with?

You question whether or not I would be dependable in a time of crisis. I can say this much.......despite the fact that I do not agree with you...I would still feel the need to protect you if need be. Can you honestly say the same thing?

I do consider myself a patriot. One who is aware of what our founding fathers intended for this country. Our current practices are soo far away from what they imagined that it is sickenning though ! More and more people are coming upon this conclusion, with each passing year despite their socio, political, racial differences, and this I think is heathy.

We are loosing more and more of our rights as time goes on, and I for one would rather see the end of it....and hope that something akin to what our forefathers imagined will replace it. In the hopes that my kids will see something better.

As for my reference to the space time continuum, it was my pathetic attempt at humour to try and lighten the situation, that's all. It did have a point though.....even if you were shewn these things which I CLAIM to be true, would you accept them even then? You say you would join me.......I doubt that though.......

Look, I also never said that I thought America would fall by the sword. It is looking more and more likely though. I honestly think though that we will fall more so due to problems within, such as the one you and I are discussing.

In reguards to the similarities between our current civilization, and that of others that have fallen , give me time and I will attempt to find links for you. Mind you the similarities I speak of, I have only come across in my studies of latin, and the roman empire, so I know not whether these things are available in English. I will try to find some in english for you though.

As for your new dynamics that you mention....I think mutually assured destruction is a joke. Yes all nations involved will perish, that however, will not stop the human race. At the risk of sounding redundant....the thought that we as humans can destroy that which we did not create...is arrogant.
[edited due to ineptitude]
[edited 2nd time due to redundancy]
[edit on 28-3-2005 by 1wintermute1]

[edit on 28-3-2005 by 1wintermute1]

After reading the posts contained in this thread, I am so amazed how many people let others press their buttons. Personally, I think the creator of this thread wrote the thing to get a rise out of some people and maybe even gather some information on the way. If not for information, then it would be an op just to inflame people who otherwise wouldn't be flinging mud at each other. Turning liberal minds into militant minds is easily done when people think that the country they idolize wishes them harm.

I will not give any ammunition to the Iranian Intelligence Officer's propaganda machine. The question posed is silly and nonsense. Clearly apples and oranges. We have nothing against the people of Iran. We only wish that their government choose another way to make money than nuclear arms. End of story. I can assure you, however, that if indeed their government chooses to pursue this issue, it will not only impact the United States, but all of the Middle East and Europe as well.

This is not an issue of the U.S. vs. Islamic Republic of Iran (Jomhuri-ye Eslami-ye Iran), this is a world issue. Our world exists because of a delicate balance. Even more so in this age of technology. The world cannot allow even one nuclear weapon to fall into the hands of people who would unleash its horrible power at the whim of a single person. In this new century, the world could easily be destroyed by one motivated individual. Anyone who doesn't see this is a fool.

Why should the US and the UK be the police force of the world? Maybe we are the only ones who have the desire or ability to do so. Germany isn't interested. France is not interested. Russia isn't interested. China isn't interested because they stand to make a lot of money offsetting the balance in any way they can.

I found it very interesting that the Intel Officer mentioned that they had help from China. Am I correct in assuming that Russia is selling them the nuclear technology? Selling? Hmmm. There must be money involved.

I wonder what kind of technology that China has sold to their country. Financial interests. Hmmm. It would seem to me that the US is not the only capitalist country in the world that does things to assist the economy. I would imagine that our hands are not completely clean, but no person or country can say that their hands are any cleaner. Such is civilization.

Let Siroos play his games. He doesn't seek truth. He seeks agitation and posturing. Perhaps he is jealous. I have always wondered how people could hate a country and culture they themselves emulate. See the people in the streets protesting the great satan (United States) while wearing Tommy Hilfager t-shirts, Levi jeans, and listening to western music? It would be funny of it wasn't true.

I completely agree with djohnsto77. "Don't Feed The Trolls"

Originally posted by csulli456
You live in this country because you want to and not because you are forced to remain here. If you have any reason at all for living here rather then somewhere else, then that in itself is a self proclomation of the reality that this country is better. You can continue to lie to yourself and rope in the less of will to your beliefs but you are only hurting yourself by denying your brain of the knowledge or truths and possibly the medication that could be used to restore proper function and resist the depression that so incurs.

Out of mine? LMFAO.......

Whining and crying? I have done neither. I am however a responsible man who accepts the consequences of his actions, which it appears, america is not willing to do...or even acknowledge.

AS previously stated I have lived in numerous countries, So I think I can objectively state whether or not I prefer to reside in this country.

The only thing that makes America special, is the fact that it is truly the easiest place to make money, or become rich. We enjoy financial freedoms that others do not, and that is the only difference. Whether you like it or not the only thing that makes this place tolelrable is the ability to procure resourses.

I am smart enough to know where my best interest lie, even if I do not agree with the host. And whether or not I like it YES my financial interest depend on me staying in this country a little while longer.

Then I will leave again, to spend my money in another country, so the USA does not see a cent more than is required(taxes). Also, so my children will not be raised to believe the ignorance that has replaced education here in this country. I truly fear the day that my child grows up to sound like you.

Hell most americans still think columbus discovered a land that already had people in it, most also think that we were responsible for winning WWII, and the most recent farce is the belief that Iraq had something to do with 9-11.

Sad fact of the matter is...most Americans are ignorant of history, and current events. Which is why our educational system has been one of the worst amongst industrialized western nations for quite some time now.

[edited due to ineptitude]

[edit on 28-3-2005 by 1wintermute1]

*Originally posted by csulli456*
---------------------------------------


Your the one of the few posters here that i really respect, because of the way you discuss with other people, even if you're directly attacked.

I'am sure that You, and maybe 99% of all americans are looking forward to an peacefull future, but that is not the point. The point is "Your" regime, your politics, there are several points...

- The lies all around the war in Iraq & Afghanistan (i think you understand what lies iam talking about), false arguments etc.

- The "history of bush's empire", shown in F911 by michael moore, and thounsands articles all over the world (oil), and yes even if just 30% of the movie is based on real facts, its enough for me to make my opinion.

- The arrogant "We do what we wanna do, no matter what you think" style, the US gov is handling debattes in the UN etc. (sure, if Bulgaria or any other country had the same position like the US they would do the same)

- The way the american media is being censored by the government (photo filtering, no dead US soldiers, etc) - its the same like in China and yes, like in pre-Afghanistan and pre-Iraq. Even Reuters isnt an independent source anymore, i know a bulgarian photographer, photographing for Reuters in Iraq and in the past wars, being with US soldiers on the frontline - he told me many things you cant read in your, and even we cant in our newspaper. (write me u2u for some more of that, dont want go get it so public)

...think that America (the regime) is the one and only threat here (dont take that personally)

About your answer about the US soldiers: I cant back it up by facts, of course the american soldiers are (if not the best) one of the best soldiers in the world. I based my argument on my discussions with US soldiers, people who fight with them, and one photographer who was in Iraq the whole period. Some of them telled me there were trained just for 4-5 months. Maybe thats enough, i dont know, but we both know that an well trained 30 year old soldier with experience is better even than an 20 year old special forces guy - war is simple, noone can hide himself forever in (better) tanks, (better) planes etc., there is a point where is real battle - the real threat you (we) have to worry about. This opinion is based on facts that are not fully proved, but my point was that even if the US military is much better than Iran's army, there will be much more COW than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Ksovo together.

see this:

The Coming War in the Gulf: A Weapons Analysis of the Iran-Russia-US strategic triangle

and this

Department of Defense is deliberately not reporting a significant number of the dead in Iraq


fact or fiction? @:



PS: Yes ive seen it, wanted to buy it, but in Bulgaria we pay large taxes for large motors, and to import an 2005 V8 would cost me 52k $ (23.000 just taxes) ... and it makes no sense For that money you can buy an (stolen of course) 2004 MB S-Class here






[edit on 28-3-2005 by bulgarian]

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
Look man, I am not trying to say America is the Satan of the world. It is just the current Rome that's all.

I agree. And I'm just saying you can't always predict the future by looking at the past, it's a good measure, but not a guarantee of anything, by any means.

When I say arrogance I jsut mean your claim that you can have it both ways, which you did claim.Do I need to link your previous post, or have you changed it already?

No, but please provide a link to whichever post I stated I did not say I could have it both ways. I did claim that and wasn't disputing that. I can dislike my government but still wish to see my people prosper. I don't see how that's arrogant. I hope, like with slavery, America corrects itself in regards to our government.

I was born here, I pay taxes, and unfortunately people like you fail to realize that the thing that is supposed to make this country great is the ABILITY for people to have the right to EXPRESS themselves however they see fit(within the constraints of the law of course)

How do "people like me" fail to realize that? The ONLY issue I take with what you have said is that you welcome our collapse. That means you welcome harm to fall on my family, my people, and myself (not to mention yourself). If somebody wishes me ill because of things that are out of my control, it is just as much my right to express my opposition just the same as you have the right to express yourself however you see fit. Is that not correct? Do I not enjoy the same rights as you?

Why is it that "patriots"such as yourslef always are the first to degrade someone(fellow countryman or not) the second you hear something that you don't agree with?

Why is it that anytime somebody disagrees with the hate everything or hate nothing about America position, they are a "patriot"? I am far from a "patriot", and probably fall more in line with your beliefs about our government than you will obviously accept. However I do love my country, not my government. So if that makes me a "patriot" than I'll be that. And how did I degrade you?

You question whether or not I would be dependable in a time of crisis. I can say this much.......despite the fact that I do not agree with you...I would still feel the need to protect you if need be. Can you honestly say the same thing?

Well, if true, that's good to know. And yes, I can very honestly say the same thing.

I do consider myself a patriot. One who is aware of what our founding fathers intended for this country. Our current practices are soo far away from what they imagined that it is sickenning though ! More and more people are coming upon this conclusion, with each passing year despite their socio, political, racial differences, and this I think is heathy.

I agree with you on that. But what have you done more than me to change it? All we can do for now is voice our opposition, and I have done my share.

We are loosing more and more of our rights as time goes on, and I for one would rather see the end of it....and hope that something akin to what our forefathers imagined will replace it. In the hopes that my kids will see something better.

I also agree with you here, so what's your suggestion to see the end? Watch it all burn down? Not quite what I had hoped would replace it.

As for my reference to the space time continuum, it was my pathetic attempt at humour to try and lighten the situation, that's all. It did have a point though.....even if you were shewn these things which I CLAIM to be true, would you accept them even then? You say you would join me.......I doubt that though.......

I know, that's why I attempted my own humor to keep the pace, and I am already on your side, except for the welcoming our destruction part.

In reguards to the similarities between our current civilization, and that of others that have fallen , give me time and I will attempt to find links for you. Mind you the similarities I speak of, I have only come across in my studies of latin, and the roman empire, so I know not whether these things are available in English. I will try to find some in english for you though.

Don't try too hard. Again, I believe history will only repeat itself if we let it, nothing is set in stone yet.

As for your new dynamics that you mention....I think mutually assured destruction is a joke. Yes all nations involved will perish, that however, will not stop the human race. At the risk of sounding redundant....the thought that we as humans can destroy that which we did not create...is arrogant.

Right. Keith Richards can form a new hybrid human race with the cockroaches.

Without debating at this current moment bulgarian, I see that you have seen moore`s Farenheit 9/11. I wanted to know if you have ever seen or heard of Farenhype 9/11. Let me know, and then we will do some good old debating.

BTW Thanks for the compliment.

Originally posted by csulli456
Without debating at this current moment bulgarian, I see that you have seen moore`s Farenheit 9/11. I wanted to know if you have ever seen or heard of Farenhype 9/11. Let me know, and then we will do some good old debating.

sure thats why i wrote

...yes even if just 30% of the movie is based on real facts...

But i dont wrote just about FH911 in my last post. Any comments to the links, if you have read them?

[edit on 28-3-2005 by bulgarian]

I don`t think you understood my question. I know you have seen Farenheit 9/11 but have you seen Farenhype 9/11? There are two movies with similar names. And yes I will debate some of the other stuff in your post.