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The mask narrative breaks down due to TDS
page: 4share:
a reply to: JusticeIsComing
True.
Science is what science is. And science does not indicate that masks help. Oh, in a laboratory they might, certainly they do in an operating room where personnel are trained to use them properly and they are certified/properly fitted. But in the real world?
I just got back from town. I spent a little while watching people moving to and fro, both inside and outside the stores. As I watched, I envisioned the potential virus, assuming for the moment, everyone was infected, as a little cloud ranging from light pink (minor contamination) to dark red (major contamination). Every time someone adjusted their mouths, it would be a red cloud emanating from their mask. Every time someone exited a store and whipped that mask off, it would be a large dark red cloud. The rest of the time they would be emanating a very light pink, almost imperceptible.
Then I envisioned what it might be like without masks. Every person was exhaling a continuous light pink, not as light as before, but still light. Every cough or sneeze would be a large red cloud of infection spewing up to 20 feet.
The difference I saw after watching that was that with masks, areas began to form that were highly, highly infectious. These were concentrated around every exit from a store, and since the entries and exits are close together, they also covered the entrances. Inside the store, the effect was pretty similar, with the masked version being a little lighter pink than the unmasked. Occasionally there would be darker pink areas where people adjusted their masks, but the viral load was pretty much identical overall.
My conclusion? Wearing masks was actually increasing the viral load overall for everyone entering or exiting the store. All shoppers either entered or exited the store while I was watching.
Now, that's not a "double-blind, randomized scientific study" but it is an explanation of how the use of face masks can lead to an increased viral load in everyone. The use of masks on a constant basis will always lead to people wanting out of the things as soon as possible and that will give high concentrations of the virus in those areas where most people remove them. Even surgeons rip those damn things off when they exit an operating room! That mask has been catching viral particles, and this is assuming that the masks work as described, ever since they were first donned, and as soon as they are removed all those viral particles are released. It's like walking around picking up garbage... yeah, you're cleaning the place, but it you don't throw the garbage in a trash can you will eventually drop a whole mess of it right there where everyone can see it. In that analogy, we don't have much of a way to throw the viral particles away. They simply lose the ability to infect over time depending on where they are. All we can do is drop a while lot of viral loading right where others will be walking.
If anything, the masks are helping to spread the virus in larger doses. I can actually see where masks are increasing hospitalizations since the viral loads people are exposed to are more concentrated.
Now, if someone is high-risk and the caretaker wears a mask when interacting with them, that would be another story. There will not be a train of people constantly coming and going, each one dropping a viral load in the path of the next. One or two people with fitted masks catching that viral load, then releasing it outside (I would suggest doing so several feet from the door) is not going to make the same kind of mess as a store exit will. It will keep the viral load low around the high-risk individual, again assuming the mask is fitted and not constantly adjusted. It will also keep any viral load very minor around the high-risk person.
But trying to isolate everyone from everyone with face masks? Not only impractical, but potentially worse than doing nothing.
TheRedneck
Science doesn't care if you agree with it or not.
True.
Science is what science is. And science does not indicate that masks help. Oh, in a laboratory they might, certainly they do in an operating room where personnel are trained to use them properly and they are certified/properly fitted. But in the real world?
I just got back from town. I spent a little while watching people moving to and fro, both inside and outside the stores. As I watched, I envisioned the potential virus, assuming for the moment, everyone was infected, as a little cloud ranging from light pink (minor contamination) to dark red (major contamination). Every time someone adjusted their mouths, it would be a red cloud emanating from their mask. Every time someone exited a store and whipped that mask off, it would be a large dark red cloud. The rest of the time they would be emanating a very light pink, almost imperceptible.
Then I envisioned what it might be like without masks. Every person was exhaling a continuous light pink, not as light as before, but still light. Every cough or sneeze would be a large red cloud of infection spewing up to 20 feet.
The difference I saw after watching that was that with masks, areas began to form that were highly, highly infectious. These were concentrated around every exit from a store, and since the entries and exits are close together, they also covered the entrances. Inside the store, the effect was pretty similar, with the masked version being a little lighter pink than the unmasked. Occasionally there would be darker pink areas where people adjusted their masks, but the viral load was pretty much identical overall.
My conclusion? Wearing masks was actually increasing the viral load overall for everyone entering or exiting the store. All shoppers either entered or exited the store while I was watching.
Now, that's not a "double-blind, randomized scientific study" but it is an explanation of how the use of face masks can lead to an increased viral load in everyone. The use of masks on a constant basis will always lead to people wanting out of the things as soon as possible and that will give high concentrations of the virus in those areas where most people remove them. Even surgeons rip those damn things off when they exit an operating room! That mask has been catching viral particles, and this is assuming that the masks work as described, ever since they were first donned, and as soon as they are removed all those viral particles are released. It's like walking around picking up garbage... yeah, you're cleaning the place, but it you don't throw the garbage in a trash can you will eventually drop a whole mess of it right there where everyone can see it. In that analogy, we don't have much of a way to throw the viral particles away. They simply lose the ability to infect over time depending on where they are. All we can do is drop a while lot of viral loading right where others will be walking.
If anything, the masks are helping to spread the virus in larger doses. I can actually see where masks are increasing hospitalizations since the viral loads people are exposed to are more concentrated.
Now, if someone is high-risk and the caretaker wears a mask when interacting with them, that would be another story. There will not be a train of people constantly coming and going, each one dropping a viral load in the path of the next. One or two people with fitted masks catching that viral load, then releasing it outside (I would suggest doing so several feet from the door) is not going to make the same kind of mess as a store exit will. It will keep the viral load low around the high-risk individual, again assuming the mask is fitted and not constantly adjusted. It will also keep any viral load very minor around the high-risk person.
But trying to isolate everyone from everyone with face masks? Not only impractical, but potentially worse than doing nothing.
TheRedneck
We found a restaurant tonight where no one was wearing masks, including servers. It was beautiful!
If we were afraid or immuno-compromised, you know what we would have done? Stayed home.
Back before mandatory masking— March-April-May— that’s how it was. People scared of Covid wore a mask or stayed home. The rest of us lived our lives and took the risks we saw fit.
Mask mandates and sex is saying that everyone must wear a condom, even those wanting to get pregnant. Now do people want to get Covid? Some do I’m sure. But many of us really are not concerned whether we get it or not. Most of us probably already had it. We are taking protection around vulnerable people. And you know what vulnerable people should do if a pandemic is targeting them? STAY HOME.
Now, the healthy non-mask wearers stay home or do things outside and cannot go in the store. But the fearful sick people are all gathering together in 1 place. The healthy people are ordering on line so the sick, fearful can shop in store. And they are getting it because they are exposed even though they have this false sense of security. The healthy are shamed while the sick are making irresponsible decisions.
We read the data. Read the studies. We want to move on with life. Masks do not turn the tide of infection rates. Show me one real world chart where it turns the tide and ruins the curve we have seen most everywhere.
8 months in, and I only wore a mask a couple times due to things I had to do... and one time to get a Slurpee for my kids. And by mask I mean bandana. My kids have never worn 1, though we keep in the car for emergencies. We also have our doctor’s Note— our doctor— who states they should not wear a mask. Is our doctor not scientific? Or is the fact that his patients generally don’t get sick by following his advice too anecdotal? You know what we do? Preventative care. Go outside. Be active. Vitamin C. Zinc. Mostly healthy diets.
If masks were so important, why did they not become mandated in most places until after lockdowns were lifted? Why are they mandatory when the goal was to flatten the curve— it never was to eliminate Covid? Why did Target begin their mask mandate August 1? Why did pro-mask research only come out since Covid? Why was all the old research discarded?
And I ask again, since NO ONE has taken on the data in the OP... why was Hawaii’s rate the worst it has been post-mandate? Why is Miami-Dade the major hot spot in Florida when they have had the mask mandate way longer than most of the state? Why is the curve the same most everywhere, regardless if mandate was enacted or not?
Simple answer: masks— in the real world— do not work.
If we were afraid or immuno-compromised, you know what we would have done? Stayed home.
Back before mandatory masking— March-April-May— that’s how it was. People scared of Covid wore a mask or stayed home. The rest of us lived our lives and took the risks we saw fit.
Mask mandates and sex is saying that everyone must wear a condom, even those wanting to get pregnant. Now do people want to get Covid? Some do I’m sure. But many of us really are not concerned whether we get it or not. Most of us probably already had it. We are taking protection around vulnerable people. And you know what vulnerable people should do if a pandemic is targeting them? STAY HOME.
Now, the healthy non-mask wearers stay home or do things outside and cannot go in the store. But the fearful sick people are all gathering together in 1 place. The healthy people are ordering on line so the sick, fearful can shop in store. And they are getting it because they are exposed even though they have this false sense of security. The healthy are shamed while the sick are making irresponsible decisions.
We read the data. Read the studies. We want to move on with life. Masks do not turn the tide of infection rates. Show me one real world chart where it turns the tide and ruins the curve we have seen most everywhere.
8 months in, and I only wore a mask a couple times due to things I had to do... and one time to get a Slurpee for my kids. And by mask I mean bandana. My kids have never worn 1, though we keep in the car for emergencies. We also have our doctor’s Note— our doctor— who states they should not wear a mask. Is our doctor not scientific? Or is the fact that his patients generally don’t get sick by following his advice too anecdotal? You know what we do? Preventative care. Go outside. Be active. Vitamin C. Zinc. Mostly healthy diets.
If masks were so important, why did they not become mandated in most places until after lockdowns were lifted? Why are they mandatory when the goal was to flatten the curve— it never was to eliminate Covid? Why did Target begin their mask mandate August 1? Why did pro-mask research only come out since Covid? Why was all the old research discarded?
And I ask again, since NO ONE has taken on the data in the OP... why was Hawaii’s rate the worst it has been post-mandate? Why is Miami-Dade the major hot spot in Florida when they have had the mask mandate way longer than most of the state? Why is the curve the same most everywhere, regardless if mandate was enacted or not?
Simple answer: masks— in the real world— do not work.
a reply to: SuperStudChuck
That's the thing... some of us have been concerned enough to verify information, watch for trends, and try to analyze the data coming out. Others just listen to the guy behind the desk on TV telling them what to do and blindly assume he knows everything. Now, you tell me which group is more concerned?
Hint: it's not the group blindly listening to the guy on TV.
And still, I can live my life being careful about spreading anything without trying to control what others do or wear, with a minimum of interference. I haven't sat home and cowered yet... if I need to go to town I go to town. If someone comes to my house, I shake their hand. Got visited by a census worker this year... invited him in, answered his questions, and asked him if he would remove his mask so I could hear him clearly. He seemed to appreciate that.
What I couldn't fix? The Great Toilet Paper Shortage of 2020... had to scavenge a little on that one. The rolling shortages on everything from Ramen noodles to ground beef... thankfully I keep a backstock. The closing of smaller specialty stores for a while... had to order tobacco on line once, so I started keeping a backstock on that too. People going nuts over a piece of cloth... saw one guy literally melt down in a parking lot because some people in the store weren't wearing masks (like me and my friend). We both just looked at each other, shrugged, and hoped he had enough functioning neural capacity to not try to pull us in the debate and get himself all hurt and stuff. Turns out he did.
I also can''t go out to my favorite restaurant any more... ever. They're closed for good now, not coming back. Not many substitutes here in this small town either. So I guess it's fast food for the foreseeable future if the wife doesn't want to cook. Not a lot of fun driving 40-50 miles to find a good sit-down restaurant.
But at least you found one. Congrats! Next time you're there, enjoy a bite for me.
TheRedneck
We read the data. Read the studies. We want to move on with life. Masks do not turn the tide of infection rates. Show me one real world chart where it turns the tide and ruins the curve we have seen most everywhere.
That's the thing... some of us have been concerned enough to verify information, watch for trends, and try to analyze the data coming out. Others just listen to the guy behind the desk on TV telling them what to do and blindly assume he knows everything. Now, you tell me which group is more concerned?
Hint: it's not the group blindly listening to the guy on TV.
And still, I can live my life being careful about spreading anything without trying to control what others do or wear, with a minimum of interference. I haven't sat home and cowered yet... if I need to go to town I go to town. If someone comes to my house, I shake their hand. Got visited by a census worker this year... invited him in, answered his questions, and asked him if he would remove his mask so I could hear him clearly. He seemed to appreciate that.
What I couldn't fix? The Great Toilet Paper Shortage of 2020... had to scavenge a little on that one. The rolling shortages on everything from Ramen noodles to ground beef... thankfully I keep a backstock. The closing of smaller specialty stores for a while... had to order tobacco on line once, so I started keeping a backstock on that too. People going nuts over a piece of cloth... saw one guy literally melt down in a parking lot because some people in the store weren't wearing masks (like me and my friend). We both just looked at each other, shrugged, and hoped he had enough functioning neural capacity to not try to pull us in the debate and get himself all hurt and stuff. Turns out he did.
I also can''t go out to my favorite restaurant any more... ever. They're closed for good now, not coming back. Not many substitutes here in this small town either. So I guess it's fast food for the foreseeable future if the wife doesn't want to cook. Not a lot of fun driving 40-50 miles to find a good sit-down restaurant.
But at least you found one. Congrats! Next time you're there, enjoy a bite for me.
TheRedneck
a reply to: TheRedneck
And considering that masks, depending upon style, restrict air intake and cause rebreathing of our toxic exhaust breath. That leads to reduced oxygen levels and increased carbon dioxide levels, most unhealthy.
And considering that masks, depending upon style, restrict air intake and cause rebreathing of our toxic exhaust breath. That leads to reduced oxygen levels and increased carbon dioxide levels, most unhealthy.
a reply to: SuperStudChuck
This is only true if Trump is the genius he, and some of his most brainwashed supporters on this site, believe he is, which he isn't.
He wasn't playing 4D Chess with the press. Honestly some people will believe anything their Great Leader says. It's actually pretty tragic!
This is only true if Trump is the genius he, and some of his most brainwashed supporters on this site, believe he is, which he isn't.
He wasn't playing 4D Chess with the press. Honestly some people will believe anything their Great Leader says. It's actually pretty tragic!
I don't like wearing a mask, so I don't go out much. It's pretty simple.
Even so, I managed to get what I'm pretty sure is a minor cold. I'm not sure how. I haven't gone out much, and since it's an ordinance, I wear the stupid mask when I do. If they're what it's said they are ... then I shouldn't be ill, amirite?
Still, because I'm responsible, I did what any normal person does. We stayed home last night and practiced via Zoom instead of physically going to practice even though it was barely a fever worthy of being called one. And this morning, I have no fever, just feel a bit run down.
Even so, I managed to get what I'm pretty sure is a minor cold. I'm not sure how. I haven't gone out much, and since it's an ordinance, I wear the stupid mask when I do. If they're what it's said they are ... then I shouldn't be ill, amirite?
Still, because I'm responsible, I did what any normal person does. We stayed home last night and practiced via Zoom instead of physically going to practice even though it was barely a fever worthy of being called one. And this morning, I have no fever, just feel a bit run down.
originally posted by: SuperStudChuck
originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: SuperStudChuck
I don't think anyone is claiming that masks eliminate risk. Only that they reduce risk. So going out with a mask still presents a slight increase in risk, compared with staying in. It's just a matter of degree.
They stats in OP disprove that claim that masks reduce risk. Covid will run its course with or without masks. Masks have not changed the trajectory at all.
Sorry, dude, but the "stats" in your OP come from some rando anti-masker on Twitter who cherry picked data to fit his argument. They neither prove nor disprove a damn thing,
Rational Ground Post
Rando Dude's Post
a reply to: GravitySucks
The point on Rational Ground is that if there seems to be no clear correlation that masks do anything one way or the other, then they're not doing anything one way or the other. They're basically a placebo.
The point on Rational Ground is that if there seems to be no clear correlation that masks do anything one way or the other, then they're not doing anything one way or the other. They're basically a placebo.
a reply to: ketsuko
Rational Ground picked these charts (and charts only) from an unknown entity seemingly associated with them on Twitter.
The charts are cherry picked data with no true studies behind them and no methodology, proving nothing one way or another.
I'd stick to actual studies by actual professionals whose credentials aren't "cereal" and who don't have a clear bias. Like this one [Link], which is not Covid-19 specific.
And while I agree there is plenty of disagreement or at least conflicting information among real studies, they also contain a helluva lot more data and reasoning and information.
Suggest that maybe the OP post some of those.
Rational Ground picked these charts (and charts only) from an unknown entity seemingly associated with them on Twitter.
The charts are cherry picked data with no true studies behind them and no methodology, proving nothing one way or another.
I'd stick to actual studies by actual professionals whose credentials aren't "cereal" and who don't have a clear bias. Like this one [Link], which is not Covid-19 specific.
And while I agree there is plenty of disagreement or at least conflicting information among real studies, they also contain a helluva lot more data and reasoning and information.
Suggest that maybe the OP post some of those.
a reply to: GravitySucks
Uh, yeah... from your own link:
"ineffective for controlling seasonal respiratory disease."
"when use of face masks might be greater, pandemic transmission in households could be reduced."
In simple layman's English: "Face masks don't work. But we still think they might. Can we get paid now?"
Thank you. You just proved via your own cherry-picked study that the narrative is false. More tic-tac-toe anyone?
TheRedneck
Uh, yeah... from your own link:
We concluded that household use of face masks is associated with low adherence and is ineffective for controlling seasonal respiratory disease. However, during a severe pandemic when use of face masks might be greater, pandemic transmission in households could be reduced.
"ineffective for controlling seasonal respiratory disease."
"when use of face masks might be greater, pandemic transmission in households could be reduced."
In simple layman's English: "Face masks don't work. But we still think they might. Can we get paid now?"
Thank you. You just proved via your own cherry-picked study that the narrative is false. More tic-tac-toe anyone?
TheRedneck
a reply to: TheRedneck
It was just an example of a real study, dude. I stipulated both this fact and that studies are all over the place.
It was just an example of a real study, dude. I stipulated both this fact and that studies are all over the place.
However, during a severe pandemic when use of face masks might be greater, pandemic transmission in households could be reduced.
a reply to: GravitySucks
Great example then. You still proved the point in the OP with it.
TheRedneck
Great example then. You still proved the point in the OP with it.
TheRedneck
originally posted by: ketsuko
I don't like wearing a mask, so I don't go out much. It's pretty simple.
Even so, I managed to get what I'm pretty sure is a minor cold. I'm not sure how. I haven't gone out much, and since it's an ordinance, I wear the stupid mask when I do. If they're what it's said they are ... then I shouldn't be ill, amirite?
Still, because I'm responsible, I did what any normal person does. We stayed home last night and practiced via Zoom instead of physically going to practice even though it was barely a fever worthy of being called one. And this morning, I have no fever, just feel a bit run down.
This is normal. If you feel sick stay home. This is also normal: if you are immune-compromised, stay home or take extra precautions.
What is not normal: you feel fine, you are not free to go anywhere because you might get someone sick who is immune-compromised.
originally posted by: GravitySucks
a reply to: TheRedneck
It was just an example of a real study, dude. I stipulated both this fact and that studies are all over the place.
However, during a severe pandemic when use of face masks might be greater, pandemic transmission in households could be reduced.
Agreed. Studies are all over the place because there is 0 correlation. Welcome to the correct side of history. And let’s stop making government and store policies not based off of science.
Don’t fall for science in the lab (controller conditions) is more valuable than science in the real world (uncontrolled conditions). Allan science may be true but in large scale not play out as the lab predicts.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: djz3ro
Trump wasn't playing 4D chess with the media. He was playing tic-tac-toe. And still beating the press like a redheaded stepchild.
Kinda like the OP just did with you...
TheRedneck
I must've missed that part of the thread somehow.
No, just re-read the whole thread and that certainly didn't happen, I guess now that Trump is making stuff up (he is a perfect specimen, he is very young) his supporters must think it's ok too.
American politics are fascinating right now
a reply to: SuperStudChuck
And still yet, thousands of people gather in multiple cities everyday to protest and riot and not a single person gets COVID, the president has a presser at the white house and it's a SUPERSPREADER event. Also, it seems COVID disproportionately infects Republicans in government, how odd.
And still yet, thousands of people gather in multiple cities everyday to protest and riot and not a single person gets COVID, the president has a presser at the white house and it's a SUPERSPREADER event. Also, it seems COVID disproportionately infects Republicans in government, how odd.
a reply to: panoz77
I have said it before: according to everything the "science" is telling us, this is the most highly intelligent virus ever known. It is self-aware, plans out attacks, understands human behavior, is cognizant of political barriers, is capable of recognizing artificial boundaries, seems to have moral values, and can handle high-level decision making. It also seems to vote Democrat.
TheRedneck
I have said it before: according to everything the "science" is telling us, this is the most highly intelligent virus ever known. It is self-aware, plans out attacks, understands human behavior, is cognizant of political barriers, is capable of recognizing artificial boundaries, seems to have moral values, and can handle high-level decision making. It also seems to vote Democrat.
TheRedneck
a reply to: panoz77
Is that just a guess or do you know that as fact, maybe you have a link???
No mask in a confined area could be why.
multiple cities everyday to protest and riot and not a single person gets COVID
Is that just a guess or do you know that as fact, maybe you have a link???
it seems COVID disproportionately infects Republicans in government, how odd.
No mask in a confined area could be why.
edit on 10-10-2020 by Kurokage because: (no reason given)
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