Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

Go look at the stars....now, they seem easier to see the small ones for some reason....swear....sumthins up...

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
if you're looking for the truth scripture says that the Stars scream creation at you all night long and then the sky turns blue

a reply to: Pachomius

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

a reply to: Pachomius

I dunno, I think most religions are bull#, apart from the suspiciously similar few things all religions seem to say in different ways. Those things about striving to be a good, rational human being and such.

Then there's the strange personal life experiences i've had, and the weird # i've experienced on a couple different hallucinogens while contemplating my personality traits and various events in life both in and out of my control.

These things have come to make me realize, to the best of my own experience, God is that voice in your head that makes you do the hard things in life that are usually unpleasant but make life worth living and make you into a less #ty person. Every time you've taken that risk and bettered your life, every time you've sat there and decided not to punch a mother #er in the face after they mouth you off, every time you #ing wake up and do the things you need to do for you and your family no matter how much you wanna wake up and burn the #ing world down or cry in the corner wishing things would get better.

That's God slapping you in the #ing face being like...snap outta that #. You're human, you've got life for a reason, deal with that #, do the stuff you're supposed to do and live life well, it's the only one you and all the people around you have, each one has meaning and it's up to everyone to help ourselves and eachother be the best and all of us can be in our short times.

a reply to: Blue Shift
This is the OP:
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?


You must, Blue Shift, in the course of life come to the word in English, God, suppose you just tell in this thread what you understand by that word.

a reply to: Akragon

your "Christian" leanings are showing lol

Look back over the stuff I added, it clearly indicates that I have gone through a Christian Catechism or three. Thoughts change over time. I'm afraid that, as much as I like Christianity, and owe much to it, I wouldn't be able to honestly pass a catechism.

The part that you quoted is actually kind of a 12 step thing like AA: not that I've ever gone through one, I've seen some literature and heard some stories.

My last hiatus from ATS was a whole year. What a time to return! The sunset time. Glad to see you too!

Its not about good and bad deeds....thats the devils speel.....its about life and death.......the two trees knowledge.........and life.......devil played the trees as a head fake.......

A philosopher l ady commented the europe bunch is different than the north
Merica bunch......t
Europe used rationalism in life and America uses...........moral rationalism........adds the vertical.....not just left and right.....republican and Democrat...........vertical thinking means remembering God in our walk.......a reply to: dug88

a reply to: Pachomius

Lets say that God is hydrogen. The first atom. 1 electron, 1 proton
Everything in the universe was made by it. The properties of hydrogen are replicated in all energy and matter.
Nothing could exist without it.

a reply to: GBP/JPY
Imma miss your insane rambling when this place is gone.

I'll just offer this:

If we are talking about the god of christianity, then there are two ways we can go with it (I am not picking on christians, just staying within the realm I know). One possibility is no, god does not exist. The other possibility is yes, he exists, but he evolves as a being.

For starters, some of the questionable ideas and rules of the old testament are not represented in the new testament. The god of the old testament was a terrifying entity, but was benevolent in the new testament. In the OT, it talks about how to properly beat your slaves and when that is acceptable. It gives monetary values to people of different genders and ages, with man being worth the most, etc...

Additionally, the various branches change with the times. What the churches thought was okay in the 1800s is very different from what they believe today. All the time you will see headlines where the pope says "x" is no longer a sin or whatever.

So either he doesn't exist, or he is an imperfect being who is still learning and growing like we are.

a reply to: Pachomius
The only person that can solve it would be God himself.

But he's awfully quiet on the matter.

If there is any morality....at all anywhere.....in any amount or form then.....God exists.....


a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Reasoning...by itself cannot get you to morality.....

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Meaning....we have no ability to have meaning without morality....

A meaning for life....in our walk......gone without morality

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Greater minds than ours have bent themselves to the tricky question, whether God exists. They have not really got very far.

At the end of the day it is a personal choice. Each person should make that determination based on their own perceptions and experience.

- Is there a God? Yes / No / Maybe.
- If "Yes", then is proof required? No / Yes and have found the proof, but you won't understand and I cannot really explain.

a reply to: Pachomius

I think your premise is wrong, "honest, productive intelligent thinking" based on "truths, facts, logic and the history of ideas" is when it comes to the almighty pretty much impossible.
What truths are you speaking about?
What might those facts be?

It's like you're saying: "Now that we know and understand everything, based on an unfailable record of everything that ever was and will be..." - I don't see that.

Before we can determine what the entirety of the whole universe is all about we'd need to make some smaller steps like:
What is consciousness?
Why is everything seemingly so fine tuned?
What is (space-)time?
Where are the missing/dark bits of the universe?

As it is however we can discuss "God" but it will never be more than sharing anecdotes, philosophical/metaphysical musings and maybe personal experiences.

In the mist of the unknown it's also not like "God" seems to be alone in the echelons above our ability to transcend the inner dimension of existence.
Somemore "facts" & "truths" we'd have to determine before we can go and face the boss. Like aliens, ghosts, demons, "the machine", ...


But if you really really want to know what my personal take is, in short:
Everything is alive, consciousness came before matter and the sum of the all is "God", as such it has no personality and no agenda, except one: birthing more cosmical-souls like itself.

the problem with this question of proof of a "god" (note for purposes of discussion god being some entity ) is this .

No one can agree on a set of criteria to prove (or disprove) there is a "god"

you have three sets of people in this debate.

one.. those that will not accept there is a "god" no matter what or will "move the goalposts" whenever that view is threatened.

they also will mock and dismiss those who do not share their view.

example when some unexplained phenomenon is found in the universe or that phenomenon is against the rules that have been "previously accepted"

also "those that believe XX are ignorant fools" or "science deniers"

One commonly used comment / view in this thinking is "we just havent found the proof/cause/element/reason" this happened.

two... those that believe it blindly with not even a shred of evidence... now this isnt average religious (any denomination or belief) person since they (at minimum) accept some examples be from a "bible" or things around them (ill get to that in a minute) ..

then

three... those that believe in a religious principle as guide to what they see or those that see things they cannot explain thus run the gambit of believer to think its possible..


the overall problem is it is quite hard to come up with a definitive proof that is (for lack of a better term) "case closed"

but it is quite provable that a "god" is POSSIBLE.

just one example is this

anyone who has ever worked as an EMT, a combat medic or in a hospital have seen things that defy all "non god" explanation .

have seen people receive horrific injuries that no matter what treatment / people are available (and especially when such things are not ) by every logical, scientific and medical standard should be dead, but survived.

that have seen recoveries that by the same standards same thing

along with medical conditions (ex comas) that recovery has no rational explanation .

also in the same vein people with easily treated (or has been treated) injuries, situations, ect that just die for no apparent reason..

an example is one spouse died and the other (that is in reasonable health) go very quickly after "in their sleep".

to a number three person (aka open mind) this would be EVIDENCE that there may be a god.

a number one would just say "we just havent found the reason/explanation yet, but we will in time"

thus the problem with getting an answer to the quesiton

scrounger

Scripture proves we are in a simulation......the math......when we tap on the table......its simulated hardness is just the electricity in the molecules.......the bonds.....just electricity......Paul says what we see is temporal.....

a reply to: Archivalist

Consciousness and epistemology do not prove the existence of gods

a reply to: SecretKnowledge


Those don't prove a god doesn't exist.

demiurge: defn:

(in Gnosticism and other theological systems) a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.

a reply to: Pachomius

The concept of a Christian Deity or any kind of God who has any kind of hand in our affairs is completely and utterly preposterous.

There is no way to prove one way or another if we were created. I we were created, our creator abandoned us long ago or just doesn't care enough to act.

I am an atheist when it comes to man made gods but agnostic in the grand scheme of things.