Believers and non-believers...

a reply to: Iscool

Well, if you saw what you saw and it scared you, I am guessing I wouldn't want to see it.
Is your story anywhere where we can read it?

originally posted by: recrisp

I agree with what you say, but I am unclear as to what you mean in the above...
Are you saying that there is TRUE "evidence", or you saying, "evidence", being sarcastic? The quotes is what is throwing me off.
I ask because I am personally a non-believer in those particular instances.

It's quoted to separate it from the real meaning. Many believers use weak leveled "evidence" like eyewitness testimony to argue their point.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8
Ohhh, O.K., that is how I saw it, but I wasn't sure.

Thank you!

I’ve worked in the airlines, in military service, as a contractor to people at Boeing, NASA, and others. At social events and other off-the-clock activities, I’ve often tried to gently nudge others into divulging what they saw, heard, or otherwise encountered. I’ve tried to maintain an open, non-judgmental mind when encountering others that have had a sighting or “experience” of some kind. This has enabled many to feel less threatened or vulnerable, though there is almost universal hesitation to even broach the topic. Pilots and astronauts, and almost all DOD personnel are especially cautious and tight-lipped.

With years here on ATS and other Forums, as well as decades of research, organization involvement (MUFON, etc.) and meeting and speaking with folks like Greer and Cameron, some conclusions seem inescapable.

First, increasingly disconcerting, is that the effort to monetize the phenomenon is having a detrimental effect on obtaining the truth, or even identifying it. Check out any UFO-conference-for-the-masses and see the “panel of experts” consist of ‘celebrity-truth-seekers’ a la Ancient Aliens, et al.

Tom DL and his merry band of TTSA-wannabes fall into the same monetizing of the phenomenon, Tom with “entertainment”. The new monetizing effort underway by “the experts” is having us all chase that ethereal “consciousness” around in books and videos. Like aliens, and saucers, most of us will never get a chance to “experience” this phenomenon – but it explains EVERYTHING. And it’s for sale.

The second observation is that even with several high-powered, feature-rich cameras on EVERYONE’S cell phone – we still can’t seem to get a decent picture of anything. Why is that? Ever stop to wonder how we are able to see incredibly detailed footage of myriad incidents on sophisticated aircraft gun cameras -for decades – yet all we seem to get to date are little out-of-focus fuzzy dots or lights in the distance? NSA, NGA and other GEOINT folks have been bragging for years that they can read automobile license plates from space. Ok – so a few seconds of a fuzzy Tic-Tac is all you’ve got? Your best gun cameras have never gotten anything better than that, eh? Riiiight….

Belief? Non-Belief? Neither is proof. People often feel very, very strongly about their “beliefs”. You can see it, practically smell and taste it in their posts, this belief is so pungent at times. But it is not proof. It is not even “evidence”. How many times have you heard an “expert” say – “This is it! It is what we’ve all been waiting for! Actual evidence of visitation!” Nope. It’s just programmed media clip filming experts express their “belief” in the evidence presented to them.
Have you seen this evidence? Me neither. Look – as our pal Fox Mulder loved to say, “I Wanna Believe”. But wanting something and actually possessing it are two different things.

On these hallowed threads, great posters aplenty have given testimony so compelling, so intriguing, so believable, that I well, frankly, am quite envious and jealous of them all. I mean, DAMN! I so wish that I, as a kid, COULD have a experienced a 100’-wide disc with red lights all around hovering in silence over my house! My mom yanking on my arm, every critter for leagues around in stunned silence. I WANT THAT!

Of course, many experiencers that have opened up to me over the years have admonished me for reacting this way. “No”, they would say, “...it was terrifying”, or, “I’m not happy to have seen what I did”. I stopped expressing dripping with envy after the first few times I got my weenie slapped for it.

But still – I’ve chatted with a few folks even here at ATS, like the Amigos, about how many of us on ATS seem to be serious about the topic, about discerning the truth, but that we ourselves are often light on experiences ourselves. Someone should reason a mathematical correlation on that sometime.

So to the many abductees out there: Yikes! No, some of that is NOT what I’d like my encounter to be like whatsoever. No probing instruments or related procedures until we get to know each other a bit better first.

To CE1-CE3-folks: Wow – thousands upon thousands of witnesses and sightings worldwide every year! And nobody can get a single picture? You’ve been inseparable from your over-capable, smart-camera-phone for like, forever! Will someone PLEEEEAZZZZ post a decent picture already! I mean no disrespect (especially to witnesses describing events of decades ago).

But these days? We may believe you saw what you saw! But I didn’t see it. I wasn’t there (as usual). *sigh*. Here’s a thought: With some planning, of course, but if we can get, say a million people evenly distributed worldwide, (like through some social-media campaign), to ALL look up at the same time and sweep their cameras across skyward. We could get some very broad coverage that way. Maybe we can get a decent video clip or picture to share then. Hank or someone here on ATS tried a similar rooftop viewing exercise here on ATS ten years or so ago. Not much came from that either…

So, the bottom line is well, the bottom line (as in my signature). Belief is great and I commend all with strong beliefs. But it proves nothing to me, personally. Witnesses may have seen irrefutable giant saucers over their farm, flashing lights, noiseless propulsion, even floating (or dismembered) cows – the whole nine yards. Some may have been abducted, or just went on enlightening voyages aboard spaceships (like Greer). I have not been abducted (at least, not that I’m aware of!), and have never been lucky enough to go much faster than a commercial airliner. But boy would I LOVE to go for a spaceship ride!

Are they out there? Probably. Mathematician Amir D. Aczel proved that one to me. Should we reach out to them, call out to them? Maybe not, according to the late, great, Stephen Hawking. Are they here? Have they been here? Are they here right now?

I don’t know.

But there’s a bunch of us here that have a burning desire to know. Al the fuzzy pics, goofy videos, and endless stream of eye-witness accounts are interesting, even profound for the experiences themselves perhaps – do nothing for the rest of us. Our appetite is aroused for more – but that is all. After a few moments, it is replaced again with an empty, vacuous gaping hole of frustration and ignorance.

Are they here? I don’t know. “BUT THE EVIDENCE!”, you scream! I have seen no evidence I can say convinces me that anything from another planet has been here. And I’ve looked at a lot.

IS it KNOWN? By anyone? Now that is an interesting question. Because if IS known: then it is something that is important enough that we should all be privileged enough to know it as well. Since we do not know, that means the secret is either very well kept indeed (beyond the ability of humans independently, I suspect), or, there is no such secret to keep.

And with that, I bid you, my good friends, adieu…

All human information gained via the traditional 5 senses and logic is tertiary and partial. So it may be said that anything espoused by a human has some level of confabulation. Plato's cave... yada yada yada.

That said, if someone has interest in "the phenomenon" it might be worth it to go through some of the less popular, classic materials, like Jim McDonald's research and J and C Lorenzen of APRO. The stuff on the History Channel, average podcast or mainstream media ain't gonna inform.

Of course, a sighting or ten with your own peepers trumps it all, but unless one goes outside on occasion without staring at their phone, a sighting is likely not on the menu.

But sure... always be polite and recognize others are at least partially sentient, too.

originally posted by: Outrageo
I’ve worked in the airlines, in military service, as a contractor to people at Boeing, NASA, and others. At social events and other off-the-clock activities, I’ve often tried to gently nudge others into divulging what they saw, heard, or otherwise encountered. I’ve tried to maintain an open, non-judgmental mind when encountering others that have had a sighting or “experience” of some kind. This has enabled many to feel less threatened or vulnerable, though there is almost universal hesitation to even broach the topic. Pilots and astronauts, and almost all DOD personnel are especially cautious and tight-lipped.

With years here on ATS and other Forums, as well as decades of research, organization involvement (MUFON, etc.) and meeting and speaking with folks like Greer and Cameron, some conclusions seem inescapable.

First, increasingly disconcerting, is that the effort to monetize the phenomenon is having a detrimental effect on obtaining the truth, or even identifying it. Check out any UFO-conference-for-the-masses and see the “panel of experts” consist of ‘celebrity-truth-seekers’ a la Ancient Aliens, et al.

Tom DL and his merry band of TTSA-wannabes fall into the same monetizing of the phenomenon, Tom with “entertainment”. The new monetizing effort underway by “the experts” is having us all chase that ethereal “consciousness” around in books and videos. Like aliens, and saucers, most of us will never get a chance to “experience” this phenomenon – but it explains EVERYTHING. And it’s for sale.

The second observation is that even with several high-powered, feature-rich cameras on EVERYONE’S cell phone – we still can’t seem to get a decent picture of anything. Why is that? Ever stop to wonder how we are able to see incredibly detailed footage of myriad incidents on sophisticated aircraft gun cameras -for decades – yet all we seem to get to date are little out-of-focus fuzzy dots or lights in the distance? NSA, NGA and other GEOINT folks have been bragging for years that they can read automobile license plates from space. Ok – so a few seconds of a fuzzy Tic-Tac is all you’ve got? Your best gun cameras have never gotten anything better than that, eh? Riiiight….

Belief? Non-Belief? Neither is proof. People often feel very, very strongly about their “beliefs”. You can see it, practically smell and taste it in their posts, this belief is so pungent at times. But it is not proof. It is not even “evidence”. How many times have you heard an “expert” say – “This is it! It is what we’ve all been waiting for! Actual evidence of visitation!” Nope. It’s just programmed media clip filming experts express their “belief” in the evidence presented to them.
Have you seen this evidence? Me neither. Look – as our pal Fox Mulder loved to say, “I Wanna Believe”. But wanting something and actually possessing it are two different things.

On these hallowed threads, great posters aplenty have given testimony so compelling, so intriguing, so believable, that I well, frankly, am quite envious and jealous of them all. I mean, DAMN! I so wish that I, as a kid, COULD have a experienced a 100’-wide disc with red lights all around hovering in silence over my house! My mom yanking on my arm, every critter for leagues around in stunned silence. I WANT THAT!

Of course, many experiencers that have opened up to me over the years have admonished me for reacting this way. “No”, they would say, “...it was terrifying”, or, “I’m not happy to have seen what I did”. I stopped expressing dripping with envy after the first few times I got my weenie slapped for it.

But still – I’ve chatted with a few folks even here at ATS, like the Amigos, about how many of us on ATS seem to be serious about the topic, about discerning the truth, but that we ourselves are often light on experiences ourselves. Someone should reason a mathematical correlation on that sometime.

So to the many abductees out there: Yikes! No, some of that is NOT what I’d like my encounter to be like whatsoever. No probing instruments or related procedures until we get to know each other a bit better first.

To CE1-CE3-folks: Wow – thousands upon thousands of witnesses and sightings worldwide every year! And nobody can get a single picture? You’ve been inseparable from your over-capable, smart-camera-phone for like, forever! Will someone PLEEEEAZZZZ post a decent picture already! I mean no disrespect (especially to witnesses describing events of decades ago).

But these days? We may believe you saw what you saw! But I didn’t see it. I wasn’t there (as usual). *sigh*. Here’s a thought: With some planning, of course, but if we can get, say a million people evenly distributed worldwide, (like through some social-media campaign), to ALL look up at the same time and sweep their cameras across skyward. We could get some very broad coverage that way. Maybe we can get a decent video clip or picture to share then. Hank or someone here on ATS tried a similar rooftop viewing exercise here on ATS ten years or so ago. Not much came from that either…

So, the bottom line is well, the bottom line (as in my signature). Belief is great and I commend all with strong beliefs. But it proves nothing to me, personally. Witnesses may have seen irrefutable giant saucers over their farm, flashing lights, noiseless propulsion, even floating (or dismembered) cows – the whole nine yards. Some may have been abducted, or just went on enlightening voyages aboard spaceships (like Greer). I have not been abducted (at least, not that I’m aware of!), and have never been lucky enough to go much faster than a commercial airliner. But boy would I LOVE to go for a spaceship ride!

Are they out there? Probably. Mathematician Amir D. Aczel proved that one to me. Should we reach out to them, call out to them? Maybe not, according to the late, great, Stephen Hawking. Are they here? Have they been here? Are they here right now?I don’t know. But there’s a bunch of us here that have a burning desire to know. Al the fuzzy pics, goofy videos, and endless stream of eye-witness accounts are interesting, even profound for the experiences themselves perhaps – do nothing for the rest of us. Our appetite is aroused for more – but that is all. After a few moments, it is replaced again with an empty, vacuous gaping hole of frustration and ignorance.Are they here? I don’t know. “BUT THE EVIDENCE!”, you scream! I have seen no evidence I can say convinces me that anything from another planet has been here. And I’ve looked at a lot. IS it KNOWN? By anyone? Now that is an interesting question. Because if IS known: then it is something that is important enough that we should all be privileged enough to know it as well. Since we do not know, that means the secret is either very well kept indeed (beyond the ability of humans independently, I suspect), or, there is no such secret to keep.

And with that, I bid you, my good friends, adieu…

Do you have a bad case of abduction envy ?

From someone who does know....if forces you to change your Paradigm...thereby disconncting you by Proxy from Status Quo Paradigms....so clearly and obviously one cannot come to terms with and exist within a new Paradigm while working under the envelope of an old Paradigm....you see you have to CHANGE YOUR OWN PARADIGM WILLINGLY.

originally posted by: recrisp
a reply to: recrisp
Yeah, maybe, but here's where they got you, we can't prove that they did or didn't do something, or, we can't prove a thing.
Truth is good, but to not being able to prove that truth, well, we're right back to square one.
You're right about government corruptions though, it may start there and probably will end there. Whatever that means.

It doesn't matter. You know what you tell to be true, if nobody believes you, your story is still true. I never went around telling mine, I think this website is the only one I've ever went into detail about. My mom was a huge skeptic until she saw one. I've seen a lot of things and most were seen when I had someone else with me. My kids don't have to ask me to tell a ghost story, they ask me to tell them about one I've seen. Maybe it's easier when you have an open mind to otherworldly things, I don't know.

I've always felt some sort of connection to things not of this earth, or common life on this earth. Too many times to count, I've heard the pitter patter of a small child run through my house, I've heard the door of my dryer shut at odd times, I've found a handprint on a freshly cleaned bathroom mirror that was too small to fit the hand size of any of my kids when it happened. My wife laughed when I told her about it (it all happened before we were dating) because she's skeptical as well. One early morning as she was feeding our then newborn in his baby room, she heard our cat playing on the kitchen floor like he was flopping around with a toy. When walked out of the baby room, she said the noise stopped. When she walked past the kitchen into the bedroom, she saw the cat still asleep on our bed. It's been 4 years and she still refuses to stay there by herself if I'm gone.

I don't tell about my experiences in hopes of convincing people what I've seen is true or real (I'm just an anonymous guy on a conspiracy forum), I only share it because - honestly - it feels good to be able to share it among a group of people which many have had their own experiences and can relate. Besides you guys here on this website, only my close friends and family have ever heard my experiences.

originally posted by: Iscool
a reply to: recrisp

Doesn't matter to me if I'm the only person on the face of the earth that believes in UFO...If you had seen what I saw there would be two of us believers...

Three... I believe you. What I saw was way too close to be something from the military because it would have made some kind of noise. What I saw was like something that sucked away any noise within a certain radius.

a reply to: recrisp

I was 9 years old so "outer space" was the only thing I figured it could be from. My mom has ALWAYS been the overprotective worrywart type so I don't know if she even attempted to begin to wonder where it came from. When we relived that night over a small family BBQ last year, I asked her why she freaked out and she said because she'd seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind (referring to when it came out, not recently) and all she could think about was the little boy in that film getting taken away as the mom ran helplessly through a field towards a UFO that disappeared out of sight and she wasn't about to take a risk like that. Mom was never into sci-fi so you'd you'd just have to know her. If I'd been the only one to see it then I doubt anyone besides my sister would have believed me, but since mom was there to see it too, nobody in the family doubts it. You have to understand, this wasn't something with pretty lights way off in the distance zipping around as we watched in amazement safely from our front yard, it was so close that we were in - what mom has concluded - its vacuum. It literally followed right beside us as we drove 25 or 30 mph down the road and then stopped as mom pulled into the driveway, and hovered right there across the street just over the trees.

Personally, I believe there are UFO's and life in the universe. One look at the current events here in the US is enough to convince just about anyone that we cant possibly be the most intelligent life in the universe. Half our country doesn't know which bathroom to use...

My own experience is limited but still had an impact on me. I was driving one night and saw a light in the sky. I am familiar with aircraft and have lived near one of the busiest airports in the country most of my life. I know a plane when I see one. Nothing about the motion of this craft seemed odd, but the way it lit up was very strange. It would periodically get really bright. That kind of super bright white that almost starts to look blue around the edges. It would glow like that for a second or two, then dim, then glow again. By the time I pulled over and got my cell phone out it was gone.

I know that is very little to go on and not proof of anything. But it made me wonder. And that is what its all about for me. The things that make you wonder...could it be?

I want to keep that possibility alive.

I do believe in UFO's but I don't believe they are extraterrestrial,
I am thinking more inner-dimensional.I am expecting a UFO fleet
to pop up any time soon.I wouldn't be too exited when they finally
show up,they won't be very friendly.

a reply to: mamabeth


Non-friendly would still be very exciting.

a reply to: Outrageo
I'm in complete agreement in what you're saying. he 'sale' of the UFO movement has been done to where there is no real end to what they can hawk anymore. nobody that I am aware of is believable when it comes to any of these guys you mentioned. I understand that people have an interest and find they can make a living doing that, but when they cross over to the 'other side', then they are doing the people a disservice and injustice.

I am also on the same thought wave as people and their cameras and the lack of a good video/picture. Who wouldn't be?
To your thought on having a million cameras trained on the skies is what I have always said, if we have the technology why can't somebody get something more concrete for someone that knows about these things. Still, with a perfect photograph it's not enough proof of a thing. We can't win that battle.
I mean, IF this is all our own tech, there would be pictures.

Which brings up, in EVERY video on the news about a person with a cell phone that is taking a video of a crime, they ALWAYS act as though they are in a terrible hurricane! They are all over the place with the aim. I don't know what kind of person that is that does that, but they are spreading, I mean that is common sense to keep it as steady as possible.
Another one is they see a light moving between house to house (for instance) and they don't bother going on the other side.
The ones that are on the freeway, they just pull over and rarely ever follow that light.
So with that lack of common sense we'll never win that battle of getting people to take a picture of a video correctly.
(Don't even get me started on the never videoing in ho0rizontal mode rather than portrait!)

The aliens that we know have changed throughout the history we're aware of in the last two centuries, or, longer.
What has happened, and this is not any huge secret, but in the early days of UFOlogy the first aliens looked a certain way, so did their craft(s). As time progressed they seemed to change, as time went on even more they developed into what we all know as Greys. Of course along with that their 'ships', etc. also changed, more in line with the times, and with that came the internet, that made it to where we ALL can 'know' that there is a certain type alien that is more 'popular' than the old style. So, let's go with that one, it's way cooler!

In the 20's it was crazy looking "beings", the word, "aliens" was rarely used, then it became that the beings looked more Nordic, then they were mutant-type looking monkeys, or lizards, to insects, to God knows what there is. After years the word, "alien" was the norm, and along with that word came the grey as we know it. Then, the grey had multiple looks, it seems that there is not just one species, but several!
No longer do we see the aliens of old, why is that?
No longer do we see the really popular tall blonde Nordics, and the rest that were so prevalent in the early days.
I know why, most of that crap is made up, that ids all it can be, it was a popular belief and they went with the coolest aliens they could dream up.

That's just part of a BIG reason that nobody wants to believe someone that claims they saw a UFO/spacecraft/alien. We've been fed crap for so long that it's really too late to go back and try and fix the problem.
With the advent of the internet it's like trying to catch a fireman's water hose, it just can't be done, things have gotten so out of hand it's futile to try.

Like you, I'd LOVE to go on a ride with the aliens, but, my luck it'd be, "The Kanamits" from the episode, "To Serve Man"... heheh

a reply to: Baddogma
Very well said, I particularly like your last line.

Thank you!

a reply to: LSU2018

I have always felt a connection to otherworldly things, but in my case, I feel it was I wanted it to happen so much, something special happen, I think that happens to a lot of us. Not you, I'm not saying that, I'm only saying that I felt a 'pull' that was probably a 'want', rather than what you said. Ever since I was a kid being brought up in the early 50's I had a yearning for 'spacey things', it was a part of me, and still is, it's just that now, I think I know what that was, it was 'just me' wanting cool things to happen, or see something.

My own sister is one of those that will embellish any story (she's not a liar) and try her best to make herself special, that stems (I think) from our father not paying any attention to her, and I think that is her problem. I think that there is a lot of other "sisters" out there that feel this way.

Personally, I have never had any experiences that I would call paranormal, although I don't diss anyone that has. I have no idea what is going on with any of that stuff because although I have read about it for years, I haven't had an y first-hand experience.
I mean, I have had some spooky experiences when I was a kid, but I think that is just imagination, and most have that, as in, afraid of the dark.

That's some weird stuff for sure, hopefully I never do,I have enough trouble just being me throughout the day.

I'm just glad that you don't live farther South, that is some really spooky Louisiana stuff down there. heheh

(I had almost zero sleep last night, so I hope that I didn't forget to reply on anything, I have a dog that is in the hospital (pancreatitis) and plus we had a HUGE thunderstorm last night. Thanks, Storm!)

a reply to: LSU2018
Yesterday I was going to say the same thing, the part in the movie where the kid's being abducted has to be one of the most horrifying scenes for a parent. That scene was exactly what I pictured!

Yeah, like you, I think that most of us would think, "outer space" too! I mean, even right now if I saw something, deep down I would think that. Later, after I had gathered my thoughts maybe I'd consider other avenues, but probably not at first, it's ingrained in me, I think.

I have read that others have had the 'vacuum feeling' like y'all did. That can make sense if you think about it, at least, trying to piece together what was going on, I have no idea what their 'drive' consisted of, whatever technology that was there could have many actions, vacuum being one of them, I guess. Why not?

a reply to: Vroomfondel
With half the country not knowing which bathroom to use is all I need to know. heheh
ALIENS!!!

Your experience is a typical one, seeing something, then by the time that you get your camera ready, it's gone!
I can only imagine that seeing something like that and trying to think, most will just be in awe, probably. I'm pretty good under pressure, I don't know what I would do if I saw something as you've described.
For one, I don't use a cell phone like most people, and my phone is NEVER on unless I turn it on to make a phone call, I hate cell phones, and phones in general. So there goes my big chance of getting anything in a picture.
(I carry a very nice camera and long lens most of the time though, so there's that)

"I want to keep that possibility alive."

I like that part too!

a reply to: mamabeth
Any or all of that is possible, or, not at all.
We don't really know what any of that is, we have our preferences, but if anyone here, or anywhere knows for sure, I'd like to see real proof.

I'm not singling you out, I'm just sayin' that without any concrete proof, all we have is our beliefs.

Personally, I don't know what to believe, it's all possible, and I ain't brainy enough to figure out what is going on, to be honest.

You will never believe until you see something yourself and even then you're never sure.
Super camera phone lenses??? O yeah.
Go outside tonight and take a picture of the full moon on your phone. (Which is bigger, brighter and not moving)
Post your picture on here.

a reply to: UKWO1Phot
I am a wildlife photographer, I do have the right equipment, but I knew as soon as you mentioned that about a moon and a cell phone, so I looked it up, because I have seen some really good cell phone shots, they have people that really are good at it. (I'm not 'cause I don't use a cell phone)
Now, of course I didn't go through all of these to see who did what, with what, but I have seen real proof before.
This is just for people that might not know what a cell phone can do.

Please click on IMAGES on Google, I have am having trouble (for some reason) making a link to it.

www.google.com...:1614373257887&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUK Ewios8iEuYjvAhUFa80KHRPgD5MQ_AUoAXoECBIQAw&biw=1280&bih=719