Finally! Forensic Election Audit in Maricopa County (AZ) Begins Next Week

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Nunyabizisit

When the vote tallies are close it makes sense for a recount. In most situations it means less than 1%. This is not that.

The Ninjas seem to be quite ignorant of proper chain of custody and other protocols.

I am much more interested in count and examination of physical ballots than dominion or cyber issues.

This has been done prior to the Ninjas efforts.

No it has not.

Earlier 'audits' were recount only, and only included a very small number of ballots (exact number is somewhere in this thread)




As for chain of custody, I suspect you got that from msm, who are still pretending that proper chain of custody docs existed in the first place.

While auditors brought in multiple witnesses, on camera, to show that they did not exist - prior to opening or moving any ballot boxes.

Will have to wait for final report to know more on this.

a reply to: Phage

Just noticed your edit:


"The idea here seems to be 'keep looking until we find what we are looking for.''


I share that concern regarding the cyber & dominion portions of the audit. Can't really form an opinion on this until they produce final report.


I have no concern at all with the ballot evaluation portion. The ballots are the ballots. They have been carefully monitored on high res video under watchful eye of multi party observers and law enforcement.

And they will still exist after audit completion for anyone else to confirm or debunk.

My 'hope' is that there are more than 11k biden ballots not physically present, but counted by dominion, as that would make the more challenging concerns less significant. May also get additional confirmation if they can match up 11k+ duplicate biden ballots.

Less messy that way, but an outcome that many others wouldn't like much.

Either way, not much to go on until we can scrutinize actual audit results.



ETA:

It's also possible that audit team reports back to senate that accurate audit is not possible for x, y & z reasons.

(Where xyz = almost anything other than county refusing to comply with subpoenas)

An unfortunate, but understandable and acceptable potential outcome


Understandable since this IS the first full audit conducted anywhere in U.S. since motor voter.

Acceptable as long as this audit results in changes to make future audits easier and more reliable.



My 25 year old goal is for significant (every ballot) audits of every state's most populous counties (and random selection of smaller counties) after every 2 year federal election.

My 3 month old goal is that the Maricopa audit provides a path for this, even if current audit isn't technically possible in the end.


But my personal 'hope' is that current audit shows enough easily provable errors or fraud to alter 2020 results, and compel most other states to actually look at their ballots.

Wow. This is rather ugly:

Stat e Senator Michelle Ugenti Rita Has TGP Reporter Removed From Trump Rally And ARRESTED after She is Booed Off Stage (VIDEO)

In nutshell, Senator Ugenti Rita is the AZ Senator who killed the election reform bills because she said that Senator Townsend did not follow proper procedure and go through her on certain matters. Apparently folks have been paying attention, because she was booed by the audience.

After she left the stage, Jordan Conradsen followed her, asking her questions about the election reform bills and being booed. She did not answer his questions, but did ask for him to be removed for harassment, and he was then cuffed and detained in back of a police vehicle.

At some point, Conradsen called Senator Townsend, who came to his rescue, and he was released by police at his vehicle, and told not to come back to the venue... ever.

Senator Ugenti Rita then went on a Twitter rampage, singing her own praises while knocking the audit and the election reform bills... and proclaiming herself the next Secretary of State... Michelle Ugenti-Rita Twitter

There is a video at the link of Jordan Conradsen asking her questions as she walks away and he follows her. At the 2:55 minute mark, when Conradsen asks her if she is asking for him to be arrested, the smug smile on her face says it all...

originally posted by: jimmyx
all of you do realize that “The audit” is being use to generate outrage regardless of outcome

When a request for government transparency generates outrage, something is very wrong.

a reply to: Phage

The idea here seems to be "keep looking until we find what we are looking for."

At least you didn't say, "keep looking until we manufacture what we are looking for." I'll appreciate that much.

But the problem I have with this position is that it's just a personal opinion based on nothing except a built-in confirmation bias that there was no cheating or even incompetence or human error.

And I say that knowing full well that I have my own built-in confirmation bias: We cannot trust the critters!!! Everything government does needs to be done in the public eye and with public scrutiny!!!

If I'm wrong, then the audit will prove me wrong. If you're wrong, nothing is done, nothing is found, nothing is proven or disproven and the corruption continues.

But the one thing that all of this has proven is that we need more transparency and more accountability in our elections. If election reform such as Finchem has proposed is implemented, we won't need these audits, we won't need to wonder, we will know.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Phage

The idea here seems to be "keep looking until we find what we are looking for."

But the problem I have with this position is that it's just a personal opinion based on nothing except a built-in confirmation bias that there was no 1- cheating or even 2- incompetence or 3- human error.

I agree with everything you've said, but i think i should point out why some are taking exception to the framing of election "fraud" as Trump would have everyone believe. I edited your quote above because:

2 and 3 do not indicate fraud, only 1 does. If 2 and 3 are the reasons that any significant errors occurred, then they obviate themself whereas number 1 was intentional and DOES suggest fraud.

a reply to: alphabetaone

I agree with everything you've said, but i think i should point out why some are taking exception to the framing of election "fraud" as Trump would have everyone believe. I edited your quote above because:

2 and 3 do not indicate fraud, only 1 does. If 2 and 3 are the reasons that any significant errors occurred, then they obviate themself whereas number 1 was intentional and DOES suggest fraud.

True enough... but that's a sideshow, and only incidental to the big picture. Trump is one candidate in one election. This is soooooooooooooo much bigger than Trump.

It's a crying shame that too many Trump supporters cannot separate Trump -- and their support for Trump -- from the equation, because it's self-serving and short sighted.

But it's just as much a crying shame that the non-Trump supporters cannot separate Trump -- and their contempt for Trump AND his supporters -- from the equation, for the same reasons.

It's not even a partisan matter, despite all the crying and whining to the contrary. We have an overwhelmingly Republican Board of Supervisors (only one Democrat), which is fighting the Republican-majority Senate.

And especially in Arizona, where there are more Independents than either Republicans OR Democrats, it's especially frustrating (and insulting) that everything is viewed from the left/right paradigm.

originally posted by: Boadicea


But it's just as much a crying shame that the non-Trump supporters cannot separate Trump -- and their contempt for Trump AND his supporters -- from the equation, for the same reasons.

Im not sure i agree with that. I know i personally do, but the truth is that because of Trump's continued insistence of "massive fraud", and "fraud like the world has never seen", its become repetitive nonsensical rhetoric in the far fringe groups minds'. And they tend to manifest in places just like this.

originally posted by: alphabetaone

originally posted by: Boadicea


But it's just as much a crying shame that the non-Trump supporters cannot separate Trump -- and their contempt for Trump AND his supporters -- from the equation, for the same reasons.

Im not sure i agree with that. I know i personally do, but the truth is that because of Trump's continued insistence of "massive fraud", and "fraud like the world has never seen", its become repetitive nonsensical rhetoric in the far fringe groups minds'. And they tend to manifest in places just like this.

Have you not noticed that msm and democrats are doing same x10,000 24/7?

While actively censoring Trump & supporters?

While also doing everything possible to keep anyone from actually looking at the ballots?

Democrats could have ended this at any moment since 11/3, by simply agreeing to look at the ballots.

But here we are.

With democrats blaming Trump for the actions of democrats.

Again.

Its funny, we have had fraud in elections for as long as there have been elections, and in the past when it has been found out we have taken steps to fix it.

Now all of a sudden to even ask the question seems to paint you as a nut case, considering how everything is going electronic and some places have even allowed voter machines and tabulation machines to be connected to the internet, audits should be a non-partisan issue, we should all want to see that we are a Republic, not a banana republic.

Who gives a toss about trump, we all have a vested interest in a free, fair and secure election.

Considering the trillions we pissed away in the last couple decades a few million to verify an election is like finding a 10 spot in your pants on laundry day easy spending cash.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Nunyabizisit

When the vote tallies are close it makes sense for a recount. In most situations it means less than 1%. This is not that.

The Ninjas seem to be quite ignorant of proper chain of custody and other protocols.

I am much more interested in count and examination of physical ballots than dominion or cyber issues.

This has been done prior to the Ninjas' efforts.

The idea here seems to be "keep looking until we find what we are looking for."

can you list all the mistakes they have made thus far?

a reply to: alphabetaone

Im not sure i agree with that. I know i personally do, but the truth is that because of Trump's continued insistence of "massive fraud", and "fraud like the world has never seen", its become repetitive nonsensical rhetoric in the far fringe groups minds'. And they tend to manifest in places just like this.

It doesn't matter. There will always be outliers and fringes and extremists on every side and every direction. We cannot stop that. We can only stay focused on what is relevant, what is not, and what to do about it.

Thousands of citizens have come forward both as voters and as election workers attesting to serious issues. We the public have seen very questionable and troubling actions and incidents for ourselves -- before, during and after the election. Not least of these, in Maricopa County and Arizona, are the elected officials refusing to comply with a legal and binding subpoena, and refusing to cooperate with the Senate ordered audit in the most obnoxious and contemptuous manner.

This is and always was soooooooooooooo much bigger than Trump.

originally posted by: Boadicea

This is and always was soooooooooooooo much bigger than Trump.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think it will take massive cheating from the right to trigger any action in this regard from the current opposition. it's hugely partisan, and even people who used to have some common sense are finding ways to be angry and disparaging on a process that hasn't even finished, and did it's work in full view of cameras and a live feed to the world.

When and if the results are given, they should be looked at very closely, and if disagreement is had, it should be checked into by people from all sides, and the facts will be factual. It's hard to ask for more than that, even if the group doing the work is new to the work.

But the push back continues to look like guilt hiding behind anger and obfuscation. Everyone should want this, except the one's who broke the law.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Nunyabizisit

When the vote tallies are close it makes sense for a recount. In most situations it means less than 1%. This is not that.

The Ninjas seem to be quite ignorant of proper chain of custody and other protocols.

I am much more interested in count and examination of physical ballots than dominion or cyber issues.

This has been done prior to the Ninjas' efforts.

The idea here seems to be "keep looking until we find what we are looking for."

What they're probably looking for is a way to confirm that each ballot was, or was not, actually sent out through the mail.

That's the vulnerability of the mail in ballot voting system.

They tried using EB32 and EB33, but now Maricopa county is saying those don't actually tell us which ballots were or were not put in the mail and/or issued to a voter who showed up in person to claim it.

It's a little bit frightening that there isn't some kind of well kept, and proof worthy record being kept of that.....

originally posted by: Nunyabizisit

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Nunyabizisit
No you didn't:

(1100 for AZ)

But what does 220 have to do with anything?

2% of what would be required to change results.

A common(ish) decision point to investigate further with recount or traditional (partial) audit.

Maybe up to 6% if traditional audit could explain the errors, and errors appear to be controlled.

Never much more than that without full forensic audit to ensure accurate results.

Arizona already has full forensic audit in most populous county.

A common hallmark of election fraud is for the results to overwhelmingly favor the winner.

An extremely close race could be taken as evidence against fraud, because it's very hard to fraudulently manufacture exactly the right number of ballots to tip a close race. (Unless the counters themselves are complicit and unmonitored.)

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Nunyabizisit


When the vote tallies are close it makes sense for a recount. In most situations it means less than 1%. This is not that.

The Ninjas seem to be quite ignorant of proper chain of custody and other protocols.

I am much more interested in count and examination of physical ballots than dominion or cyber issues.

This has been done prior to the Ninjas' efforts.

The idea here seems to be "keep looking until we find what we are looking for."

"a reply to: Phage"
can you list all the mistakes they have made thus far?

That is a good question! I'd really like to know the answer to that as well! I sure hope Phage answers it and doesn't just ignore it. I wanna know!

originally posted by: network dude

...even people who used to have some common sense are finding ways to be angry and disparaging on a process that hasn't even finished, and did it's work in full view of cameras and a live feed to the world.

It's been very frustrating and discouraging to see the excuses and denials made for so much bad behavior that we know happened, while so quick to criticize and vilify the auditors and pro-audit officials and supporters. I am livid at our Board of Supervisors. The fought the good fight, had their day in court, and they lost. Now do your damn duty and comply with the subpoenas and cooperate with the auditors! Their outright nastiness and obnoxiousness is contemptible.

And while the auditors have made everything visible 24/7 in real time for anyone and everyone, I do wish they would have released more information about their procedures and processes sooner, and there's still plenty they aren't telling us. I understand their contract was for no results to be released until the final report, but much has changed. I think a preliminary report to the public is in order. That's not too much to expect.

Especially with the reports about Ken Bennett circulating with no official word from anyone... just crickets.

When and if the results are given, they should be looked at very closely, and if disagreement is had, it should be checked into by people from all sides, and the facts will be factual. It's hard to ask for more than that, even if the group doing the work is new to the work.

Of course -- that's a given! And then the numbers should speak for themselves.

But the push back continues to look like guilt hiding behind anger and obfuscation. Everyone should want this, except the one's who broke the law.

After the Board of Supervisors Chairman tweeted that the Senate should "be prepared to defend it in court," he pretty much guaranteed that wrongdoing has been found. He knows what's coming. And I'm betting dollars to donuts that the adjudicated ballots are a BIG problem...

a reply to: carewemust

Yes.

a reply to: Boadicea


Wendy Rodgers spoke up tonight on bird net:


"There is a lot of noise out there. Here is the bottom line:

DECERTIFY NOW - RECALL THE ELECTORS

Arizona’s certification was clearly not accurate."

a reply to: Nunyabizisit

Wendy is sure making a lot of noise herself... and I don't know what to make of it. By speaking out before the final report, she's violating the NDA in spirit, if not in letter. By calling for the de-certification of the electors/election, she's contradicting Fann's promise that the results would not be used to change the outcome of the election. As just one of many Senators, I doubt Wendy signed and is personally and individually liable for the contract Fann agreed to with Cyber Ninjas, and Wendy's certainly not personally bound to a verbal promise by Fann, but why would Wendy rock the boat? Why not just wait for the results of the audit?

I prefer when Wendy is just calling for further action against the Supervisors... that's quite reasonable. The rest I'm not so sure.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Nunyabizisit



Agreed.

I wasn't aware she had been making noise again recently, so was surprised by bird message on Sunday (saw it on gp first, I don't play with birds myself)

Suspect 'noise' referred to recent audit 'story', but just a complete guess.

I also wonder if NDA is still going to be followed after several 'incidents' and 'stories' like this in past week.