reducing a person down to their worst qualities, and judging them on that forever.

originally posted by: network dude

Defacing a statue of an abolitionist. Likely because they had no idea what that word meant.

You can't even debate such ignorance. A debate with them is just them screaming total nonsense spraying spittle in your face...lol

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: ketsuko

They've broadened it to include just about anything Western Civ now, but they've hated Western Civ for a while -- too many old, dead white guys. Western Civ is the embodiment of the White Patriarchy and oppression for the radical left.

It's looking like they'll even ban the Enlightenment which made it possible for them to hold their precious hatreds.

They are also extremely ignorant as the narrative is just as you say anything western culture. Why would you take down a statue of Hans Christian Heg, Lincoln or Grant to name a few...

Oh! OH! I know this one! Because they are STATUES!

originally posted by: SeaWorthy

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: Asktheanimals

Our educational system has failed them miserably and the digital reality they are absorbed in to requires no effort, no sacrifice, nothing real. They are disconnected from reality in a number of fundamental ways and are similarly strangers to the very culture that gave them birth.

OR

This is the most educated enlightened youth we've ever had. Maybe the old guard is just afraid of change, any change that they for a moment don't want to admit the change might be for the better.

I never see change that addresses the true problems mentioned.
Like why should we expect young people who live in lesser tax areas to go to foul schools with little to help them get ahead.
There are many issues and not many of them will improve by removing a statue of some old hero.

Exactly, if they want change, then crusade on education reform. Why should kids in those areas be trapped in those schools?

We know why it happens ... it's because the politicians are invested in keeping the system the way it is. The school system is good business for too many people who care not one bit about the actual children being screwed over. There is a quote out there by the teachers' union head where it's actually said that they'd care about kids when kids vote.

Now that isn't to say that all the problems are entirely on the education system. There are problems in the neighborhoods too, but the parents who want their kids to get solid educations from those areas do not have any choice.

Where is the outcry on that?

For that matter, why doesn't BLM invest in the families of its communites?

So much money goes to democrat campaigns and other straight up political things, but nothing to family or youth outreach where they could really make some difference. Why not? Why no educational change? With all that money, they could make some true impact from the ground up as much as they agitate.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

I love how we all just touched on a root problem many people would get behind.

Generally, I hate government spending.... But I view education as investing. It's possible to get a high ROI in that realm if it's done right. Problem is we haven't been doing it right while also spending massive amounts of money on it. I also think this is one subject that would have incredibly broad impacts over lots of other wedge issues if done correctly.... Unemployment, mass incarceration, the lack of personal wealth, and many others.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

For one thing, we need a system that is allowed to diversify to actually serve students. The public schools are viewed as a catch-all where every kid needs to go regardless of need and ability. Kids are individuals with individual levels of talent, ability, and need.

One child might be super bright and able to learn at a rate for outpacing his peers, but he's kneecapped at a public school.

One child might be super talented in some special way, and it's unfair not to nurture that talent even if he isn't super smart educationally.

One child might have a specific learning disability that would handicap him in a general educational setting even if he's a very bright and capable child, but with a classroom geared toward supporting the disability or specialized educational processes to mitigate that disability, he can achieve just as much as his peers.

Throw all these kids in the same room, and it's a problem. Let schools develop to address specialized settings and needs, and you have something special for our kids. We don't have that system now unless you have very deep pockets.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

I love how we all just touched on a root problem many people would get behind.

Generally, I hate government spending.... But I view education as investing. It's possible to get a high ROI in that realm if it's done right. Problem is we haven't been doing it right while also spending massive amounts of money on it. I also think this is one subject that would have incredibly broad impacts over lots of other wedge issues if done correctly.... Unemployment, mass incarceration, the lack of personal wealth, and many others.

It is funny how the Conservatives push for charter schools and vouchers and the left kill it. Obama/Biden killed the charter school bill, as example.

Their reason is it would take money from poor school districts that have union teachers etc as these poor kids living in crappy places would have a choice of going to better schools out of these dysfunctional areas and they would do it.

Think about that for a minute and then understand how a place like Chicago can be so bad under 90 years of democratic rule.

a reply to: Xtrozero

And you see the arguments from the resident lefties here:

Even if the kids do get a voucher, their parents wouldn't be able to get them to that school, but with the public school, they get a bus ... and on and on and on ...

We're talking about parents so desperate that those kids would live in a tent if they had to.

a reply to: network dude

. I'm just irritated at the way this is all being done and CONDONED.

Right. So imagine me, and others like me with a degree of liberal bent who are pissed as hell at those who are tearing down these monuments and works of art in the ''name'' of being liberal. Not from my dictionary Dude.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I'm open to the charter concept. So long as it factors in what happens when certain schools buckle because no one wants their kids there. If there was a contingency for what happens when there are more kids than schools in an area it would be more appealing to me.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Generally, I hate government spending.... But I view education as investing.

Right! I think a root of all those other problems could be helped right here. Education should be equal to every American, instead it is about money and the colleges sell themselves to Chinese students and so on.

I hear people say we are in America, these people could succeed if they want. Well uneducated people from lines of uneducated people can't really do that.Tax should be combined and doled out equally on amount of students in any school, why would any person disagree with this as just like you say it is an investment in our country.

a reply to: network dude

i understand your point. but there are monuments that glorify and those that exist to remember something terrible, the holocaust memorial in berlin for example.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

Except that isn't quite how it happens.

Some places spend way more per student, even some of the worst places, then places that have good outcomes. DC Public schools spend a lot per student. At one point, if a parent could access that amount per year for their kid and then come up somewhere between 5 and 10K/year on top of it, they'd have enough to send that kid to Sidwell Friends. That gives you an idea of how much per student they spend in the DC public school system. You can't tell me there is less than 10K per year difference in the quality of education there.

So if we know the money isn't going toward educating kids ... where is it going? I'd guess you need to look into the bureaucracy and administration.

originally posted by: oloufo
a reply to: network dude

i understand your point. but there are monuments that glorify and those that exist to remember something terrible, the holocaust memorial in berlin for example.

The Sphinx and Great Pyramids are pretty glorious examples of slave labor, should they be dismantled and cast aside too?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: CriticalStinker

For one thing, we need a system that is allowed to diversify to actually serve students. The public schools are viewed as a catch-all where every kid needs to go regardless of need and ability. Kids are individuals with individual levels of talent, ability, and need.

One child might be super bright and able to learn at a rate for outpacing his peers, but he's kneecapped at a public school.

One child might be super talented in some special way, and it's unfair not to nurture that talent even if he isn't super smart educationally.

One child might have a specific learning disability that would handicap him in a general educational setting even if he's a very bright and capable child, but with a classroom geared toward supporting the disability or specialized educational processes to mitigate that disability, he can achieve just as much as his peers.

Throw all these kids in the same room, and it's a problem. Let schools develop to address specialized settings and needs, and you have something special for our kids. We don't have that system now unless you have very deep pockets.

This is a complex issue. In Germany we call it 'inclusion'.

Survey: More than three-quarters of the German population are convinced of the positive effects of inclusion at school. Respondents say that an inclusive school system leads to greater tolerance, better cooperation and a greater willingness to get involved, and has a positive effect on personal development. However, inclusive education is judged more cautiously when it comes to questions of promoting the performance of children: Only 60 percent of the total population believe that an inclusive school system prepares them well for working life.

There are, however, cases in which the system is overstretched. It is worth taking a closer look at these. If you want to see a film that leaves you helpless and sad at the end, but which describes a reality unknown to many, then watch 'Systemsprenger'. I have rarely been so depressed after a movie. The leading actress is sensational.

a reply to: network dude

Look how terrible the ATS site had to be for it to be removed from the internet...the people there and sharing of ideas must have been pure evil and we can still find kiddy porn and hardcore gore on the web like people being beheaded. How terrible it must have been On that site...

When things are gone completely, people can make up all kinds of things.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: SeaWorthy

Except that isn't quite how it happens.

Some places spend way more per student, even some of the worst places, then places that have good outcomes. DC Public schools spend a lot per student. At one point, if a parent could access that amount per year for their kid and then come up somewhere between 5 and 10K/year on top of it, they'd have enough to send that kid to Sidwell Friends. That gives you an idea of how much per student they spend in the DC public school system. You can't tell me there is less than 10K per year difference in the quality of education there.

So if we know the money isn't going toward educating kids ... where is it going? I'd guess you need to look into the bureaucracy and administration.

I read a book a few years back, the guy was an expert on just that, he said the schools are aloud to take extra money per year and invest the money in stocks and bonds but they did not have to count that money or its income earned the following year. The profit on that money was paid out to the heads of departments in the system.

Not sure if i got that right but it works like that he said everywhere in the US. A HUGE scam.

I see a lot of the problem beginning with the words we have now learned to us. We say government money, the Government is not supposed to have any property or money, it is and used to be called PUBLIC money PUBLIC property.
Now that People feel and express the words Government property and Government money they easily forget the laws the money the property belong to and ar made by the PUBLIC. There is no THEY the Government there is only the People.

originally posted by: underpass61

originally posted by: oloufo
a reply to: network dude

i understand your point. but there are monuments that glorify and those that exist to remember something terrible, the holocaust memorial in berlin for example.

The Sphinx and Great Pyramids are pretty glorious examples of slave labor, should they be dismantled and cast aside too?

i was discussing this with a friend of mine lately. i had the same thought. you could say: these are buildings that also have another aspect in them: the skill and genius of our ancestors when it comes to architecture. but i agree with you, consequently they should be torn down. but then we wouldn't be any better than the islamic state. its complicated.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: Asktheanimals

Our educational system has failed them miserably and the digital reality they are absorbed in to requires no effort, no sacrifice, nothing real. They are disconnected from reality in a number of fundamental ways and are similarly strangers to the very culture that gave them birth.

OR

This is the most educated enlightened youth we've ever had. Maybe the old guard is just afraid of change, any change that they for a moment don't want to admit the change might be for the better.

Change to WHAT?

No one has ever articulated what they want to change it to. And that is the problem. They don't actually know. All they do know is that they hate what they have, or at least they think they do.

Allegory of the Cave

Allegory of the cave

Socrates suggests that the shadows are reality for the prisoners because they have never seen anything else; they do not realize that what they see are shadows of objects in front of a fire, much less that these objects are inspired by real things outside the cave which they do not see (514b–515a).[3]

The fire, or human made light, and the puppets, used to make shadows, are done by the artists. This can be compared to how illusions are made with light and sound today, with electronics, videos, movies, and 3D visuals. Plato, however, indicates that the fire is also the political doctrine that is taught in a nation state. The artists use light and shadows to teach the dominant doctrines of a time and place

The system has been set in place for times like these. The further we get from critical thinking and philosophical thoughts, the more we believe the shadows are real. This is what happens with the conflict between science and religion.
Only believe what you see and dare not think about anything outside of the seen reality, the hard facts.

a reply to: oloufo

Your inclusion is called mainstreaming here.

I don't disagree with some of the theory behind mainstreaming, but it can be detrimental.

Take my own kid. He's a bright kid, above average but not Wile E. Coyote supergenius level. He does have two learning disabilites. One is a hearing disability. His ears work, but the auditory system in his brain is either delayed in development or genetically a bit dysfunctional, so what his ears hear is garbled and unclear. He's about 60% accurate.

Functionally, he misses directions and gets mega distracted because hearing and the concentration it requires fatigues him quickly. He's been in martial arts for almost three years and the discipline has improved his physical self-control and his mental stamina, but it doesn't improve his hearing. Maturity also helps.

Then he has dysgraphia which impairs his handwriting ability. Give him enough time, and he can produce a legible copy, but it's like freehand copying a drawing. He develops no automaticity with it. And it's the variant that impairs spelling, so there are days when he struggles to remember to write his own name still. Otherwise, he has a fantastic memory.

Public school is tough. His two problems make it difficult. He needs a lot of accommodation (technology support, closed captioning, etc.), and he's already been bullied by one teacher who refused to accept that he had a learning disability because of his apparent brightness. She decided he was being willfully disobedient, not demonstrating a persistent disability.

There are specialized schools out there who could deal with his constellation of issues and understand them while providing a regular education, but we cannot produce the more than 10K/year in tuition they often require. A voucher system would allow us access to our own tax dollars and allow us that educational freedom. It would do the same for the inner city parent facing a school that's more like an insane asylum.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

I'm open to the charter concept. So long as it factors in what happens when certain schools buckle because no one wants their kids there. If there was a contingency for what happens when there are more kids than schools in an area it would be more appealing to me.

I think anyway to get good kids out of bad areas, turn bad kids into good kids or just provide choices to poor people who have no choices is a good thing no matter how it might negatively effect a "bad" school no one wants to go to. Deal with those cases as they come up.