Where do your rights come from?

a reply to: nerbot

We are getting there you define your rights as your needs ballanced against your moralistic values.

I understand you see society as doing what it will and being willing to go along to get along or as you put it bending when you must.

In order to get a full data set let me ask you do you want to bend more often or less often?

a reply to: Stevenmonet

Rights flow from nature or God...take your pick. Example: I don't want anyone to hurt me or the people I love, so I don't hurt others.

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Thenail
a reply to: Lumenari

George Carlin said we don’t have rights , we have temporary privileges and we know how he felt about God . If someone could post that it’d be appreciated and we all could use a laugh I’m sure

George Carlin made himself a multi-millionaire mocking the very system that made him one.

Agreed, just remember sometimes comedians get laughs by pointing out inconsistent beliefs we as humans can simultaniously hold in our heads at once.

a reply to: Stevenmonet

I would say that rights are God-given, but Conservatives support, as rights, things that are at odds with God's Law.

For instance, the so-called "right to free speech" is at odd with "thou shall not bear false witness". In practice, this has lead to all sorts of evil being allowed in the USA, under the banner of its 1st Amendment.

Then there is the unbiblical 2nd Amendment. Clearly the carrying of a weapon, with any intent to use it, even in self-defense, is incompatible with multiple commandments (thou shalt not kill - thou shall not steal - forgiveness - trust in God to defend - not taking the Law into your own hands, & etc).

So, I don't think that Conservatives and right-leaning people are Godly. What they are is Pharisaical, pretending Godliness. Jesus called them "whitewashed tombs, on the outside all neat and clean looking, but on the inside, full of corruption".

The real truth is that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Left and right.

originally posted by: Stevenmonet
a reply to: Lumenari

I agree with what you are saying. America was founded by men who felt their rights come from god who formed a very limited government.

This fits my hypothesis.

Separation of church and state as you define it is also how I see the founders of America defining it when they wrote the document.

So my questions were: do you beleive your rights come from your god/creator like America's founders did, or do your rights come from the documents/customs your government/society calls laws/social norms?

Do you think your government should be larger and or have more oversight over your daily activities, or do you think your government should be smaller and/or have less oversight over your daily actions?

You could also just say yes the hypothesis fits for me or no it doesn't. As much as I love and value for input I need more Info to turn it into a usable data set.

Neither.

You don't have to believe in a God/Creator to exist.

The Founders were aware of that.

Your rights also do not come from any type of government.

Your rights, by natural law, preclude any type of government.

The FACT that you exist gives you certain inalienable rights.

It is such a simple concept and is practiced by every life-form on earth...

Nevermind... I give up.

~wanders out of the thread~

We have a Constitution, which lists our rights, that applies to this nation. It includes God given rights that no government should be able to undermine. The Constitution also provides a method of negotiating the areas where individual rights intersect or conflict.

I believe the government should exist only to enforce the Constitution at the federal level and nothing more. They don't need to be telling us what crops to grow or make sure our four year olds have access to a non-binary gender education. When government reaches that level of interference in daily life they have exceeded the boundaries and limits of their power.

I am conservative by nature and typically vote republican though I will cross the line if the candidate is good enough.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Stevenmonet

That's sound I'm not an American.

Although the thread is for everyone.

Its not my opinion mate is simple fact of the matter.

No i don't advocate for absolute control as it corrupts absolutely.

Nor do i have the magic recipe for the paradigm shift and/or kick in the arse our race requires to realise her true potential and address some of the larger questions and problems we face together.

A one world government is inevitable if we are ever to become a stage one civilisation, advocation or otherwise.

How we get there can be as painful or enjoyable as we choose, but the alternative is to stagnate and die on the vine.

We wont ever build a utopia down to the human condition, but we may get off this rock and on to greener pastures should we try hard and put aside our petty differences and squabbles.

Anyhoo nice to spit bail the universe with you. up:

Whew lots to digest there but I think we are closer to a usable data set..

"I dont advocate for absolute control as it corrupts absolutely"

Is followed by "A one world government is inevitable if we are ever to become a stage one civilisation, advocation or otherwise."

And finally "We wont ever build a utopia down to the human condition, but we may get off this rock and on to greener pastures should we try hard and put aside our petty differences and squabbles"

From this I take it you are not advocating for total control by men but you are willing to accept more government oversight in the form of an eventual one world government as long as we becone a class 1 society.

All I need to know is as an atheist do you decide for yourself what is right or do social norms/laws matter more to you.

Basically what am asking is if you think of right and wrong in moral terms or legal/social terms.

If you do something you feel is wrong is it because you hurt/offended yourself/god , or Because you hurt/offended somone else/society/broke a law?

I get that you said your an atheist that is why I have included yourself as god. In my opinion most atheist define their role as one would a god's once you cut through all the terminology.

a reply to: stormson

"Your rights come from a government not your god."

Ok that is one half of a full data set.

Do you feel your government needs/should have more or less control/oversight of your daily activities.

If you feel uncomfortable sharing that information you could have also simply said yes I feel the hypothesis describes me accurately, or no the hypothesis does not fit me.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Thanks for the response, but in fairness I was hoping for a full data set.

I understand you feel your rights come from your god/creator.

Do you feel that your government needs/should have more or less control/oversight over your daily activities?

a reply to: Stevenmonet

Lets be clear here - the unfortunate truth is that the only right we actually have is the right to breath air.......all other rights are superficial at best brought about by past conflict and only sustainable due to lack of further conflict.

So the right to breath air is involuntary therefore god given and voluntary to those who want to opt out of life.

Your political pigeon holeing sounds accurate for todays state of affairs but the truly god driven do not affiliate with any of those categories.

(Nutshell answer for a deeply complicated question.)

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Stevenmonet

I would say that rights are God-given, but Conservatives support, as rights, things that are at odds with God's Law.

For instance, the so-called "right to free speech" is at odd with "thou shall not bear false witness". In practice, this has lead to all sorts of evil being allowed in the USA, under the banner of its 1st Amendment.

Then there is the unbiblical 2nd Amendment. Clearly the carrying of a weapon, with any intent to use it, even in self-defense, is incompatible with multiple commandments (thou shalt not kill - thou shall not steal - forgiveness - trust in God to defend - not taking the Law into your own hands, & etc).

So, I don't think that Conservatives and right-leaning people are Godly. What they are is Pharisaical, pretending Godliness. Jesus called them "whitewashed tombs, on the outside all neat and clean looking, but on the inside, full of corruption".

The real truth is that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Left and right.

Quick snapshot here let me know if I'm unfairly characterizing your position as I understand it.

Rights: you feel your rights come from your god/creator......

Conservatives in your opinion are pharisees, but both left and right we are all sinners fall short of glory through sin and only gods grace can/will save us from the consequence of all sin which is death.

If that is correct I just need to know one thing In order to get complete and usable data set from what you have given me so far.

Do you feel your government needs/should have more or less control/oversight over your daily activities?

Don't ask leftists or Communists. They think rights don't exist and that they have a monopoly on Anarchism. They suck up to the state and believe they are only allowed to do what they are told by authority. They can't think for themselves.

I must be an "outlier" then, because I'm conservative, but in the sense that American Conservatism comes from Classical Liberalism. But, I'm not necessary a "Capitalist" I merely use the current system in place to my benefit.
That being said, I'm also an Anarchist. I also don't necessarily believe in God or a creator, but that there could be one. But, even if one or many do exist I don't look to them for permission to have rights.

So according to the "Left" I don't exist. But ef em. I don't need their permission either.

I don't need the state's permission. I don't need God's permission. I don't need anyone's permission. I would rather live free and die doing what I want to enjoy life than live a BS life of serving those who attempt to leech off me.

I live in Tennessee, and I find that ever since people started moving here en masse most of them would rather give everything up Fahrenheit 451 style if it meant they could live in ignorance just to feel safe. Even if there was a war going on in the next town.

No rights, and daddy gov taking care of everything means they don't have to feel responsible for anything. It's not their fault. It's the government's fault.

a reply to: Lumenari

You can call it the natural order of the universe, but here is a direct quote for you from one of America's founding documents the declaration of independence.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

So in what part of that first half of the first sentance of America's declaration of independence did you miss the words created and creator?

If you cant concede that American founders believed themselves and all men creations of a creator and enshrined that In the first half of the first sentance of the first document that was critical in founding America in the form of the declaration of Independence, I doubt there is much more value you can provide this conversation.

a reply to: Stevenmonet
Having posted a couple times but seeing you just want straight up answers here are mine:
Rights come from the government/society.

Government should be as small as possible.

I'm guessing that is going to make me one of those outliers you mentioned.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

This is a complete data set! Boom thank you thank you thank you.

God given rights.

Conservative by nature but will cross the line.

This fits my hypothesis. Super easy wish they were all like this but some of this is about learning to tease out the needed data set.

a reply to: CthruU

Cool. Political pigeon holes aside at least you find my hypothesis accurate for today's state of affairs. I would be just as happy if you didn't agree with it.

That is why I'm intrigued by your pigeon hole remark maybe idk. Could just be it cut me and I need time to decide why. So I will do that.

We can agree to disagree regarding my intent, the value of my persuit, and whether it is godly till the cows come home, but thank you for helping me out at least.

originally posted by: AutomateThis1
Don't ask leftists or Communists. They think rights don't exist and that they have a monopoly on Anarchism. They suck up to the state and believe they are only allowed to do what they are told by authority. They can't think for themselves.

I must be an "outlier" then, because I'm conservative, but in the sense that American Conservatism comes from Classical Liberalism. But, I'm not necessary a "Capitalist" I merely use the current system in place to my benefit.
That being said, I'm also an Anarchist. I also don't necessarily believe in God or a creator, but that there could be one. But, even if one or many do exist I don't look to them for permission to have rights.

So according to the "Left" I don't exist. But ef em. I don't need their permission either.

I don't need the state's permission. I don't need God's permission. I don't need anyone's permission. I would rather live free and die doing what I want to enjoy life than live a BS life of serving those who attempt to leech off me.

I live in Tennessee, and I find that ever since people started moving here en masse most of them would rather give everything up Fahrenheit 451 style if it meant they could live in ignorance just to feel safe. Even if there was a war going on in the next town.

No rights, and daddy gov taking care of everything means they don't have to feel responsible for anything. It's not their fault. It's the government's fault.

You may not be an outlier after all, but let's see if my attempt to tease out a data set with what you provided me so far works.

Snapshot take away from your comment.

In your opinion leftists and communists don't believe in rights unless they are granted by the state. And you are not one of those two things.

Basically you are having trouble figuring out where you fit on my political spectrum.

That is fine because the way I see it you feel your government should have less control/oversight of your daily life.

If that is correct then we just have to figure out where your believe your rights come from, and I think you have given me that too but let's see.

You dont think your rights come from government/society or as you put it you would be a communist leftist.

You say you don't need the states permission and you dont need gods permission. You don't believe in god or a creator, but that there could be one.

If it is fair to say you act as arbiter of right and wrong as you see fit in place of some god/creator until you meet him/her/it face to face, but until then live free and die doing what you want rather then letting the state/government/society make up your mind for you.

If the above is an agreeable though somewhat pigeon holed/over generalized sumation of your views, then I would say you fit my hypothesis.

You see rights as moral not governmental or societal. For now you act as arbiter of your own morals, but you are open to the idea of their being a god/creator to whom you may be responsible some day.

And unless I completely missed the mark you would prefer your government have less control/oversight over your daily activities.

If I'm off let me know how and where, but until then I'm calling this a yes for my hypothesis.

*

a reply to: daskakik

Yep, but that is ok all data is good data.

You are only an outlier if my hypothesis is correct.

It is fully possible that by the time this thread peters out you are within the majority of data sets and there is no correlation between where you believe your rights come from and your political leanings.

I am fully prepared for this eventuality.

I am open to discussing this topic as far and fully as others are willing to share, but you are correct In that my primary concern is in testing my hypothesis.

Thanks for the data set. I thought I have been responding to all comments in order, but if I missed your prior comments I apologize. I will circle back in this thread and respond to them soon.

I just want to make it clear that I dod not skip yours or any other comments intentionally.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: schuyler
Sounds good but it starts off "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." which basically means "this is what we believe", doesn't make it true, though.

The idea of inalienable rights, while noble and desirable, could not be made real if the society does not recognize them and works towards preserving them. Why would this be needed if they were truly inalienable?

Sorry I missed this one earlier probably because it was posted as a reply to somone else's comment regarding America's declaration of Independence as it pertains to the origins of rights.

I agree that the founders beliefs were what was enshrined in that document. I would not call them objective facts, but I agree with them for whatever that is worth.

I agree that inalienable rights made apparent throughout all of creation is noble and desirable, but I also see how society attempts to replace gods natural order with our own faulty/broken order.

In my opinion this does not mean our god given rights are alienable in the sense that absent of our will we can be deprived of them.

The fact is we can be deprived of our life liberty and permit of happiness only if we allow it to happen. As long as god is for us who can be against us?

Either we stand strong in faith that god will deliver us from evil, or we yield in the face of evil from fear.

Either we have a jealous god who would be our only master and we are faithful to him or we allow men to take dominion of what is his.

As another member pointed out jesus said render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's, but when he did so did jesus hold up a baby or a coin with ceasers face on it?

If a baby we are ceaser's body and soul, if a coin then only that which ceaser can Take/hold can possibly be his.

At least this is how I see it.

originally posted by: Stevenmonet
I just want to make it clear that I dod not skip yours or any other comments intentionally.

I didn't mean it that way.

It's just that I replied to a couple of posts veering off of what you had asked for in the OP.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way but in your reply to AutomateThis1, you seem to be fudging the data a little. It looks like you're kinda stretching the "god can exist" to pull a yes on that one.

Now for a stretch of my own. I think anyone questioning what rights are is potentially in the "rights come from gov/society group". The reason I say this is because the "rights come from god" group don't really question what rights really are. Rights are rights and god gave them to all of us. As someone in that group said earlier "It is a pretty simple concept."