Iran is indeed not Iraq - And arrogance has always led to the fall of the greatest empires...

Originally posted by djohnsto77
If Iran steps a bit out of line and uses a nuclear weapon or threatens to use one, all this "we care about civilians" BS will fly out the window and you'll get some of these flying at you with your name on them Siroos:



Personally, I'd like to see it happen. It'd make a few nights of great television news.

This one and WesPoint's post is the most scariest posts I;we seen in this thread. This rockets are what all intelligent and civilised people of the world is afraid of.

You launch, and we all die.

Calma boys.

Originally posted by 27jd
I guess we were the first to steal land, huh? And by indigenous peoples you mean the ones that grew here naturally from the ground like trees, or the ones that walked here from Asia? I guess the "I saw it first" rule has been in effect since the dawn of time? Tell that to all the other creatures that live on earth, the ones that have to steal from those weaker from time to time in order to survive. It's funny how some people think humans, the divine monkeys that we are, are above the laws of nature and should be held to a higher standard than our fellow creatures. It's a good thing you weren't alive back in the times when humans had to steal to survive, you wouldn't have lasted very long. But then again you wouldn't be so spoiled that you would have had the opportunity to sit around and feel sorry for people who were wronged hundreds of years ago.

Of course not but just like all nations that have risen to steal land, they will also fall and loose it.

And we also did not corner either one of those markets, are you saying America invented slave labor and arms trading?

No but just like all nations that rose by it, we shall also fall because of it.

Well then, there should be alot of reaping going on around the world.

There is. Look around you can see the nations that reap what they sow.

You almost seem excited about that, you must be very young.

I am 30. Is that young?

Ignorant as in believing that other than the evil, murderous country in which you safely and snuggly reside, the rest of the world is "sugar and spice and everything nice"?

Things are bad the world over, but one doesn't point out others flaws as a sign of ones strength. Strength must stand on it accomplishments alone, not on the failure of others.

*golf clap*

Don't quite catch that one

[EDITED DUE TO INEPTITUDE]

[edit on 25-3-2005 by 1wintermute1]

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
Of course not but just like all nations that have risen to steal land, they will also fall and loose it.

We'll have to see I guess. Nothing's impossible.

No but just like all nations that rose by it, we shall also fall because of it.

I'm seeing a pattern with you, no room for circumstances, very cut and dry. You rise you fall. What goes up must come down. I think we get it.

There is. Look around you can see the nations that reap what they sow.

Example?

I am 30. Is that young?

Nope, you're two years older than myself. Maybe you just don't have a family or something, I have a son and I don't want to see him die because of something our corrupt government brings on us. I certainly wouldn't be excited about it.

Things are bad the world over, but one doesn't point out others flaws as a sign of ones strength. Strength must stand on it accomplishments alone, not on the failure of others.

But nature is nature, even applied to humans, especially applied to humans. It's survival of the fittest, at this moment, we're the fittest. It won't always be that way, such is nature, but we will as long as we can.

Don't quite catch that one

Surely you saw the movie Men at Work with Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen. Remember when the cop gave that big speech and they gave him the golf clap? Oh well.






Edited quotes

[edit on 3-25-2005 by ProudAmerican]

Originally posted by Siroos
[
Are you kidding me? How should I supply "proof" to you about the capability of the Iranian air defenses? There is no way of proving that other than to see it in action!

Siroos,
I fully understand that it hard to supply proof when the Iranian Airforce and Air Defense Corps have no experience in Modern air warfare. The war Iran had with Iraq is not even close to how an air campaign would be nowadays. The majority of Iran's airforce is second generation by modern standards and that is if they can keep them in the air with proper maintenance. By my quick count there are less than 100 F-14, Mig 29 and Su-24's in Iran's Airforce. If you are attempting to equate the Iraqi airforce to the US airforce you are sorely mistaken.

Here are some Stats to Chew on from the 1st Gulf War

Allied Combat Air Sorties Flown: More than 116,000

Coalition Aircraft Losses: 75 (63 U.S., 12 Allied)
Fixed wing, 37 combat, 15 noncombat
U.S. losses, 28 combat, 12 noncombat
No U.S. losses in air-to-air engagements
Helicopters, 23 (all U.S.): 5 combat, 18 noncombat

Estimated Iraqi Losses: (U.S. Central Command, March 7, 1991)

36 fixed-wing aircraft in air-to-air engagements
6 helicopters in air-to-air engagements
68 fixed- and 13 rotary-wing aircraft destroyed on the ground
137 Iraqi aircraft flown to Iran

As you stated:

There is no way of proving that other than to see it in action!

What country will Iran fly their jets to?

Originally posted by 27jd


I'm seeing a pattern with you, no room for circumstances, very cut and dry. You rise you fall. What goes up must come down. I think we get it.

That's good. It is only logical

Example?

Take your pick of any nation on the earth, USA, Israel for example, Most of the "third world". Europe had it's reckonning day just last century. The romans had theirs, etc, etc. Is it really nec to give examples?

Nope, you're two years older than myself. Maybe you just don't have a family or something, I have a son and I don't want to see him die because of something our corrupt government brings on us. I certainly wouldn't be excited about it.

First I must be young, now I must not have kids. What do either have to do with what I am saying?You can't have it both ways. You can't say you care about what your "corrupt government"does then in the next breath say well it's nature and survival of the fittest, we are the fittest. If we are going to play by those rules then we, including you and I as American citizens must accept the inevitable, which naturally is our fall. Your kids are going to suffer much worse because we have allowed America to continue on the path it is on.Not to be biblical but the sins of the father will be visited upon the third and even fourth generation.

But nature is nature, even applied to humans, especially applied to humans. It's survival of the fittest, at this moment, we're the fittest. It won't always be that way, such is nature, but we will as long as we can.

Please see above.

Surely you saw the movie Men at Work with Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen. Remember when the cop gave that big speech and they gave him the golf clap? Oh well.

Yes, good reference




[edit on 25-3-2005 by 1wintermute1]
[edited due to ineptitude]








[edit on 3-25-2005 by ProudAmerican]

Siroos - there will be no full-scale war between the US in IRAN.

While there may be some bombings on IRAN’S Nuke facilities, I don't see any full-scale war happening unless Iran decides to nuke a US city and succeeds.

While I don't know if the US has the stomach or resources to occupy Iran - there's really no need to.

Seems to me the one thing nobody has mentioned here and history tells us from as far back as any history books go is that he who controls the high ground always has the ultimate control of any war - while that doesn't mean we can control all that happens on the ground (or under it) we can surely choose to remove anything on its surface if that's an option given by our leaders. Last time I checked the US and its ally’s controls the space above most of the earth & I don't think Iran has a space program & they probably pay someone outside of Iran for all their satellite services.

China knows this & that's why they have a vigorous space program because they want to catch up with the Europeans, US & Japan in space and the have the money & growing economy to do it. The next superpower to control the planet will probably be China & I might even move there as there's allot happening there and will be more soon. So unless Allah has sent some extraterrestrial aliens to help Iran control the high ground I'm afraid Iran doesn’t have a chance in hell to stop the U.S. from doing whatever it likes.

Besides the majority of Americans don’t hate Iranians & we don’t want to bomb Iran our only concern is someone from Iran nuking us. Thus if a war with Iran happens it will be without the support of the majority of the American Citizens like myself. I don’t think our people will allow our government to get into any more wars unless something bad happens – like a nuked us cities or one of our ally’s cities.

Though I’ve been to a few dozen countries I’ve never been to Iran, so I don’t know much about how they live except of what I see on television, read or see on sites such as this.

I'm just a regular guy with an average income. I don't hate Iranians or anyone else in the world for that matter. I don't like to hear about people dying even if it's just dying of old age. If I had my way there would be no wars. I don't tell others how to live & I despise people telling me how to live or what to believe.

My home is only about 1600 sq feet in one of the biggest cities in the US. I live comfortably & eat what ever I choose. I can walk 1/2 mile to the grocery store open 24 hours a day & buy any kind of meat or edible plant that exists on the planet (almost) right now I know there's a choice of fresh beef, lamb, ostrich, pork, buffalo, lobster, king crab, dozens of kinds of fish, etc. Or I can hope on a bus or jump in my vehical and have a chef at a restaurant prepare anything I want 24 hours a day - and I'm just a lower middle class American. I can buy any drug that exists legal or illegal or I can buy a 30-year hooker or a 13 year old one if I choose - and risk jail of course. (BTW - never had a hooker - but I know where they are) My house is climate controlled & so is my private vehical & it never gets above 80 or under 65. My electricity has gone off about once in the last 7 years due to a power pole replacement. I bathe at least once a day. I think I'm a pretty normal human being.

I don't like my government much & I don't care for the media much either, but as crappy as I think I have it sometimes when I'm broke, I don't have it all that bad.

Nope, I don't hate anyone, but when I hear about countries developing nuclear weapons, just for the purpose of killing people like me I don't have any choice but to support my country stopping them.

I think I'm pretty free & we definetely have more freedom of movement than many. I can do what ever I want right now & tomorrow I can hope in my truck & drive a thousand miles if I want or I can be at the airport in a half-hour and buy a ticket to anywhere on the planet or I can go to my buddies hanger & fly anywhere else. Maybe I'll just drive up to the mountains a take a hike just to look at the view.

Okay I admit I'm somewhat of a slave to our system, but I'm about as free as anyone can be that's not independently wealthy - or wealthy elite as some put it. If I don't make my payments they'll shut off my electricity and the goon squad from the bank will kick me out of my home. If I don't follow the laws or get caught breaking them I'll get thrown in jail or prison. But throw me naked on any street in America & with our freedom I can start with nothing and raise myself up as high as I have the desire to go - I know there's other places just as good or better. Maybe some natives on a tropical Island with no worries but gathering food and screwing the rest of the day have more freedom than me, but those are few and far between on this planet.

I guess real freedom would be being able to explore the universe taste, touch, and smell everything that exists anytime you like, but I don’t have that kind of freedom yet – maybe someday.

I don’t hate you, don’t hate me. If I’m ignorant feel free to help educate me bring me out of my ignorance & I’ll do the same for you. Why people want to kill me because I wont buy into their religion that I will never understand.

[edit on 26-3-2005 by outsider]

[edit on 26-3-2005 by outsider]

Ok guy, i hope your not really american with the crap ur saying. if you want to talk # about America move to the middle east. Thank You and Good Bye

Well I thought what outsider said was spot-on.

I'm sure there's a lot more than this to consider from political or military or conspiracy standpoints, but from an "average guy in the street" standpoint I think that's how most people see it (i.e. we have a pretty good life so leave us alone and we'll leave you alone) rightly or wrongly.

You have voted outsider for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Well said outsider, I couldn`t agree with you more. Very well spoken I might add.

Outsider, i respect that opinion but you have to ask, "what right do we have to dictate to the world what they cant or cannot build"
Your country makes weapons to kill people JUST LIKE YOU, my country does the same, every country does...its all hypocrasy and half truths....

Nicely said indeed, and some good points, & you are correct many Americans do feel similar, however..

Originally posted by outsider
Siroos - there will be no full-scale war between the US in IRAN.

While there may be some bombings on IRAN’S Nuke facilities, I don't see any full-scale war happening unless Iran decides to nuke a US city and succeeds.

Just a few years ago the "average American guy" would of said the exact same thing reguarding Iraq, whilst we were in Afghanistan. Now where are we? Notice a pattern?

While I don't know if the US has the stomach or resources to occupy Iran - there's really no need to.

What don't We as Americans understand? THE WORLDS RESOURCES ARE BECOMMING DEPLETED WE HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE IN IRAN!

Seems to me the one thing nobody has mentioned here and history tells us from as far back as any history books go is that he who controls the high ground always has the ultimate control of any war - while that doesn't mean we can control all that happens on the ground (or under it) we can surely choose to remove anything on its surface if that's an option given by our leaders. Last time I checked the US and its ally’s controls the space above most of the earth & I don't think Iran has a space program & they probably pay someone outside of Iran for all their satellite services.

China knows this & that's why they have a vigorous space program because they want to catch up with the Europeans, US & Japan in space and the have the money & growing economy to do it. The next superpower to control the planet will probably be China & I might even move there as there's allot happening there and will be more soon. So unless Allah has sent some extraterrestrial aliens to help Iran control the high ground I'm afraid Iran doesn’t have a chance in hell to stop the U.S. from doing whatever it likes.

Yes militarily control of highground does usually ensure success.You are however assuming that because we have a space program that that constitutes some source of defense capabilities , which, is simply not true. Star wars failed remember?

My home is only about 1600 sq feel in one of the biggest cities in the US. I live comfortably & eat what ever I choose. I can walk 1/2 mile to the grocery store open 24 hours a day & buy any kind of meat or edible plant that exists on the planet (almost) right now I know there's a choice of fresh beef, lamb, ostrich, pork, buffalo, lobster, king crab, dozens of kinds of fish, etc. Or I can hope on a bus or jump in my vehical and have a chef at a restaurant prepare anything I want 24 hours a day - and I'm just a lower middle class American. I can buy any drug that exists legal or illegal or I can buy a 30-year hooker or a 13 year old one if I choose - and risk jail of course. (BTW - never had a hooker - but I know where they are) My house is climate controlled & so is my private vehical & it never gets above 80 or under 65. My electricity has gone off about once in the last 7 years due to a power pole replacement. I bathe at least once a day. I think I'm a pretty normal human being.

You are anything but an average human being. Most of the world does not live like that, and you don't need to be well informed or well read to realize that.

I don't like my government much & I don't care for the media much either, but as crappy as I think I have it sometimes when I'm broke, I don't have it all that bad.

If you don't care for your government or the media so much then perhaps you shouldn't believe them when they tell you that Iran is trying to build weapons to nuke us jsut to stir up support for a war. Just like when they said Saddam had WMD's and was going to sell them to terrorist....see a pattern?

Nope, I don't hate anyone, but when I hear about countries developing nuclear weapons, just for the purpose of killing people like me I don't have any choice but to support my country stopping them.

Please see above

I don’t hate you, don’t hate me. If I’m ignorant feel free to help educate me bring me out of my ignorance & I’ll do the same for you. Why people want to kill me because I wont buy into their religion that I will never understand.

I have already posted this link once on this thread and I will do so again. For anyone who doesn't believe that the Iraqi, or Iranian war were planned years ago please go to the link. Actually READ their statement of principles, and notice the signatories at the bottom. You might be not soo pleasantly surprised.

www.newamericancentury.org...

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

I agree,...I cannot deny that there are alot that wish it. But i think most who wish it believe it is for the right cause. And will apply to the right targets, and minimize innocent people. Even those that support the war, don't want to see innocent families killed in the crossfire.


Yeah just like our nation believed saddam was a threat? Just because people believe something does not make it true.

Americans say they want to minimize civillian casualties, right? Then why do we not hold our government accountable for an accurate body count? Civillian or otherwise? Hell even ANY body count at this point would show a level of concern. We don't count bodies for a reason...Because we are bombing the living hell out of civillians and don't care!

We are not bombing civilians come-on stop your BS. We try as hard to avoid bombing civilians, remember the Carpet bombings of WWII do we still do that? NO, the U.S. has spent more money and R&D on precision guided missiles and bombs for a reason to minimize collateral damage and civilians lives lost.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
We are not bombing civilians come-on stop your BS. We try as hard to avoid bombing civilians, remember the Carpet bombings of WWII do we still do that? NO, the U.S. has spent more money and R&D on precision guided missiles and bombs for a reason to minimize collateral damage and civilians lives lost.

God you sound like a soundbite from fox-news.

No we don't carpet bomb like we once did, but that doesn't make our current practice any less deplorarble. Take one look at some photos from iraq, and you will see that whilst we have our "smart weapons" the end result is still the same...the levelling of a country.

Fact of the matter is bombs do not always hit their target.

Have you even taken a look at photos from Iraq? We have leveled most of that country and you are going to tell me that no civillians are dying? You can't be that ignorant...can you?

Originally posted by CosaNostra
Ok guy, i hope your not really american with the crap ur saying. if you want to talk # about America move to the middle east. Thank You and Good Bye

This sentence above is a perfect example of the end result of our educational system.

If you don't agree then leave this country...Love it or leave it! Blah blah blah....so typical.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
We are not bombing civilians come-on stop your BS. We try as hard to avoid bombing civilians, remember the Carpet bombings of WWII do we still do that? NO, the U.S. has spent more money and R&D on precision guided missiles and bombs for a reason to minimize collateral damage and civilians lives lost.

...Do you still bomb cities like in WW2?
Yes,
www.google.co.uk...

Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

I agree,...I cannot deny that there are alot that wish it. But i think most who wish it believe it is for the right cause. And will apply to the right targets, and minimize innocent people. Even those that support the war, don't want to see innocent families killed in the crossfire.

Yeah just like our nation believed saddam was a threat? Just because people believe something does not make it true.

Americans say they want to minimize civillian casualties, right? Then why do we not hold our government accountable for an accurate body count? Civillian or otherwise? Hell even ANY body count at this point would show a level of concern. We don't count bodies for a reason...Because we are bombing the living hell out of civillians and don't care!



Im sorry 1wintermute1, but that is absolutely false. We are not bombing the hell out of anything and everything carlessly. Did you forget that these insurgents are running in and out from schools and holy places???? For god sake they are shielding themself by women and children!!! Once again those people that are sitting here behind their desks, don't have a clue what our boys over their are going through and trying to achieve. I have a brother who just returned from deployment in Iraq. Our boys over there are going around giving candy to children, helping rebuild schools and a many other tasks to win the hearts of the people,.....and all the while getting shot in the back by insurgents hidding within the puplic. It is you that twists up the image of an american by stating that we don't give a rip who dies. We do!!,......however this is no typical war we are fighting. We are trying to minimize innocent death as much as possible all the while routing out terrorists and insurgence hiding from within the damn puplic. You tell me any other military in this world could do a better job than allied forces of US, british, Australian, and many other soldiers. I highly doubt it!!

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor

Im sorry 1wintermute1, but that is absolutely false. We are not bombing the hell out of anything and everything carlessly. Did you forget that these insurgents are running in and out from schools and holy places???? For god sake they are shielding themself by women and children!!! Once again those people that are sitting here behind their desks, don't have a clue what our boys over their are going through and trying to achieve. I have a brother who just returned from deployment in Iraq. Our boys over there are going around giving candy to children, helping rebuild schools and a many other tasks to win the hearts of the people,.....and all the while getting shot in the back by insurgents hidding within the puplic. It is you that twists up the image of an american by stating that we don't give a rip who dies. We do!!,......however this is no typical war we are fighting. We are trying to minimize innocent death as much as possible all the while routing out terrorists and insurgence hiding from within the damn puplic. You tell me any other military in this world could do a better job than allied forces of US, british, Australian, and many other soldiers. I highly doubt it!!

Oh god amazingly with some 3oo milion odd people in America it's funny how everyone now a days knows someone or another that is/was/gonna be in Iraq, or 9-11.........so what!

You think your brothers friends uncles nephew is gonna come back from war and tell you how he's been busy wasting children?

I seriously suggest you use the link provided above. Perhaps then we can talk. The country is levelled, if you don't believe me just research it yourself.

If you honestly don't think we are killing civillians(and you are dead wrong, no pun intended)Then tell me why our government will not provide a body count?

[edited due to ineptitude]

[edit on 26-3-2005 by 1wintermute1]

No sure if Iran is another Iraq or not ........

I don't know but one thing can be assure...........
Using Mao's words, it's a paper tiger--fierce enough to frighten away cowards only."


Imperialism and All Reactionaries Are Paper Tigers

All reactionaries are paper tigers. In appearance, the reactionaries are terrifying, but in reality they are not so powerful. From a long-term point of view, it is not the reactionaries but the people who are really powerful.

I have said that all the reputedly powerful reactionaries are merely paper tigers. The reason is that they are divorced from the people. Look! Was not Hitler a paper tiger? Was Hitler not overthrown? I also said that of the Tsar of Russia, the emperor of China and Japanese imperialism were all overthrown. U.S. imperialism has not yet been overthrown and it has the atom bomb. I believe it also will be overthrown. It, too, is a paper tiger.

If the U.S. monopoly capitalist groups persist in pushing their policies of aggression and war, the day is bound to come when they will be hanged by the people of the whole world. The same fate awaits the accomplices of the United States.

Take Care Iran Brother!


[edit on 26-3-2005 by wfliu]

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
What don't We as Americans understand? THE WORLDS RESOURCES ARE BECOMMING DEPLETED WE HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE IN IRAN!

So, what your saying is we need to go into Iran and rob them of their oil, because we don't have enough? All that defense money is not being spent to protect anyone it's just about control of oil for a few more years as it runs out & we switch to another form of energy and nobody really wants to kill me if I refuse to become a muslim and help keep women down and uneducated. They only want to kill me because my truck burns too much gas along with the truck hauling that Canadian bacon & Mexican avacados to my grocery store.

wintermute1 Yes, militarily control of highground does usually ensure success. You are however assuming that because we have a space program that that constitutes some source of defense capabilities , which, is simply not true. Star wars failed remember?

The fact is, unless you're in the DOD we don't know what we have. Are they robbing us of all that money that's unaccounted for or are they actually building something with it? Maybe a little of both I suspect.

One thing is for sure Command & Control can watch the battlefield live and communicate with our forces live. I don't have to ask anyone which side would you want to be on - the side guessing what's happening on the battlefield or the side who can see & hear what's going on and adjust it's forces accordingly as needed.

We've all seen the vidoes of nosemounted cameras on weapons being remotely controled down to their targets in our living rooms. The otherside's command & control doesn't even know if the missile was fired let alone whether or not it hit it's target or how much damage it did for days. We know immediately & can decide to send another missle to the target or move on to the next.

I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I would guess the side with the advantage of live battle site & communications would need only a fraction of troops & equipment to defeat the other. So, if Iran or any other country wanted to have a chance against the US they would have to knock out our satellite communications and shoot down our AWACS & whatever secret stuff we have floating up there. If I was on the otherside I would look for a way to disrupt communications and remove the disadvantage. Fact is Iran doesn't have that capability. Like it or not you can't change those facts.


[edit on 26-3-2005 by outsider]