The reason why Religion is put to shame

a reply to: DISRAELI

LOLing at myself! Your comments are fair enough, and I have reached that point as well in subsequent comments I made.

I tend to agree that "belief" in this context has greater significance than simple acceptance of existence. It's not enough to "believe" there is a God, but that true belief -- faith -- requires accepting the principles and values of God and God's Kingdom.

So yes, the Devil may or may not believe in God's values, principles, purposes while knowing that God exists. Not much different than the Christians (or any faith) that say the words, but do not feel it, nor act upon it. We cannot put it into action what we do not feel in our hearts or know in our minds.

But I still put the Devil right along with all of God's creation, and at any point, even the Devil can turn it around. The Devil is a fallen angel, but an angel nevertheless.

a reply to: Boadicea
Sorry, I think i even got a little combative there. that's what the faith-works controversy does.

Part of the problem is that James himself, in my view, was not thinking clearly enough to express himself clearly. The real point of his "said faith/done faith" argument is "faith not followed by works gives itself away as not being real faith". And I'm convinced that the infamous "faith without works is dead" is actually a deliberate reversal of a "works without faith are dead" slogan (hinted at in Hebrews), which actually makes more sense as a spirit/body metaphor.

a reply to: DISRAELI

No apologies necessary! We're all doing our best just trying to understand.

And I'm convinced that the infamous "faith without works is dead" is actually a deliberate reversal of a "works without faith are dead" slogan (hinted at in Hebrews), which actually makes more sense as a spirit/body metaphor.

Yes -- you're right! "Works without faith are dead" makes much more sense. At least to me. It fits hand-in-hand with doing the right thing for the right reason. Doing the right thing for the wrong reason, or doing the wrong thing for the right reason, will backfire every time.

Thank you. This has opened new doors in my head to explore...

a reply to: DISRAELI

Be interested to see the Greek in relation to the word “works” as used in “The book of straw”, because I doubt that word in Greek would be a literal interpretation of the word “works”.

I guess I see works as a method of achieving something, Jesus achieved everything and I would expect every “work” a Christian undertakes after conversion is actually an expression of love and gratitude as opposed to works.

a reply to: Raggedyman
"Work" is ERGON which means what it means in English. It is business, employment, any act or deed, or the product of a productive act. The negative sense of the word is the direct result of Paul's remarks on the subject.
James is trying to say what you've just said. I think he felt that the followers of Paul in his time were focussed on saying the right things instead of doing them.
How well do you know Pilgrim's Progress? I think James' real target is "Talkative of Prating Row", who is "always talking about religion, but has no religion in his conversation".

a reply to: DISRAELI

As you stated, Strongs has it also as “deed” in different texts, hmmm
I think deed seems more suitable in context because a deed is more the fruit of the Spirit as opposed to a work for righteousness, but maybe I am just being petty

Been a long time since I read Pilgrims Progress though I can understand people talking and not doing

a reply to: Raggedyman
After the valley of the shadow of death, Christian meets Faithful, and then they both meet Talkative, which gves Christian a chance to warn Faithful against him.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Be 20 years ago since I read it, see if I can find it again

a reply to: Raggedyman
It might not be there, because modern editions tend to remove much of the chat and even some of the story. For example, your edition may not have the old giant Pope, who used to be a great menace to travellers, but has now lost all his teeth, so he can't do anything more than sit by the road growling at people.

I'm not a fan of "religion". I don't think Jesus was either.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I read that section as saying that one who has real, true faith will perform works because he has that faith. If faith is not accompanied by works, it is not real, true faith.

Let me try to put this into secular terms for those reading:

If I decide to buy a house, and I really, truly believe that I can swing buying the house I want, I will also go buy things for that house... maybe a new rug for a room, or some plants for landscaping. if I don't really, truly believe I can get that house, I won't buy anything for it, because deep down I will feel I might be wasting my money. I can say I'm going to buy that house all day long; my actions will show whether or not I really believe it.

Spiritually, that means if I ask something of God and I have faith that it will come to pass, I will begin doing "works" as though I already have it. Let's say I have a deadly disease, and I have asked God for a cure and God has let me know that it will be done as I asked. I'll make plans for things I am going to do in the future. I might make plans to help a neighbor out somehow, whereas if I don't truly have faith that I will be around to help him, I won't be making such plans.

We can see how much faith one has by the works they do. Without faith, those works mean nothing, and without works, that faith is just words we say trying to convince ourselves. It tales both, but of those two things faith is by far the most critical.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck
That first paragraph sounds good to me.

A metaphor that I've used in the past has been "the new bridge".
There is difference between merely saying "Of course I trust that bridge" and actually getting up to set foot on the planks and start walking across.

originally posted by: St0rD
I have to agree the way we have been controlled and Science pretends to be the answers to everything when reality is it probably only showcases 5% of what the universe is all about.

But it doesn’t say or imply that.

Science provides a framework and methodology of investigating, analysing, testing and proving hypotheses and theories for observed phenomena. That’s it. It attempts to find the truth. It also encourages debate and discussion and challenges, as this helps to either strengthen an argument or prove it is wrong.

One day they claim you need two doses of Covid19 vaccine to be fully protected and the other one claim the complete opposite when it fits their agenda. "Science" they say.

No, it’s not about an agenda.

Unlike religion, science can change and admit when its wrong and find better or more accurate ways of providing a solution.

If categorical evidence was provided that Jesus was not the son of God, had no magic powers and/or never existed, the religion as is stands would fall, technically. But it won’t, because religion is about faith and belief, not truth or fact. Religion cannot adapt to changes in truth.

Science can and does. So with advancements in technology, which in turn help us learn and understand more about what we observe, we find out that maybe 2doses is enough. Or for a different vaccine type, maybe not enough.

This is why science is great - it adapts, it changes with new learnings.

Religion cannot by the very definition of it being based on faith.

a reply to: St0rD

It is faith in the blood of Jesus Christ. He is the only sacrifice
that " Taketh away the sin of the whole world". That means
what he did for us provided the only way back to the Father.
And only he could've completed such a perfect plan. No man
could've even qualified because no man is with out sin. Also
Adam demonstrated perfectly why it had to be Jesus on the
cross. We are to cowardly to do what Christ did. Accepting that
you become sinless before God. The only difference between a
believer and a non believer? The non believer will be judged
by God wearing every filthy sin of his life on his soul. That soul
can only be condemned. The believer will also be judged.

But his soul will be wearing a white garment because the blood
has washed away ALL it's sin. This soul will not be condemned.
Man can do nothing to save his soul. But the Lamb of God is the
only thing humanity really has to smile about. Right up to the day
we die. No matter what life pummels us with.

"No one comes to the Father but by me!" Jesus Christ

a reply to: Boadicea
I began to reconsider this notion of deserving when I began to notice how it was being used to sell stuff to us. You deserve this or that so here is your gift of a sales price kind of thing. The exclusiveness of it, the specialness of it for some accomplishment superior awareness of paying attention to the commercial. It stuck me as a rather manipulative tool and then I extrapolated it to the whole notion of any of us ''deserving to go to Heaven''. So I pretty much have wiped that idea of deserving out of my head.

As for the free will you mention, I honestly see it as not so much a total package, rather as a potential package. For me this is not only the greatest gift but the only gift. Well, to avoid argument I will say ''the major gift''. But even that is a slight for without free will there is no ''me'' or us'' to even receive a ''gift''. For me, one of the greatest follies we can make is to take free will for granted. For me it IS the ''pearl of great price''. And that price is existential vigilance, not so much as having a repressive regime strip us of our rights, though sure, but rather vigilance of our minds. Of not taking our spiritual freedom for granted. By recognizing the mental traps of intertwined ''belief systems'' that can imprison our thoughts into redundancies that take us nowhere but in circles of unconscious behavior which of course then calcifies the thoughts that got us there in the first place.

Please forgive me Bo for incoherencies in all of that as I do not often attempt to express those thoughts.

It's a curious state we live in Bo. That we struggle not only ''with'' but ''against'' at the same time, this physical world. You say Natural Law and I agree and as well though our Spiritual Law, both of which we are still learning about as each and every day unfolds before us.

When our soul walks its path it will put to rest the illusion of truths in the pool of noise that cannot contain any truths. This must be done before we able to exist in the absolute truth, that being God. So its pointless trying to shake others that still exist firmly in that illusion. Because that illusion is stronger than your words.

Religion has been a double edged sword; abused by authoritarians and utilized for good by humanitarians. Too often used as justification for killing and enslaving others and just as often bringing unity, peace and a social order to it's adherents. Much of our greatest art, music and architecture owes it's existence to religious motivation. Even the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are based on biblical principles.

What we are seeing today is the abandonment of religion as rules for social cohesion which is why there is little to no resistance to tyranny and a blind acceptance of scientism as an explanation for the mysterious.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

Yes, "deserving" is used in some very questionable ways, and too often in the most judgmental way, but not always just ways. The criteria relied upon to say this person "deserves" this or these people "deserve" that, is usually very subjective. Especially who "deserves" to go to Heaven. I think of the story of the Widow's Mite and the Good Samaritan, as very simple examples of how the criteria for Heaven will be judged by Heavenly wisdom, that we do not and cannot know, so therefore not man's wisdom (or lack thereof).

The idea that some people deserve more than others -- both politically and Judeo-Christian -- sure plays into the divide-and-conquer battles. It's very easy to "win" an argument when you can debase or even dehumanize your opponent.

And I know you'll understand when I say I hope that makes sense! So no worries about your own "incoherencies." It isn't easy trying to put matters of the Spirit into earthly terms.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
Religion has been a double edged sword; abused by authoritarians and utilized for good by humanitarians. Too often used as justification for killing and enslaving others and just as often bringing unity, peace and a social order to it's adherents. Much of our greatest art, music and architecture owes it's existence to religious motivation. Even the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are based on biblical principles.

What we are seeing today is the abandonment of religion as rules for social cohesion which is why there is little to no resistance to tyranny and a blind acceptance of scientism as an explanation for the mysterious.

One problem is that major religion occupying a overwhelming majority of society suggests that "good" is a business relationship. There is a purpose for good, it is labor conducted to receive a wage. True good is rarely acknowledged or rewarded and doing it for such reward is not aligned with the principles of being a good person. Being good can be described as recognizing advantage and disadvantage and accepting the risk of disadvantage for the sake of someone else succeeding. To put it a different way, nobody plans to go to heaven because being a good person is an impulse and not a strategy.

a reply to: DISRAELI

A much better metaphor than I had.

TheRedneck