Why do People See What They See?

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

"Mostly harmless" then. (another DA reference).

I wish American's had more of the 'British Politeness'
though. Honestly I admire much of the British "Stiff
upper lip".

on the other hand, there have been fist fights in
your parliament, right?

There are true anomalies. But you have to discard all the useless data first. Data which is often impossible to ignore because of the 'people' problem....

1) People make stuff up. For fun, attention or financial gain. Sad but true. Although the modern internet has made it more difficult for these folks in some ways because of the availability of better data to fact check celestial events and track spacecraft and aircraft movements. There are also more UFO video hoaxes today because of our improved technology too.

2) People mistake things. Those who believe UFOs are something supernatural or alien often cite people like pilots as "trained observers". But what observational training do these observers get? It's a hollow appeal to authority.

There was even a thread on here by a pilot who saw the Space X satellites some months ago. He'd obviously never been trained to spot the satellites or even heard of them. But he accepted the explanation. Others like to not be seen to be a fool. Or want to tell their UFO story at parties. So omit details or change facts and their story becomes unfalsifiable (see No.1).

3) People suffer illusions & delusions. Around 1 in 20 people suffer from delusions or hallucinations at some time in their life. That doesn't include drug induced ones either. Some people are nuts for sure. But for others its a rare and often one off event.

4) People like Mysteries Hence the rise of the UFOtainer. The talking heads on podcasts and TV shows. The conference speakers and booksellers. All tell a good story. Many only have one or two stories as well. Solving them would be a death to their career. So the mystery must be preserved. Sometimes these stories have long been debunked but then a new generation comes along and we have to suffer all over again.

5) The UFO Bucket This is something I think James Carrion once described. It's where anything and everything gets tossed in this 'UFO bucket' by people with fringe beliefs. So it's not focused on Unidentified Flying Objects at all. It becomes about Cattle mutilations, crop circles, remote viewing, orbs, near death experience, communications from so called Non-Human intelligences, New Age Religions, doing hard drugs and occult mysticism that has got us all nowhere to date. The bucket is overflowing with loosely and even unrelated sewage. But 'people' are still chucking more and more into it.

There is no actual all encompassing UFO Phenomenon. It's a loose, unrelated, mish mash collection of various fringe topics that 'people' throw together because of safety in the numbers. To make it seem like there is such a volume of strange unsolvable events that there must be something 'mysterious' to it all, and that their single belief system is the only acceptable answer.

However, we should accept that there may well be a completely rational, natural explanation for every single UFO case ever reported. A null hypothesis if you like.

Now that doesn't mean that nuts and bolts alien spaceships haven't visited the planet once or twice. Or that dimensions beyond our human capability to perceive them exist. Or even that stranger stuff isn't being witnessed.

But after studying this subject for a decade in more depth (rather than superficially before) I am convinced that many people do not want an answer unless it fits their preconceived 'supernatural/alien' belief. So nothing is thrown away. Everything is preserved for fear that the null hypothesis might be the truth.

There's also a general laziness to not do the work by so called researchers. Everyone expects the US government holds the UFO secrets and won't tell the truth. Someone there probably does know a bit more than the general public. But far less than the expected disclosure that UFOtainers and TTSA keep shouting for.

Maybe what came out in the past, especially these last three years, is all there is? And so ufology will just go in circles. Trotting out the stories, proffering endless new theories. In 20 years time we'll probably be no further down the line.


TLDR - There is no single UFO phenomenon. Every case is a separate event. People are the problem because because they tell lies, make mistakes and will often pursue a truth that may not exist.

a reply to: mirageman

I'm on the same page as you 90%, as I've said
in other posts. Thanks for posting here.

We may never have a meeting of the minds on
the 10%, but that's fine with me.

You have contributed so much more than I have,
to the rationalization of UFOlogy.. I salute you.

However I keep plugging away on the 10% you
don't study.. and I hang onto nothing that
does not deserve it.

For example, as I said elsewhere, i do not find any
particular explanatory power in the IDH. I don't
care if JV created it.. it was amazing for the time,
but it's become dated.

Still.. my hats off to him.. in genuine research,
or even good 'spitballing', people stand on each
other's shoulders; each generation building on
the previous.

I'm also QUITE fine with the NULL hypothesis.

I don't care personally whether physical UFOs
exist..

I don't care personally whether strange energy/
quantum effects exist.. though some of those
effects are becoming hard science.

I don't care if I live.

I don't care if I die.

I don't care if I'm associated with something
transpersonal.

I don't care if I'm NOT associated with something
transpersonal.

All that said, there are still plenty of tires to kick
in research.. some of it surfacing as 'UFOlogy'
some not.

As for your response, I in particular liked this part:

There's also a general laziness to not do the work by so called researchers. Everyone expects the US government holds the UFO secrets and won't tell the truth. Someone there probably does know a bit more than the general public. But far less than the expected disclosure that UFOtainers and TTSA keep shouting for.

It's the 'lazy reality bubble' people keep around themselves..
I've been posting about that too.

Thanks!

Kev

Why do people see different shaped ufos?
Maybe there are multiple species and multiple purposes.
If the US navy could deploy a fleet on an alien planet through wormhole technology what would the locals think?

They might describe the scene as huge flying birds that shoot fire from the rear, monster beasts floating on the water rising several stories tall and that doesn’t even cover much at all of the different crafts.

a reply to: orionthehunter

So when two people stand shoulder to shoulder,
and one person sees a dramatic UFO, right in
their face 30 feet away, and the other person
sees a helicopter or nothing at all, how does
your theory handle that?

I'm not mocking or denigrating.. I'm asking..

Thanks.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

PTSD doesn't necessarily mean anything to do with dislike, or war.

Childbirth, among many things, can cause PTSD.

The kicker is that it relates to a traumatic experience - which in this case would be the extraordinary event of seeing something not of this earth, and the brain needing to make sense of it, even if it is perceived as benevolent.

a reply to: neformore

but again, how do you explain people who thought
they saw 'brownies', set food out for them and
liked the little fellers?

PS:

If to some degree you are alluding to the known fact
that the brain tends to fill things in in an effort to
understand things or comfort a person. I certainly
concur that does happen, quite frequently.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: orionthehunter

So when two people stand shoulder to shoulder,
and one person sees a dramatic UFO, right in
their face 30 feet away, and the other person
sees a helicopter or nothing at all, how does
your theory handle that?

I'm not mocking or denigrating.. I'm asking..

Thanks.

Its interesting that a bunch of schoolkids all saw the same thing i.e. Westall. Craft and occupants. Kids havnt had much life experience yet so their ideas of reality are basically all the same. I wonder if a lot of teachers had been there would they all have seen the same craft? The kids would not have thought about ufo's and aliens before yet they all drew basically the same craft. So what they saw was not skewed by pre-conceived notions of ufo's.

Is this a reason as to why ufo's seem to be interested in schools quite a bit?
That schoolkids are like a blank page?

a reply to: SecretKnowledge

Good question.

*Sometimes* everyone sees the same thing.

I guess the point of this post is asking why they
OFTEN do not. But yes, sometimes people see
the same thing.

Definitely worth investigating.

I've heard some folks completely dismissing
Westfall has having no merit or anything
unusual happening.

I've not studied it in detail.

Kev

Great thread, great discussion, and great points. I'm with you on a lot of this, Kev, and I've often thought of the same things. In fact, I've thought of it a lot.

It's just a pile of thought experiments, but I've even played with the idea that perhaps most "nuts and bolts" UFO sightings, aside from the ones that are most likely made up or mistaken, could be one or several of the following, which may or may not give some degree of explanation for why so many "ships" or "UFOs" look wildly different:

1.
Drones. Alien drones. Hold on, stop laughing, let me explain. The notion that somebody (ET, that you??) is onboard these craft sounds silly to me, if the piles of dirty water, simple tools, and bad ideas known as "humans" are capable of producing effective drones, unmanned spacecraft, etc, Right Now, As Is, then why wouldn't ET, far more advanced, have developed some cool, fancy drone technology? No need for anti-gravity cabins for the occupants during those frequently-observed, zig-zagging UFO movements. All that's on board is likely a multitude of fancy cameras.
This would explain some different shapes. Different drones for different missions. Small ones for high maneuverability missions. Big ones for long term, low fuel consumption observational missions. Airplane shaped ones to feel out the atmosphere, etc etc etc.

2.
Probes. Pretty much like drones, but perhaps not having to obey Earth's laws of physics. They may penetrate spacetime in some way for some given time to "take a picture" or a sample of the compositions of this world, before quickly retreating back to their place of projection/origin. That would explain things like orbs, points of light, etc. It would also possibly tie into some sightings that involve physical effects (flash burns, rashes, migraines, and so on), as the "picture" or "sample" taken may involve some form of radiation.

3.
Human stuff. Area 51 is still a thing.

None of this, and I mean none of this, explains why two people could be shoulder to shoulder and see two different things, though. That's just down to misinterpretation between the two people of what was probably some guy with a quad copter who tied a string of lights to it for fun, and started flying it in spiraling motions for his amusement. Or some early weird VTOL jet experiment from the military back in the 50s. Or something. Who knows.

All I know is, (one of) the biggest boundary(boundaries) between making UFOs into IFOs (identified flying objects, lol), is people and their honesty.

Once again, great thread and thanks for the thoughts.

a reply to: servovenford

You are most welcome.

I just want the conversation to open up a bit more,
dislodging us from hardened battle trenches!

I guess on the alien drone/probe/ship thing, I'm very
dubious for a whole raft of reasons.. I imagine i'll
summarize those again in this post, if it goes long
enough.

How about heading over to the "Paperclip Maximizer"
thread, and tell me why I think that whole concept
has massive implications for UFOlogy?

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

My point being these were kids that all saw the same thing. Their minds are blank pages?

The “shoulder to shoulder” question is most important. Not only see different objects but one sees it and the other does not see anything!

This suggests that in addition to any cloaking tech that the UAP occupants are using the human brain systems to keep the memories from forming. If it is short term memory only where you have memories of an encounter then you will replace them rather efficiently. Probably why people seem dazed with a genuine encounter.

Psychology, physiology, what expectations are already there, and what is just ignored because a person doesn’t want to believe in such possibilities all seem to be in play.

Add in technology and you have even more tools.

And that is just physical objects. If they are energy or something that is a different fishing net!

But the question is important to categorize each different result.

Great discussion points!!

a reply to: SecretKnowledge

Oh I got your point.

It's worth pondering 'the innocence of youth' as a factor.

I guess some people get more excited by some cases, and
less excited by other cases. It's all about personal bias.

For example, Roswell means nothing to me. Phoenix
lights means nothing to me, Cash-Landrum means
nothing to me, and for whatever reason, Westfall
and similar occurrences mean nothing to me.

Should they be investigated? Sure.

Should I investigate them? Maybe. Maybe not.

None of them provide anything solid, that I know
of, and ALSO don't evidence the 'Oz factor', so
there's nothing there to investigate, FOR ME.

If others come up with something real, that would
be wonderful.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I guess the point of this post is asking why they OFTEN do not. But yes, sometimes people see the same thing....

What cases are there where people do not actually see the same things?

Some specific examples with witness reports to compare would help here.

a reply to: mirageman

You'd need to dig through all of JV's books, where a number of
the references exist. There are a variety of other researchers
who have documented similar reports.

I've never collated all the reports, as human perception is
flawed, and nobody believes people's UFO reports in any
case.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of any of my points, with
any vigor either.

Just chatting.

Now.. if there was a serious research effort underway, with
us being on the same team and trying to accomplish something
rather than just flap our gums, there would be a reason to
compile that list.

THIS is ufology; regretfully.. why nothing is ever accomplished.

That said, I'll keep your request in mind. It might not be that
difficult to scare them up.. i've seen many such reports over
the years.

ALSO. There's some posts on ATS, where some of our own
members have written posts about how they saw something
amazing as part of a group, but later their family members had
their memories edited out, or later said that they had only seen
a helicopter or something of that nature. Didn't GUT have such
a thing? several other members?

In RFI, didn't Penniston go all ga ga over what he saw, and
JB who was not that far away said he saw nothing but a light?

If you are dubious about this assertion, that this sort of thing
is commonly asserted, perhaps you could look into it too?
We could start a new thread and people could post to it?

If it doesn't pass your BS test, then perhaps you could
share that analysis with us?

Kev

a reply to: mirageman

Subjectivity of color perception

Nothing categorically distinguishes the visible spectrum of electromagnetic radiation from invisible portions of the broader spectrum. In this sense, color is not a property of electromagnetic radiation, but a feature of visual perception by an observer. Furthermore, there is an arbitrary mapping between wavelengths of light in the visual spectrum and human experiences of color. Although most people are assumed to have the same mapping, the philosopher John Locke recognized that alternatives are possible, and described one such hypothetical case with the "inverted spectrum" thought experiment. For example, someone with an inverted spectrum might experience green while seeing 'red' (700 nm) light, and experience red while seeing 'green' (530 nm) light. Synesthesia (or ideasthesia) provides some atypical but illuminating examples of subjective color experience triggered by input that is not even light, such as sounds or shapes. The possibility of a clean dissociation between color experience from properties of the world reveals that color is a subjective psychological phenomenon.

en.wikipedia.org...

I don't wanna say ghosts, too... but... yeah, probably ghosts as well...

Color perception is a topic I could ramble on for eons, a friend of mine is 'red-green-blind'. I always thought he should hash out his entire color palette to explain what's different, and how, but then life happened and he's not the artsy type.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Yes, it's called the hard problem of consciousness.. Qualia..
if two people see the same thing, do they REALLY see the
same thing?

Now RG color blindness is an interesting twist.

Rather like how Phantom Limb syndrome pointed research
in new directions for the central motor gyrus I believe.

I AM wondering if it's worthwhile to start a new thread
about UFOs and perception.. but I don't have the passion
for this subject that I once did.. not even 5% of it.

But if others wanted to actively participate..

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: mirageman

ALSO. There's some posts on ATS, where some of our own
members have written posts about how they saw something
amazing, but their family members had their memories
edited out, or later said that they had only seen a helicopter
or something of that nature.

Just want to back you up on the above, Kev...I definitely recall (and I don't read on any other forums) reading such posts on ATS -

- and remember one in particular, where a member described walking on the beach with his brother one night and suddenly sighting a UFO hovering close enough that he was certain it really was something 'unidentifiable', but his brother either couldn't or wouldn't see the thing..

a reply to: lostgirl

yes, thank you.

I do see some value, if we could attract relatively
woo-less people to also look into this, that might
be good for everyone.

I'm game for anyone and everyone to find those
references.

I guess we'd need to examine different cognitive
categories as well.

The most amazing-appearance cases are like in
South America if I recall, where the two brothers
stood shoulder to shoulder and saw such different
things.. that's the first one I'm trying to track down.

Or as you've said, one person sees something amazing
point blank, and the other person sees nothing at all.


Then there are cases where a group of people see
a 'UFO' and talk about it as a 'UFO', but later on,
perhaps everyone except one vocal person says
they don't remember such a thing even happening..
even if it was point black in their face.

In other cases, if pressed, some of the people start
to remember the incident, but are very uncomfortable..
and again the next day, will even say not only did they
not see it the first time, but don't recall the previous
day's discussion either!

I'm sure there are other cognitive buckets we could
put these cases into..

Then of course there are 'screen memories' but those
are generally tied to disreputable things like regression
hypnosis and people who are certain UFOs are demons.

But it's a cognitive category as well.

In any case perception is the key thing here...

and perception is SO murky.