This is why I fear mRNA vaccines.

originally posted by: Violater1

originally posted by: glen200376
Modified RNA has a direct effect on DNA-don't take my word on it-

phys.org...

Your correct, it does have a direct effect.
During cellular division, the mRNA can reproduce, and then there will be a modified DNA molecule.

And this again proves that mRNA comes from the nucleus of the cell.
www.sciencedirect.com...

Translation and replication are unrelated processes.

DNA replication does not use RNA.

Translation produces RNA, made according to the code in the DNA.

In cell mitosis, the already replicated and packaged DNA in the chromosomes are separated into discrete cells. Any RNA from the 'parent' cell is divided up into the two new cells and would be consumed in the process of normal biological function, as it was in the 'parent' cell.

Good points in the OP. mRNA vaccines do not have a shutoff built in, they override the normal immune system response, so I have no clue how this will turn out. I am very leery of this vaccine, but will not get involved in saying it is bad or good, I will just provide what evidence I find and let people decide on their own whether it is wise to take it. I may have a legitimate condition that makes taking it dumb, but my condition is fairly rare. There are people with weak immune systems, they may actually need this vaccine...I am neither an anti-vaxer or a vaxer, but I can say that I am not sure that they tested this vaccine correctly, longer term testing should have been done before approving it.

a reply to: Violater1

is that we don't know if these mRNA vaccines or the virus itself, has importin molecules.

Such proteins would have to be intentionally incorporated with the mRNA when it is synthesized. Is that what you are implying could be the case?

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Violater1


And the process of testing and approval of a vaccine means that we have a good idea of how the human immune system responds to the vaccine, before we even approve it for the general populace.

I don’t know the status of approval in your country, but here in the US, NONE of these are approved for the general populace. The FDA has exempted them from having to be approved. They have not been approved.

The FDA allowed them to fast track, but they were fully tested and are now approved for significant portions of the populace. As confidence grows, they will likely be approved for other portions of the populace, like infants, children and the elderly. At no stage was an untrialled vaccine bulk approved.

a reply to: rickymouse

they override the normal immune system response,

Nope. They induce a normal immune response to a foreign substance. In this case, the spike protein.

a reply to: Violater1

Virus itself, most definitely yes, it’s just what they do. They initiate production in the cytoplasm, block pathways like STAT and NFKB, then hijack nuclear transport. mRNA vaccine no, because it would need to produce a protein or a few, to help properly charge Ran as it cycles through GTP/GDP and binds karyopherins which carry components for nuclear transport. So it would need different mRNA transcripts besides the spike protein in the delivery system. The cell has ways to block this which is why viruses bring so many proteins and methods of generating genes and proteins with them.

With the scenario you presented, first you need to produce in the cytoplasm. Then you need to block inflammatory signaling transcription factors. Finally, you need to hijack nuclear transport and incorporate the genes you want into the nucleus with alternative splicing and other methods. Now we’re talking about a virus instead of an mRNA transcript. mRNA expression in eukaryotes isn’t like a prokaryote where you can have an entire transcript produce multiple proteins. It’s why a virus needs the nucleus so it can start generating pre-mRNA to generate variations of mRNA.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: chr0naut

I reckon that would be why more than one dose is required to produce a full immune response. The first dose gets used up.

Possibly.

I think the bigger issue is the mutability of the virus.

We had theorized that the virus would become become more benign while it became more infectious but there are now several strains that have become more infectious and more deadly. So it's a toss-up if we'll see strains resistant to the vaccines in the very near future. My hope is that the spike is going to remain much the same, and so vaccines and naturally acquired immunity will continue protect us.

a reply to: chr0naut

Two doses were the protocol in clinical trials, not much concern about variants at that time.

mRNA doesn't last long. That's why the vaccines are refrigerated and have definite expiration dates.

For example, in humans, most types of mRNA have a half life of 10 hours (some more, some less). This means that in 3 days there is less than 1% of the original (tiny) amount of mRNA still going.

With production of the spike protein disappearing so rapidly, a second dose would seem to make sense.
book.bionumbers.org...

a reply to: Violater1
I try and explain this by calling it 'reducing the bandwidth of your immune response'. Meaning your immune system once vaccinated is constantly reproducing antibodies and like you say, because of the RNA make up of the vaccine no B cells get programmed as they normally would if exposed with no vaccine.

Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel

Meaning your immune system once vaccinated is constantly reproducing antibodies

Then why did I need a Tetanus booster when I got a nasty cut on my hand a few years ago?

because of the RNA make up of the vaccine no B cells get programmed

The vaccines generate cellular immune responses (T-cell) and and humoral responses (B-cell)

covid-slides.idea.medicine.uw.edu...

BNT162b2 mRNA vaccination generates a robust humoral immune response, especially involving anti-SARS-Cov-2 IgG and IgA, magnified by the second vaccine dose.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: rickymouse

they override the normal immune system response,

Nope. They induce a normal immune response to a foreign substance. In this case, the spike protein.

From the CDC site. "mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. That immune response, which produces antibodies, is what protects us from getting infected if the real virus enters our bodies.

www.cdc.gov...

How in the hell can you say that is normal when it is not how the immune system normally works. I suppose I should not be quoting the CDC because they are not a reliable source but in this case they seem to be saying it straight. A normal immune does not utilize an adjuvant like polyethylene glycol to permeate the cells to get something into the cell either.

This is a new type of vaccine and it is by no means normal in it's method of action.

a reply to: rickymouse

How in the hell can you say that is normal when it is not how the immune system normally works.

You said this:

they override the normal immune system response,

The immune response is normal. Antibodies against a foreign substance are produced. That is normal. That is what the immune system does.

The production of that substance (spike protein) is not part of the immune system.

This is a new type of vaccine and it is by no means normal in it's method of action.

This is correct. It involves no viral material in order to produce an immune response.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: rickymouse

How in the hell can you say that is normal when it is not how the immune system normally works.

You said this:

they override the normal immune system response,

The immune response is normal. Antibodies against a foreign substance are produced. That is normal. That is what the immune system does.

The production of that substance (spike protein) is not part of the immune system.

This is a new type of vaccine and it is by no means normal in it's method of action.

This is correct. It involves no viral material in order to produce an immune response.

The immune system response is way more complex than a single part of the response. This vaccine bypasses the way that a normal vaccine which is meant to parrot a normal immune system response works. I am not saying it will cause complications, but it is bypassing a lot of the way the immune system does it's job. Is it safe long term? I do not know because there has been no long term testing done on this vaccine yet, it may be ok, it may not.

I tend to like scientific evidence, which this vaccine lacks in the long term category. If I see it has not been a problem in the next year, then I will accept it as a legitimately safe way of treating disease for most people. The people creating this vaccine did not say it was safe for everyone, in fact they eliminated groups of people who have had adverse reactions to vaccines and certain medicine intolerances from the test groups and clearly stated these people should not get the vaccine. Why did these groups of people get eliminated? Because if they were included, there would be a higher risk of adverse reactions....and the vaccine would not get approved by the agencies governing them. Not all people know that they are in the high risk group, and because of this there are more severe adverse reactions to this vaccine. I know at least a dozen people who are in that group that should not take it and their doctors did advise some of them not to take it, I talked to about four of them and their doctors told them not to get it and if I went to my doctor I know he would say no too because it is in my records from observations of other doctors that I have reacted severely to two types of vaccines. But I do know two people who plan on fibbing on the application and the vaccination sites do not look at the medical records. Hopefully they do not get really sick of the vaccine. I advised them to speak to their doctors before getting vaccinated.

a reply to: rickymouse

I am not saying it will cause complications, but it is bypassing a lot of the way the immune system does it's job.

Like what, for example? Avoiding an actual infection to induce an immune response? That's one way. But that's the point of all vaccines.

What else is "bypassed?"

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: rickymouse

How in the hell can you say that is normal when it is not how the immune system normally works.

You said this:

they override the normal immune system response,

The immune response is normal. Antibodies against a foreign substance are produced. That is normal. That is what the immune system does.

The production of that substance (spike protein) is not part of the immune system.

This is a new type of vaccine and it is by no means normal in it's method of action.

This is correct. It involves no viral material in order to produce an immune response.

The immune system response is way more complex than a single part of the response. This vaccine bypasses the way that a normal vaccine which is meant to parrot a normal immune system response works. I am not saying it will cause complications, but it is bypassing a lot of the way the immune system does it's job. Is it safe long term? I do not know because there has been no long term testing done on this vaccine yet, it may be ok, it may not.

I tend to like scientific evidence, which this vaccine lacks in the long term category. If I see it has not been a problem in the next year, then I will accept it as a legitimately safe way of treating disease for most people. The people creating this vaccine did not say it was safe for everyone, in fact they eliminated groups of people who have had adverse reactions to vaccines and certain medicine intolerance's from the test groups and clearly stated these people should not get the vaccine. Why did these groups of people get eliminated? Because if they were included, there would be a higher risk of adverse reactions....and the vaccine would not get approved by the agencies governing them. Not all people know that they are in the high risk group, and because of this there are more severe adverse reactions to this vaccine. I know at least a dozen people who are in that group that should not take it and their doctors did advise some of them not to take it, I talked to about four of them and their doctors told them not to get it and if I went to my doctor I know he would say no too because it is in my records from observations of other doctors that I have reacted severely to two types of vaccines. But I do know two people who plan on fibbing on the application and the vaccination sites do not look at the medical records. Hopefully they do not get really sick of the vaccine. I advised them to speak to their doctors before getting vaccinated.

Yes indeed sir.
This, and many other reasons, are why I will not get the jab.

originally posted by: Violater1

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Violater1

During cellular division, the J&J mRNA can reproduce,

The J&J vaccine is not an mRNA vaccine. It is a viral vector vaccine, more like a "traditional" vaccine in that it uses actual (modified) viral material.

And this again proves that mRNA comes from the nucleus of the cell.

Of course it is. Has anyone said otherwise? But with mRNA vaccines it is synthesized and injected into a muscle, it then enters the cell where it causes ribosomes to produce the spike protein.

I corrected myself, J&J Jab is not mRNA.

It doesn't matter the J&J vaccine uses a virus instead to give instructions to the cells. It still instructs your cells to produce the foreign protein. It isn't a normal vaccine.

How does a viral vector COVID-19 vaccine work? Researchers make this vaccine with a viral vector. This means they use another type of virus to carry instructions into your body’s cells. The virus is an adenovirus. This is a very common type that causes colds. For this vaccine, adenovirus type 26 (Ad26) is used. But this virus has been changed so it can’t reproduce in your cells or cause illness. This means you can’t get a cold from the vaccine. Instead, it has been given instructions to tell your cells how to make a harmless piece of a protein called a spike protein.

Don't let them confuse you.

How does a viral vector COVID-19 vaccine work?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: rickymouse

I am not saying it will cause complications, but it is bypassing a lot of the way the immune system does it's job.

Like what, for example? Avoiding an actual infection to induce an immune response? That's one way. But that's the point of all vaccines.

What else is "bypassed?"

Normally, an immune response involves the parathyroid gland, the pineal gland, the liver, and other gland activation in proper association with B cells, macrophages, and other glands and organs. It has been three years since I took the medical college class on immunity. It was a European college, but I can't remember which one. I cannot copy any of their stuff off the college site to paste, and it was a pretty long course and I am not going to waste a day looking for evidence you won't accept anyway.

a reply to: rickymouse

Normally, an immune response involves the parathyroid gland, the pineal gland, the liver, and other gland activation in proper association with B cells, macrophages, and other glands and organs.

And what reason do you have to think that the mRNA vaccines "bypass" this, somehow? How is it different from other vaccines in this regard?

The vaccines generate cellular immune responses (T-cell) and and humoral responses (B-cell)

covid-slides.idea.medicine.uw.edu...

BNT162b2 mRNA vaccination generates a robust humoral immune response, especially involving anti-SARS-Cov-2 IgG and IgA, magnified by the second vaccine dose.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

originally posted by: Violater1

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: rickymouse

How in the hell can you say that is normal when it is not how the immune system normally works.

You said this:

they override the normal immune system response,

The immune response is normal. Antibodies against a foreign substance are produced. That is normal. That is what the immune system does.

The production of that substance (spike protein) is not part of the immune system.

This is a new type of vaccine and it is by no means normal in it's method of action.

This is correct. It involves no viral material in order to produce an immune response.

The immune system response is way more complex than a single part of the response. This vaccine bypasses the way that a normal vaccine which is meant to parrot a normal immune system response works. I am not saying it will cause complications, but it is bypassing a lot of the way the immune system does it's job. Is it safe long term? I do not know because there has been no long term testing done on this vaccine yet, it may be ok, it may not.

I tend to like scientific evidence, which this vaccine lacks in the long term category. If I see it has not been a problem in the next year, then I will accept it as a legitimately safe way of treating disease for most people. The people creating this vaccine did not say it was safe for everyone, in fact they eliminated groups of people who have had adverse reactions to vaccines and certain medicine intolerance's from the test groups and clearly stated these people should not get the vaccine. Why did these groups of people get eliminated? Because if they were included, there would be a higher risk of adverse reactions....and the vaccine would not get approved by the agencies governing them. Not all people know that they are in the high risk group, and because of this there are more severe adverse reactions to this vaccine. I know at least a dozen people who are in that group that should not take it and their doctors did advise some of them not to take it, I talked to about four of them and their doctors told them not to get it and if I went to my doctor I know he would say no too because it is in my records from observations of other doctors that I have reacted severely to two types of vaccines. But I do know two people who plan on fibbing on the application and the vaccination sites do not look at the medical records. Hopefully they do not get really sick of the vaccine. I advised them to speak to their doctors before getting vaccinated.

Yes indeed sir.
This, and many other reasons, are why I will not get the jab.

I am by no means an anti-vaxer, and a lot of people will benefit from a vaccine. If someone were to ask my opinion which was best, I would say the J&J and maybe astrozenaca might have more evidence to back their safety. My wife got the J&J and she has not had any side effects. I do know quite a few people who got the Pfizer or Moderna and have had some pretty iffy side effects, but so far they are still alive and kicking. Two old people I know died within a couple of days of getting the Pfizer vaccine, but there is no direct proof that it actually contributed to their death...now they don't give the vaccine if you just had an operation or are going to get an operation shortly and that would have excluded both of the people who died shortly after the jab...they were on their way out anyway though, one had severe alzheimer and just had a shattered hip fixed from falling, I do not know what the other person had been operated on for, I would have to ask the wife.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Violater1


And the process of testing and approval of a vaccine means that we have a good idea of how the human immune system responds to the vaccine, before we even approve it for the general populace.

I don’t know the status of approval in your country, but here in the US, NONE of these are approved for the general populace. The FDA has exempted them from having to be approved. They have not been approved.

The FDA allowed them to fast track, but they were fully tested and are now approved for significant portions of the populace. As confidence grows, they will likely be approved for other portions of the populace, like infants, children and the elderly. At no stage was an untrialled vaccine bulk approved.

Again- they are not approved in the US. They are exempted from requiring approval by the FDA in order to give them to the public. Look it up before you spout lies about not even your own country.

They do not have the years in trial nor numbers and types of people tested in order to be approved by the FDA.